Central and South Asian DNA Paper

We discussed this cultural flow into the steppe from Iran, Majkop and south of the Caucasus back in 2015.

This is with regard specifically to Kurgans:

" Originally Posted by AngelaThis is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from 2012. I don't know if there's anything more recent. http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2...tskhelauri.pdf

Maciamo discussed it here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...hlight=kurgans

As for the African R1b, it is all V88, the same as in Egypt and the Levant, so it is highly unlikely that this R1b migration to Africa had anything to do with Indo-Europeans or Maykop. It is more probably an offshoot of Late Paleolithic/Mesolithic Middle Eastern hunter-gatherers or even Neolithic Levantines that split in various directions and ended up in various parts of Africa.
I thought R1b-V88 originates from Europe, no?
 
sources please ..........you will find that the people I noted are not referred to as semetic, neither are armenians or yazidis
I agree with this neither were native Anatolian.Hittites. When Europeans evolved as a race they went through the Fertile Cresent and the Steppes they did not skip through Central Asia Caucasus or Western Anatolia that i'd love to see unless they had wings! They did skip over Arabia though. Anyway Arabics from the Gulf have quite a significant SSA admixture.
 
(Bicicleur) so, in your opinion, Mycenian Greek is also MLBA steppe in origin, and not Anatolian
the same for Armenian?
>>>>
Yes, but heavily diluted MLBA steppe and the Proto-Greek language per se, not just a dialectal offshoot of Late PIE, in my opinion was born already in a heavily EEF-shifted population, very unlike their "ancestral" IE speakers, due to the extensive mixing of a (south)western Steppe population that, in fact, may already have been genetically and culturally influenced by EEF Old European cultures since centuries earlier. In sum, I think Mycenaean Greek, with its quite profound changes even in vocabulary, was the language of a mixed people, brought by a minority of MLBA steppe conquerors to a majority of local EEF Balkanic people (the exact same process seem to have happened in Late Bronze Age Armenia), maybe descending from a branch of Ezero or Cernavoda cultures. They wouldn't have come from the steppes directly, but rather to the North(east) Balkans and only centuries later, already belonging to a different language and culture, migrated southwards to Greece to form Mycenaean Greek and Mycenaean culture. That explains the small but still existing affinity with the MLBA steppe in the Mycenaean samples. But an origin like that of the Anatolian branch? Most unlikely. Their language was MUCH more akin to Indo-Iranian than to Hittite or Luwian.

at 1928 archaiologists believed it was the Dorian descent,
from Chetina-Vucedol down to Peloponese,

before few years, it was the Mycenean descent.

That theory is very strong to Academics of Greece,
yet always seemed problematic,

watching the map of true Mycenean sites,
it seems difficult from North, rather came from minor Asia dirrect

while the ones who possibly came from above Black sea might be the Greko-Brygians
Yet the above is not a proven theory,

you see we have 2 archaiological evedences,
one from Vucedol
one from Arzawwa-Asuwa
and 2 not connected areas.

Proto-Greek 2500-3000 BC
300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png



Mycenean world.

bronzeage.jpg


Mycenean core
mykene-1400-100-eaa.png




Greece is behind the IE theory search,
When Georgiev at 1981 already spoted and found proto-Greek
IE theory was major denied from many 'scholars' just for political and nationalistc reasons, or stupid thinking,
a problem that always existed everywhere, but in Balkans still remain,
we Needed to reach 1990's if remember 1994 when University of Epirus Ioannina started to hire a Greek specialist philologist in IE,
and make a search,
Today there are people who still deny the IE,
But search is done and teached in all Greek Universities, and very fast.


to end,
the 3 major Linguistic theories

1 Greaco-Phrygian with Brygian as outer Thracian
2 Greaco-Aryan it is a wide theory and know her,
3 Greaco-Armenian proved at around 2004-2011 by my favourite Linguists, Green and Atkinson, (Green Atkinson and Underhill is the last attested Linguistic map)

So Connectivity of Mycenean with Armenian is also established not only by geneticks,
but from Linguistic also,

and the problem to finalize that theory is Thracian and Duridanov,
cause if the Thracian word Muca is also Mucenae and Armenian, then we have solve the problem, and Lower Thracian is also to that Group.
but if is not, then Thracian goes tottaly to Yamnaa's and Balt-Slav-Germanic linguistic group.

