Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[A. Papadimitriou]

Also, anyone who thought that the steppe percentages might be confounded by "pseudo steppe" created by a reservoir of ANE plus Iran Neo and some ANF was a kook worthy of name calling.

I don't know who said that here but it can be almost correct. Because the authors of the study seem to think that 'Steppe EMBA'-like groups moved south in the 2nd mil. BCE (there are not much ancient data to support that yet). That can be correct, theoretically, but Steppe EMBA includes Iran N & ANF admixture.

SPGT can be modeled as Iran N + ANF + WSiberianHG +AASI

 

[Maciamo]

back from holidays I can check things, simply what you say here is just the contrary that I read here from 2014

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-light-and-dark-pigmentation?highlight=araxes

On a side note, it is highly frustrating that this team of geneticists tested 63 samples from the Yamna and Catacomb and related cultures and did not test any Y-DNA at all ! This could prove once and for all that R1b people spread from the Pontic Steppe and not with Neolithic Near Eastern farmers as so many academic papers have claimed.

I will try to find the discussion had with this issue

Absolutely not! The passage you quoted from me refers to the Balaresque et al. (2010) paper which claims that R1b-M269 and Indo-Europeans languages spread with Neolithic farmers from Anatolia to the Balkans with cultures such as Starcevo and LBK. That paper has been completely discredited by the finding of R1b-M269 (well mostly Z2103) in Yamna and of R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 in northern Bell Beaker sites and subsequent Bronze Age cultures, but no R1b-M269 in any Neolithic European culture. Read again. I know exactly what I wrote.

 

[Maciamo]

So does someone have an opinion on Darra.I.Kur_d from northern Afghanistan? The coverage is bad, but I've compared it with the samples in Olalde (2017) and it looks like if the assignment is correct this would be the oldest occurence of typically Western European R1b (L151). That can't be right, no?

The mtdna is H2a, which looks like it is associated with the Bronze Age in Europe.

I don't see any problem with this. Darra i kur is MBA (c. 2650 BCE), about the same period as the German Bell Beaker R1b-P312. The Early Yamna elite burials turned out to be R1b-Z2103, but I have always maintained that elite burials are only representative of the small ruling class (royal lineage), not the whole population. I expect that R1v-L51 and R1b-L151 should be found among Yamna people and all the Yamna offshoots, including in Central Asia.

 

[Maciamo]

But you were labeling haplogroups 'European' and 'Middle Eastern' based on their modern frequencies and you were associating R1b or R1 in general with blondness. Do you remember that?

I associated R1b with red hair and R1a with blondness. I am getting tired of people misquoting me.

As for the labelling, what are you referring to? Where and in what context? Which clades was I talking about?

 

[Lenab]

Absolutely not! The passage you quoted from me refers to the Balaresque et al. (2010) paper which claims that R1b-M269 and Indo-Europeans languages spread with Neolithic farmers from Anatolia to the Balkans with cultures such as Starcevo and LBK. That paper has been completely discredited by the finding of R1b-M269 (well mostly Z2103) in Yamna and of R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 in northern Bell Beaker sites and subsequent Bronze Age cultures, but no R1b-M269 in any Neolithic European culture. Read again. I know exactly what I wrote.

Absolutely and you get rep for that also.

 

[I1a3_Young]

Maciamo (and others),

Thank you for putting in so much work on this site even though you might get nitpicked.

This study is very interesting since the early haplo mistakes were cleared up. If the PIE movement began in the area of this sample, I would think they originally had more J2 and picked up more R1b as they moved north. It makes sense that there would have been a R1b gradient in this area if R1b were found to the north at the time.

If there was no R1b to the north, then wouldn't we expect a very high R1b rate (and lack the sample size to verify)?

Maciamo was right when he said certain lines of J2 moved with the IE. How many J samples have been found in the Steppe though? Some G lines probably moved with them too, but hobbyists probably automatically lump all G2a into early farmer movement when some could have come with IE.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I associated R1b with red hair and R1a with blondness. I am getting tired of people misquoting me.

As for the labelling, what are you referring to? Where and in what context? Which clades was I talking about?

Those pages are edited often. Either way, that isn't correct either because there are ancient blonde individuals with L1a, for example.

You were creating maps with labels like 'Near Eastern Y-DNA', or something. (You had grouped together E1b1b+G2a+J1+J2+T, as far as I remember.)