Mycenean is a trully deep IE culture, not only language,
with very low, almost non existing, Not only Asian steppe, but also Euro-Asian, (notice almost, so not to be missunderstood)
a Trully S Caucasian.
 
I will list you few reasons why I think Akkadians did not come down from North.


1. There is no sign of anything Semitic during Sumerian period North of them. The only people known are 1. Hurrian like people and the Gutians.
2. Actually Akkadian text themselves attest East Semitic tribes settling from the West into Sumer which formed them.

3. Offshots of Akkadians aka Assyrians calling themselves "conquerers" of Subaru (North Mesopotamia) doesn't sound very local to me if you call yourself a conquerer.
4.No need for Semitic to evolve further East because Iran_N ancestry is already heavily involved in South_Levant_ eneolithic with yDNA J popping up next to typical proto Afro-Asiatic E1b.

So yes you are correct in arguing that some J people came down from the mountains in helping to form the Semites, but these guys actually came down and moved directly into the Levant. What I am trying to explain is you don't need to have Semites evolve or Akkadians come down from the North to explain the Iran_N ancestry in Semites, because it is already there in the South of Levant during late Neolithic.


Well, ultimately we seem to think more or less the same thing, that is, the same "architecture" of the formation of the Proto-Semitic people, only with some 600 or 700 kilometers of difference apart from each posited homeland. But I still have to say why I think the most likely scenario is that the earliest Proto-Semitic expansion came from the north/northwest of the Levant, almost bordering on Anatolia (yes, I concede that other Semitic-speaking areas may well have existed, but they weren't the main source of the Semitic-speaking Bronze Age expansion). There are several reasons for that, which I'll point out below:

1) The three other non-Akkadian kingdoms and ethnicities that are first attested in documents lived in the north, not in the South Levant: Eblaites in Northwestern Syria, Martu/Amurru in Central/Eastern Syria, the Assyrians referred as people originating in their main city of Assur, Northern Mesopotamia.

2) The Akkadians first gained political relevance with Sargon expanding their power from the Sumerian city of Kish, which was, coincidentally or not, one of the northernmost of the relevant Sumerian cities.

3) Before their wide expansion, Hurrians lived north of Mesopotamia and Levant, in the Armenian Highlands/Southeastern Anatolia, not in the place I'm talking of as a possible homeland of Proto-Semitic speakers. As for the Gutians, they were mountain tribes from the Zagros Mountains, not north nor northwest of Sumer, but actually northeast of it in the Zagros Mountains. None of those two peoples seem to have been indigenous to the region we are discussing here, which is the present north of Syria and Iraq near the upper reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates.

4) The location of Akkad, supposed to have been the capital of the Akkadians and their main city when they became a powerful ethnicity in Mesopotamia, wasn't found yet, but it is generally assumed to have been located near the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates, probably near modern Baghdad, so Akkad was north of the vast majority of the Sumerian city-states, and it is from the area just north of the "core" Sumer that the Akkadian expansion came. Not west, south or east.

5) The location where the 1st full Semitic inscriptions appear was not an Akkadian-speaking city, but one with a dialect more similar to Eblaite, and it was in Mari, which was located in central-eastern Syria next to the border with North Iraq.

6) Assyrians were not exactly the Proto-Semitic people, there is actually a ~1,750 years gap between the start of the divergence of Proto-Semitic and the beginning of the Old Assyrian Empire. Assyrians were not even Akkkadians, but a later offshoot from them, and in fact it is at least very interesting to point out that the main Assyrian city, Assur (founded as early as 2,500 BC), was unquestionably in North Mesopotamia. When Assyrians conquered Subaru, they certainly wouldn't feel attached to a land where their ancestors many centuries earlier may have come from, or they may have just referred thmselves as "conquerors" because they were just one, more successful, among many groups in that same region. They really seem to have come from much more restricted and humbler roots (and not in Southern Mesopotamia or Southern Levant, at all). Anyway, Assyrians weren't the "primordial peoples" there any longer. People don't call "homeland" the lands where some (because by then Semitic had completely merged with Sumerians) of their ancestors migrated from long ago, in ancient, pre-literate times they most probably didn't even register the ultimate origins of their people and just forgot them, especially after such intensive cultural changes. That would be like expecting the English to still remember that much of their ancestry derives from Germany/Denmark and thus consider those places their true "homeland", and not foreign land.

7) What would "anything Semitic" be like (or not be like), in fact? Most sources I have read state unambiguously that Akkadians originally "lived to the north of Sumerians", and that in fact matches up with their earliest historic appearances quite well, as I said above. There are actually several archaeological sites in Northern Levant/Mesopotamia that are unquestionably Semitic, very ancient (before 2,500 BC, some even as early as 2,900 BC). Since most of them are in central to north Syria, they clearly point to an origin and expansion from the lands just north and northwest of Sumer proper.

8) Proto-Semitic had words that specifically meant snow, ice, bitumen and naphtha, and as we know snow, ice, bitumen and naphtha are more commonly found in the Northern Levant than in the Southern Levant.

In my opinion, the earliest Proto-Semitic speakers may well have from the South Levant, expanded to the North Levant and, generations later, expanded from there to Mesopotamia by following the down course of the Tigris and Euphrates valley, eventually reaching the Sumerian city-states. No doubt about that. But still from the point of view of southern natives of the Near East, like the Sumerians, that was certainly a movement of peoples from the north and northwest, not from just west of them (that would be more or less Israel/Jordan > Sumer, which is not the movement that we see in the historical and archaeological evidences). In my opinion, actually, the Afro-Asiatic language spread to West Asia from the South Levant, right next to Egypt, and there split into some other branches, but that was some milennia before the Proto-Semites that really expanded their language in the Bronze Age. Undoubtedly there were other Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Levant during the Copper Age/Bronze Age, BUT they weren't the speakers of the one Afro-Asiatic language that came to dominate the entire Fertile Crescent. That was Proto-Semitic, certainly not a linguistic isolate, but rather one among several Afro-Asiatic languages, one that expanded much more than the others and absorbed them. And to me the evidences point to the origin of that language in the Northern Levant (Syria/North Iraq), but not THAT north as you seem to be thinking my position is (since you're talking of Hurrians and Gutians).

You said: 4.No need for Semitic to evolve further East because Iran_N ancestry is already heavily involved in South_Levant_ eneolithic with yDNA J popping up next to typical proto Afro-Asiatic E1b.

Hmm, what you say in that point is very interesting, but I hadn't read about those samples already showing significant proportion of J1 (J1-P58, I hope), Iran_N ancestry and CHG affinities still in the Neolithic and as far from their probable "source" as Southern Levant. What I did read only talked about the growth of those genetic markers/admixtures in the Bronze Age, not still in the Neolithic. That's possibly why I can't imagine what Southern Levant had that the Northern Levant didn't have in order for it to be a much more fitting Proto-Semitic Urheimat than Syria/North Iraq. Can you indicate some good source for me to read better about these findings, their location, haplogroup clades, estimated dates and so on?
 
Samara Russia--Weather temperatures - snow levels; all the information you need to build a wagon for a snowy type winter climate, when migrating North from sunny Iraq 30+ degree weather with a nice house and a crop of dates and grains to transition into living in wagon in -20-30c temperatures with a nice amount of snow.

http://www.pogodaiklimat.ru/climate/28900.htm

Looking up the Tocharian word for snow I came across this possible word for snow.Although Cheug argued for spit and or snot,
. Cheung (2007) argues that the Sanskrit meaning "to stick, remain; sticky fluid" is secondary (possibly of slang origin) "perhaps from whitish bodily fluids which are compared to snow, notably snot and spit".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sneygʷʰ-

Tocharian:
  • Tocharian B: śiñcatstse "snowy" < nominalized *śiñce (“snow”) < *snigʷʰēn
<em><em>
 
Nothing Scythian regrades when someone wants to pay attention I will come back.
 