Concerning, R1b the latest map you have made indicated that you have thought R1b-Z2103 originated North of Caucasus.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo. Lets settle this once and for all. Point me to where you say that!

(it felt pretty lonely this last 3 years talking about Shulaveri, 4900 bc, Mesokho, kuban river, samara river etc.)

I don't really feel like going through each of my 8000+ posts to satisfy your curiosity, but here are a few examples.

From 2012

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-the-Caucasus?p=399869&viewfull=1#post399869

This is exactly why I have always placed the migration of R1b from Anatolia to the North Caucasus-Pontic Steppe between 7000 and 5000 BCE. This is what is explained in my R1b history and what has been shown on the R1b migration map I created in 2008. The Kurgan culture actually starts from 7000 BCE. I don't think it is a coincidence. This corresponds to the arrival of R1b in the steppes, with Neolithic technologies and domesticated animals from the Middle East.

From 2013

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...E-R1b-people-originated-in-the-Maykop-culture

The paper brings additional evidence regarding the origins of the Early Bronze Age Maykop culture in Mesopotamia, confirming my theory that R1b people from the Middle East migrated across the Caucasus and established the Maykop culture, before expanding throughout the Pontic-Caspian Steppes and mixing with the indigenous R1a steppe people.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ruk-expansion-and-Cucuteni-Trypillian-culture

It has been suggested that the Chalcolithic Uruk expansion was responsible for the establishment of the advanced Maykop culture in the Northwest Caucasus around 3700 BCE. This hypothesis does not rely only on timing, but also clear cultural affinities and the appearance of woolly sheep in both regions at the same time. Kohl explains that the herding of sheep for wool liberated a lot of fertile land that had until then been used to grow flax for clothing, and that this allowed big surpluses in cereal cultivation, which caused a population boom. That is what may have caused the Uruk expansion.

Unfortunately we do not know what haplogroup those Uruk settlers carried, although I would list G2a, J2, T and R1b among the top candidates. One possibility is that the Uruk contingent that founded Maykop (if indeed it was them) belonged primarily to R1b (at least 80%, through a founder effect) and that they were accompanied by G2a3b1, J2b and T lineages.

From 2016

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...valynsk-period?p=494848&viewfull=1#post494848

This confirms that R1b may have entered the Steppe during the Khvalynsk period, perhaps as an offshoot from the contemporary Leyla Tepe culture in Azerbaijan. It is very clear from these three samples that only the R1b guy is an outsider with Caucasian admixture. This R1b guy also lacks the dark blue WHG admixture, which hints that in the Epipaleolithic R1a and R1b were originally EHG, but while R1a people intermingled with WHG tribes (linked to I2a, and surely that I2a2a-L701 found in Yamna), some R1b tribes had already moved south of the Caucasus, where they mixed with the teal people - indubitably linked to Y-haplogroup J, and probably J2b in this was, as J2b is found at relatively high frequency in the Volga-Ural region.

I did not mention the Shulaveri-Shomu culture back until recently because I didn't know it well. I am still not sure of which culture is the source of the Steppe R1b-L23 and Maykop. It could be Shulaveri-Shomu or Leyla Tepe (although a bit too young) or even Uruk. It might also be from an unnamed culture or another that I don't know about. It's also entirely possible that there were two migrations of R1b across the Caucasus to the Steppe. The first might be from Shulaveri-Shomu to the Caspian Steppe (Khvalynsk) around 5500-5000 BCE, but there might have been a second one later from Uruk to Maykop via Leyla Tepe. This is highly hypothetical, but if that was the case, we could imagine R1b-Z2103 spreading to the eastern Caspian Steppe (Khvalynsk then eastern Yamna), and R1b-L51 coming to Maykop then spread west along the Black Sea shore then the Danube.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Stop talking out of ignorance and sour grapes. (God, it's like a flu epidemic.) It's not our fault if you didn't have the foresight to read threads and posts on this site over the years. Maciamo has been saying that R1b was south of the Caucasus and went into the steppe from there since 2009. Did you even know about population genetics in 2009?

The thread where Alan and I argued that much of the culture of the steppe Indo-Europeans came from south of the Caucasus or Neolithic Old Europe dates to 2015. Did you notice that? Or did you miss it? We were discussing Ivanov and Grigoriev even before that, as was Dienekes, back in 2013 and 2014. I got into arguments about it, saying it was a possibility, back on dna-forums.

See:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...nt-in-the-Caucasus?highlight=Ivanov+Grigoriev
I started the above thread in 2014. (You might want to take a look at my comment number 3 for example.) Where were you posting in 2014?

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html
Dienekes was arguing it in 2013, and because of that subject to what can only be called online bullying. It was disgusting, even if he probably didn't give a damn.

As I said, not my fault, or that of Maciamo, if you only read sites where everybody either hued to the "party" line, or they had to get out.

Now, I wouldn't have said it if you didn't write this rude and delusional post, but the only late comer, wanna be here, buddy, is you.

Angela. Not really.
I read it all. And today as in 2015 I am saying that all of you that talked about it as south OF THE caucasus didnt really talked about SOUTH CAUCASUS. Let alone between lesser and greater caucasus as I do with Shulaveri.

And being wrong is : whatever the kool aid anyone decides to take today its fine, but all that was pushed by either Maciamo or Deniekes or I guess you at times , was a sort of near eastern region spread into south of zagros, timewise in a 4th milenia flow of people with references to Kura Araxes and with Maykop as the target and ultimate reference of Pie/r1b was wrong...And I am telling you I will be surprised if Maykop isnt in fact the culture with the least of the R1b or PIe for starters. Especially if linked to leilatepe.

All that i had read from those 2014 and 2015 insights was a brewing of a, sort of Uruk movements, with the faint hope even Sumer .or the makes of it, would be R1B. when the truth is the events that matter for the issue at hand predates it all. With more of ubaid period "killing off" South caucasus R1b/Pie then anything else and hapenning at end of 6th milenia. And Yes, Samara- hassuna is not south caucasus Is north Mesopotamia.

..or to be fair even commenters as Kurti pushing to south Caspian and others pushing for other further south places didn't really see it.

So, no. not really. Truth is I was precisely reading you all and thinking how wrong you were that drove me to go to specifics and stating specifics. I even had to ignore all the TMRC dates being throw at my face because it did not fit Shulaveri - L23 4200 bc? Now we have a 5900-5500 bc Z2103? (which i think carbon dating will show 5200 bc).
Show me where anyone else was talking about shulaveri before me? Show me where anyone was targeting 6th milenia? Do you think it was a coincidence Johannes Krauser end of 2016 presentation in Moskow stating 4900bc ( and not 5000bc) after me months on end having a mantra of "4900bc the year the shulaveri got kicked out and went to north caucasus"? Or the way i said it, the year Mentesh tepe fell (burned down).

And let me do another prediction: Reich is saying "Armenia or north western Iran", because he extracted further dna from the Shulaveri individuals, Maygarian et all samples. that had already yield mtdna H15a1a, H2a and I1.

And yes, I think many of you will need to be challenged with this jumping in the bandawgon of "knew all along". And that should be considered fair and even beneficial (and definitly not disrespectful to Maciamo whom I admire) . Because If shulaveri aren't IT, i will not jump into any.

And lets see what exactly you will manage to find rude in this comment of mine, similar to the previous one. -- Especially because calling people ignorant and ill formed, and making ad hominem, is not rude at all.
Yes, classy indeed.

 

[Angela]

Another interesting and thoughtful piece on the genomics of Indians.

See:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.c...velopments-regarding-the-genomics-of-indians/

Razib Khan's take on what "Aryan" means.

http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/04...-india/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I have to say that personally I can't wait until no one gives a damn.

On another topic, does anyone know if groups like the Rajputs and Jats are used in these analyses looking for "steppe" ancestry. I always thought they'd have more than Brahmins.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

The term Aryan (Arian) was associated with the Medes.It is doubtful if the people Greeks called 'Scythians' were related to Ossetians. I think not. In post Classical sources it is certain that it was used for people who were speaking languages that belonged to more than 3 language families (up to 6).Ossetians use terms like Ir, Irættæ, Digoræ, DigorænttæTheoretically the terms Alan Aryan and Ir can be related, but I don't know if it can be proven.

 

[Alan]

or to be fair even commenters as Kurti pushing to south Caspian and others pushing for other further south places didn't really see it.