Those were not actually the arguments I had read for the Indo-Aryan identification of the Mitanni language, but actually phonetic developments that are specific to Indo-Aryan and not to Indo-Iranian (Mitanni like Indo-Aryan and unlike Iranic [h], Mitanni "aika" like Vedic "eka" < Indo-Aryan "aika", unlike Iranic "aiva"), as well as the fact that by 2,000 BC Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian (proper) would probably already have split into two different languages. However, I absolutely agree that the proposition that it wasn't Indo-Aryan nor Iranic, but still a later dialect of a still undivided Indo-Iranian, starting to develop its own characteristics, also makes sense. Geographically the appearance of Mitanni would also be even more explainable if they were just some of the earliest Iranic tribes migrating west.



See as I wrote above many of these typical "Indo_Aryan" phoenitc developements can be considered as Proto Indo_Iranian. The H loud or today X is actually In Proto Indo_Iranian also S. See as example the H loud in middle iranic for sister that evolved from the S sound.

Proto Indo_Iranic was S too. That is my point.
And about the Eka word. If I am correct this should mean one. You know what? Persian Yak and Kurdish Yek/ek. Indo Aryan substrata in West Iranic or simply a coincidence in developement? Aiva is as far as I know connected to Avesta? (East Iranic) and shouldn't be of allot of importance for the developement in West Iranic tongues.

Things are not as crystal clear as we might thing. Many of these "typical" Indo Aryan loudshifts can be easilly assigned to a language that branched of from proto Indo_Iranian. Neither Iranic nor Indo_Aryan yet. And since Indo_Aryan is more archaic naturally more archaic Indo_Iranian words will appear closer to it. That was my argument above and with the S to H shift you gave me a good example.
 
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We discussed this cultural flow into the steppe from Iran, Majkop and south of the Caucasus back in 2015.
This is with regard specifically to Kurgans:
" Originally Posted by Angela This is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from ....
[/I]https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31383-Indo-European-package?highlight=kurgans

I always said there would be a moment when everybody "knew all along". This is that moment apparently.
What Maciamo, like many others, were saying there , and for years, was establishing of the Maykop as the epicenter of r1b and Pie. So, for many, it became the alternative for steppe and it endure up till today.
Well, maykop is almost 2000 years after the events we NOW are defining as the origin of PIE and R1b dispersal and, if anything, this movents of Uruk and Maykop, in bronze age, are the oposite , IMO, of eneolithic movememt from georgia into north caucasus that now and me for long are saying is the Urhmait of PIe and modern clades of r1b.
URUK and maykop, as actually Ubaid, kicked the r1bs pie speakers out of south caucasus. They had a name. Shulaveri Shomu.
Few remaimed.
No we did not all new along...
 
We discussed this cultural flow into the steppe from Iran, Majkop and south of the Caucasus back in 2015.

This is with regard specifically to Kurgans:

" Originally Posted by AngelaThis is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from 2012. I don't know if there's anything more recent. http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2...tskhelauri.pdf

Maciamo discussed it here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...hlight=kurgans


I thought R1b-V88 originates from Europe, no?

Really? Sour grapes, much? Did you know in 2015, 2014, that R1b V88 was from Europe? If you did, congratulations.

Would it really kill you guys to say congratulations to someone else, or maybe just, yeah, you might have been right? Classy, really classy.
 
at 1928 archaiologists believed it was the Dorian descent,
from Chetina-Vucedol down to Peloponese,

before few years, it was the Mycenean descent.

That theory is very strong to Academics of Greece,
yet always seemed problematic,

watching the map of true Mycenean sites,
it seems difficult from North, rather came from minor Asia dirrect

while the ones who possibly came from above Black sea might be the Greko-Brygians
Yet the above is not a proven theory,

you see we have 2 archaiological evedences,
one from Vucedol
one from Arzawwa-Asuwa
and 2 not connected areas.

Proto-Greek 2500-3000 BC
300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png



Mycenean world.

bronzeage.jpg


Mycenean core
mykene-1400-100-eaa.png




Greece is behind the IE theory search,
When Georgiev at 1981 already spoted and found proto-Greek
IE theory was major denied from many 'scholars' just for political and nationalistc reasons, or stupid thinking,
a problem that always existed everywhere, but in Balkans still remain,
we Needed to reach 1990's if remember 1994 when University of Epirus Ioannina started to hire a Greek specialist philologist in IE,
and make a search,
Today there are people who still deny the IE,
But search is done and teached in all Greek Universities, and very fast.


to end,
the 3 major Linguistic theories

1 Greaco-Phrygian with Brygian as outer Thracian
2 Greaco-Aryan it is a wide theory and know her,
3 Greaco-Armenian proved at around 2004-2011 by my favourite Linguists, Green and Atkinson, (Green Atkinson and Underhill is the last attested Linguistic map)

So Connectivity of Mycenean with Armenian is also established not only by geneticks,
but from Linguistic also,

and the problem to finalize that theory is Thracian and Duridanov,
cause if the Thracian word Muca is also Mucenae and Armenian, then we have solve the problem, and Lower Thracian is also to that Group.
but if is not, then Thracian goes tottaly to Yamnaa's and Balt-Slav-Germanic linguistic group.

Mycenean is a trully deep IE culture, not only language,
with very low, almost non existing, Not only Asian steppe, but also Euro-Asian, (notice almost, so not to be missunderstood)
a Trully S Caucasian.

Excellent comment, Yetos, good food for thought. Thanks.
 
Really? Sour grapes, much? Did you know in 2015, 2014, that R1b V88 was from Europe? If you did, congratulations.

Would it really kill you guys to say congratulations to someone else, or maybe just, yeah, you might have been right? Classy, really classy.
Im grateful that Macimo puts time and effort into this website --having a forum for us, to have reasonable debates and encourage different lines of thinking and or ideas.
 
I always said there would be a moment when everybody "knew all along".................................................
No we did not all new along...
Well if thats what you want to believe, all along, thats fine with me, as long as you can come up with some answers. Im still waiting for a reply you left hanging with the time frame of those R1b branches.
 
I always said there would be a moment when everybody "knew all along". This is that moment apparently.
What Maciamo, like many others, were saying there , and for years, was establishing of the Maykop as the epicenter of r1b and Pie. So, for many, it became the alternative for steppe and it endure up till today.
Well, maykop is almost 2000 years after the events we NOW are defining as the origin of PIE and R1b dispersal and, if anything, this movents of Uruk and Maykop, in bronze age, are the oposite , IMO, of eneolithic movememt from georgia into north caucasus that now and me for long are saying is the Urhmait of PIe and modern clades of r1b.
URUK and maykop, as actually Ubaid, kicked the r1bs pie speakers out of south caucasus. They had a name. Shulaveri Shomu.
Few remaimed.
No we did not all new along...

I think you're ignoring the chronology when you say that the urheimat of PIE (PIE, that is, the last common ancestor of all known IE language families) is exactly in Shulaveri Shomu people in the South Caucasus BEFORE as early as 5,500 BC. In terms of linguistic evolution that is so improbable that it is almost impossible. It is one thing to state that the ancestors of the R1b-M269 Indo-European males and probably the ancestral mother language of the PIE "proper" came from that culture when it was still spoken in the 6th milennium BC Neolithic West Asia... but that was most certainly NOT the PIE we all talk about here, that is the ancestor state of the language.

Glottochronological and in fact most other measures to estimate the time of divergence of the IE languages (especially the common vocabulary found in ALL the Indo-European branches, unless somehow all IE speakers were so connected to each other in such a small area that they shared all loanwords and new words that were created along the milennia - hmmm, not likely at all)... everything points to an origin of the Common PIE, just prior to its first divergence, in the Bronze Age and, in the case of the Anatolian branch, at the earliest in the Late Neolithic/Early Copper Age (~4,000 BC). That's more than 1,000 or even 1,500 years after that R1B-Z2103 in Iran and the arguably pre-IE Shulaveri Shomu in South Caucasus.

There was certainly A LOT of linguistic, genetic, cultural change in that gap. The culture that spread IE languages was most certainly NOT Shulaver Shomu even if it had derived from it. Also, there may well have been "other" para-PIE languages in the Neolithic, but THE PIE we all talk about is a language of the Copper Age/Bronze Age, not a language spoken more than 7,500 years ago and which would certainly have diverged even much more intensely than it did if it was the LAST common ancestor of all IE branches.

Think of this as a continuous, unbroken chain (like this one: PIE > Northwest IE > Proto-Germanic > Old English > English), but still we have to establish some common ground, some arbitrary line which in this case is "the last time and place where there was one undifferentiated PIE language", and that was NOT in Shulaveri Shomu even before than 5,000 BC. But, yes, you're probably right that the roots of PIE ultimately come from there or from a neighboring South Caucasian culture.
 
I always said there would be a moment when everybody "knew all along". This is that moment apparently.
What Maciamo, like many others, were saying there , and for years, was establishing of the Maykop as the epicenter of r1b and Pie. So, for many, it became the alternative for steppe and it endure up till today.
Well, maykop is almost 2000 years after the events we NOW are defining as the origin of PIE and R1b dispersal and, if anything, this movents of Uruk and Maykop, in bronze age, are the oposite , IMO, of eneolithic movememt from georgia into north caucasus that now and me for long are saying is the Urhmait of PIe and modern clades of r1b.
URUK and maykop, as actually Ubaid, kicked the r1bs pie speakers out of south caucasus. They had a name. Shulaveri Shomu.
Few remaimed.
No we did not all new along...

Stop talking out of ignorance and sour grapes. (God, it's like a flu epidemic.) It's not our fault if you didn't have the foresight to read threads and posts on this site over the years. Maciamo has been saying that R1b was south of the Caucasus and went into the steppe from there since 2009. Did you even know about population genetics in 2009?

The thread where Alan and I argued that much of the culture of the steppe Indo-Europeans came from south of the Caucasus or Neolithic Old Europe dates to 2015. Did you notice that? Or did you miss it? We were discussing Ivanov and Grigoriev even before that, as was Dienekes, back in 2013 and 2014. I got into arguments about it, saying it was a possibility, back on dna-forums.

See:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...nt-in-the-Caucasus?highlight=Ivanov+Grigoriev
I started the above thread in 2014. (You might want to take a look at my comment number 3 for example.) Where were you posting in 2014?

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html
Dienekes was arguing it in 2013, and because of that subject to what can only be called online bullying. It was disgusting, even if he probably didn't give a damn.

As I said, not my fault, or that of Maciamo, if you only read sites where everybody either hued to the "party" line, or they had to get out.

Now, I wouldn't have said it if you didn't write this rude and delusional post, but the only late comer, wanna be here, buddy, is you.
 
Archaeologically and economically, the direction seems to have been exactly the opposite: irrigation agriculture and some other aspects of the farming economy and material culture in the unquestionably Sumerian Uruk period seem to have clear similarities with the former Samarra culture from Northern Mesopotamian. Besides, before ~5,500 BC there was virtually no intensive agriculture in Southern Mesopotamia (Sumer), so AFAIK to most archaeologists the direction of the Mesopotamian spread of farming and migrations (that eventually, when writing appears, we see that were related to Sumerians) seems to have been from north to south, from North Iraq to South Iraq. In my opinion, exactly the same process formed the Proto-Semitic peoples, with J1/J2 people from the north (Caucasus/Armenian Highlands/West Iran) merging with the natives of the Levant and, unlike the former [proto-]Sumerians, adopting the local language while also changing their genetic and cultural makeup.

1. Group A
I think that the main location of the people of the Gobeklitepe, Ubaid, Uruk and Sumer cultures is located in Upper Mesopotamia(South-Eastern Turkey, North Syria and North Iraq). Their haplogroups were G, H, J, L, T.

2. Group B
The main location of the people of the Khvalynsk culture(and earlier hunter gatherers) was the Steppe and Northern Regions(North of the Black Sea). Their haplogroup was R. The haplogroup of hunter gatherer people of Paleolithic Scandinavia and Europe was I. In time these two hunter gatherers mixed.

3. Group C
The main location of the people of the Natufian culture was the Southern Levant Region. Their haplogroup was E.

4. Mixing and Migrations
-During the "Pre-Pottery Neolithic period", Group A mixed with Group C. During the 6th millennium BCE they migrated to Central and Western Europe.

-During the "Chalcolithic/Eneolithic period"(5th millennium BCE) "Group A" migrated into the South and North Caucasus and created(found) the Kurgan type of cultures(Leyla-Tepe, Maykop and Early-Kura-Araxes/Areni). In the same period(and the following periods), "Group A" also migrated to South-Eastern Europe(Bulgaria) and South Central Asia(Turkmenistan, Eastern Iran). In South-Eastern Europe they found the Varna culture(4600-4200 BCE), oldest metallurgy(gold). Group A moved this metallurgy system in later periods to the Leyla-Tepe and Maykop.

-Maybe before the 5th millennium BCE a small part of Group B(R2 and maybe some R1b) already migrated to some parts of the Iran/Caucasus regions(no Kurgans associated with them).

-During the 3th millennium BCE(and the end of the 4th millennium BCE) Group B migrated partly into South and North Caucasus, mixed with Group A, and went back to the Steppe to form the Yamna culture. Now, the people of the Late-Kura-Araxes period are a mix of Group A, B and C.
 
1. Group A
I think that the main location of the people of the Gobeklitepe, Ubaid, Uruk and Sumer cultures is located in Upper Mesopotamia(South-Eastern Turkey, North Syria and North Iraq). Their haplogroups were G, H, J, L, T.

2. Group B
The main location of the people of the Khvalynsk culture(and earlier hunter gatherers) was the Steppe and Northern Regions(North of the Black Sea). Their haplogroup was R. The haplogroup of hunter gatherer people of Paleolithic Scandinavia and Europe was I. In time these two hunter gatherers mixed.

3. Group C
The main location of the people of the Natufian culture was the Southern Levant Region. Their haplogroup was E.

4. Mixing and Migrations
-During the "Pre-Pottery Neolithic period", Group A mixed with Group C. During the 6th millennium BCE they migrated to Central and Western Europe.

-During the "Chalcolithic/Eneolithic period"(5th millennium BCE) "Group A" migrated into the South and North Caucasus and created(found) the Kurgan type of cultures(Leyla-Tepe, Maykop and Early-Kura-Araxes/Areni). In the same period(and the following periods), "Group A" also migrated to South-Eastern Europe(Bulgaria) and South Central Asia(Turkmenistan, Eastern Iran). In South-Eastern Europe they found the Varna culture(4600-4200 BCE), oldest metallurgy(gold). Group A moved this metallurgy system in later periods to the Leyla-Tepe and Maykop.

-Maybe before the 5th millennium BCE a small part of Group B(R2 and maybe some R1b) already migrated to some parts of the Iran/Caucasus regions(no Kurgans associated with them).

-During the 3th millennium BCE(and the end of the 4th millennium BCE) Group B migrated partly into South and North Caucasus, mixed with Group A, and went back to the Steppe to form the Yamna culture. Now, the people of the Late-Kura-Araxes period are a mix of Group A, B and C.

Your hypothesis is well construed and mostly plausible (I'd disagre on Central European Neolithic being closely related to E1b1b-carrying Natufians, though), but I still somehow think that the cultural and linguistic diversity of the pre-Chalcolithic/Bronze Age world, including the Middle East, was too big to be successfully reduced into just 4 or 5 (originally) homogeneous groups, even if I concede that in the long-term (in the distant past, that is) they may well have derived from a much smaller group of distinct peoples that prevailed over the others. But I'd be really surprised if all those cultures (Leyla-Tepe, Maykop, Kura-Araxes, Sumer etc.) spoke the same language family and came from exactly the same one ancestor culture and mother language. Among other reasons, the languages attested in early writing in the Bronze Age - Hurrian, Hattic, Urartian, Sumerian, etc. -, some of which certainly descended from those important cultures, were definitely very different and not even demonstrably part of the just 1 or 2 language families, but several and most possibly unrelated (at least in a sensible timeframe of 3,000-6,000 years before). I tend to think that that scenario severely underestimates the average linguistic and cultural scenario of a Neolithic region (compare, for example, with the Neolithic-style Mesoamerica or Andes found by the Spaniards when they arrived in the Americas, with its huge linguistic diversity and several language families, most of which only very remotely related to each other).
 
North Iran not West Iran. The Levant term is outdated please rename it Greco Anatolia respectfully.

Also, the Alpine races came from the Near East to the Mediterranean coastline and even outer Germania this was due to Neolithic migration also. Just goes to show how hybrid people are. Also don't get confused with haplogroups J2 is Fertile Cresent Anatolia J1 is usually Semite.

Greco-Anatolia? WHAT? Do you even know what the Levant region is? Here, Levant means today roughly ISRAEL+PALESTINE+JORDAN+SYRIA. There is nothing particularly Greek nor particularly Anatolian about those countries and that entire region, not now, not in ancient times. If the term Levant is totally fine for all the geneticists that have been publishing all these studies we talk about here, then it's fine for me, too. Also, not all J1 is Semitic, mostly just J1-P58. You sound a bit confused, to be honest.
 
I agree with this neither were native Anatolian.Hittites. When Europeans evolved as a race they went through the Fertile Cresent and the Steppes they did not skip through Central Asia Caucasus or Western Anatolia that i'd love to see unless they had wings! They did skip over Arabia though. Anyway Arabics from the Gulf have quite a significant SSA admixture.

ncomms15694-f4.jpg


Lenab, you're confused and don't know much, please go through some of the papers mentioned in this thread https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

If Natufians don't really have an SSA or East African HG component as we thought before (f4 stats do not detect them) in their ancestry, then most Near Easterners don't have much, especially Gulf Arabs.
 
Greco-Anatolia? WHAT? Do you even know what the Levant region is? Here, Levant means today roughly ISRAEL+PALESTINE+JORDAN+SYRIA. There is nothing particularly Greek nor particularly Anatolian about those countries and that entire region, not now, not in ancient times. If the term Levant is totally fine for all the geneticists that have been publishing all these studies we talk about here, then it's fine for me, too. Also, not all J1 is Semitic, mostly just J1-P58. You sound a bit confused, to be honest.


There is nothing particular Greek or Anatolian about the Levant...Yes there is and in ancient times during the Hellenic period. My Mum is from the Levant according to her haplogroup which is H a actual ancient Greek haplogroup and according to both her autosomal genetics and mine we both have similarities to Greek people and Anatolian people like Armenians in our K36 Eurogenes cal on GED match Therefore West Asians whether they are from the Levant or not are ''Greco Anatolian'' Western Turks and Armenians too that's the very definition of a West Asian a Near Eastern Southern European mix. The Levant is a technicality I didn't say don't use it I said it's technical.

Actually the Philistines and Armenians were the original people of the Levant not Lebanese Syrian Palestinian Jordanians Arabics and the Israelis apart from the Philistines and Canaanites were Jews. So personally I am not buying it, that all the people today in the Levant are the same as ancient times. Even Ramses III tried to push out the Sea people from North Africa.

People in the Levant today are Arab Middle Easterners in Pre Historic times they were Near Easterners Greco Anatolians.
https://i.imgur.com/DYTxx.jpg

That's the map. The Levant is mapped out as Greco Anatolia although I disagree with them mapping out South Italy and Cyprus in the same spectrum. South Italians are Greco Italics the ones with Greek genetics and Cypriots are just Hellenic.
 
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ncomms15694-f4.jpg


Lenab, you're confused and don't know much, please go through some of the papers mentioned in this thread https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

If Natufians don't really have an SSA or East African HG component as we thought before (f4 stats do not detect them) in their ancestry, then most Near Easterners don't have much, especially Gulf Arabs.
No Near Eastern people do have that it's just not half as much. Gulf Arabs are not Near Easterners Near Eastern people are people of the Levant in pre historic times and Caucasus like Georgians and Armenians etc.
 

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