How was I wrong? I always pushed the idea of North/Northwest (just South of the Caspian) Iran to Southeast Caucasus (West of the Caspian) and than more towards North.

And as we see from this Hajji Firoz sample, he is 5500 BCE and if anything he is more of an ancestor to Leyla Tepe. I always point out Leyla Tepe as the culture where the majority of the PIE package was formed (with Kurgans etc). But I always pointed out that this Leyla Tepe culture also has it's origin further South(east) and many studies actually pointed that out. A Study from few years ago even pointed out that the connection of Maykop to the Iranian Plateau seems stronger than to Mesopotamia.

 

[markozd]

Maciamo was right when he said certain lines of J2 moved with the IE. How many J samples have been found in the Steppe though? Some G lines probably moved with them too, but hobbyists probably automatically lump all G2a into early farmer movement when some could have come with IE.

I think in this context it's good to remember that we still have no ancient samples from the earliest herding cultures in the northern Black Sea region. I'm sure by now mostly everyone is aware of Maykop. An equally interesting culture with more distinct southern influences would be Kemi Oba, with an epicentre in the Crimean peninsula. It is another Kurgan-building herding culture that, like Maykop, antedates Yamnaya by a few hundred years. The Kemi Oba people were the first to erect the characteristic Kurgan stelae that would become a constituent of later 'steppe cultures' across Eurasia.

We have already seen that Ukraine had quite some genetic sub-structure already in the Chalcolithic, so I consider this region a strong candidate for the origin of some of the other haplogroups that seem to be associated with expansions from the steppe. I think Maciamo pointed out that the distributions of J2b-L283 and E-V13 are consistent with expansions from the steppe. R1b-L51 is also missing from the steppe samples we have thus far.

 

[Alan]

Another interesting and thoughtful piece on the genomics of Indians.

See:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.c...velopments-regarding-the-genomics-of-indians/

Razib Khan's take on what "Aryan" means.

http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/04...-india/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I have to say that personally I can't wait until no one gives a damn.

On another topic, does anyone know if groups like the Rajputs and Jats are used in these analyses looking for "steppe" ancestry. I always thought they'd have more than Brahmins.

He is wrong about the Ossetian part though. Ossets call themselves Alan which is basically derived from Aryan and They call themselves Iron which is a loudshifted version of Iran and derives from Aryan too.

 

[Lenab]

He is wrong about the Ossetian part though. Ossets call themselves Alan which is basically derived from Aryan and They call themselves Iron which is a loudshifted version of Iran and derives from Aryan too.

That is relative Iran has many different ethnic groups. Kurds vary too Kurds and Yazidis in Turkey are different to Kurds in Persia.

Ossetians and Alans are interchangeable and I think they are something to do with Georgians.

 

[Ygorcs]

See as I wrote above many of these typical "Indo_Aryan" phoenitc developements can be considered as Proto Indo_Iranian. The H loud or today X is actually In Proto Indo_Iranian also S. See as example the H loud in middle iranic for sister that evolved from the S sound.

Proto Indo_Iranic was S too. That is my point.
And about the Eka word. If I am correct this should mean one. You know what? Persian Yak and Kurdish Yek/ek. Indo Aryan substrata in West Iranic or simply a coincidence in developement? Aiva is as far as I know connected to Avesta? (East Iranic) and shouldn't be of allot of importance for the developement in West Iranic tongues.

Things are not as crystal clear as we might thing. Many of these "typical" Indo Aryan loudshifts can be easilly assigned to a language that branched of from proto Indo_Iranian. Neither Iranic nor Indo_Aryan yet. And since Indo_Aryan is more archaic naturally more archaic Indo_Iranian words will appear closer to it. That was my argument above and with the S to H shift you gave me a good example.

That makes sense. You convinced me, Alan!

 

[Ygorcs]

There is nothing particular Greek or Anatolian about the Levant...Yes there is and in ancient times during the Hellenic period. My Mum is from the Levant according to her haplogroup which is H a actual ancient Greek haplogroup and according to both her autosomal genetics and mine we both have similarities to Greek people and Anatolian people like Armenians in our K36 Eurogenes cal on GED match Therefore West Asians whether they are from the Levant or not are ''Greco Anatolian'' Western Turks and Armenians too that's the very definition of a West Asian a Near Eastern Southern European mix. The Levant is a technicality I didn't say don't use it I said it's technical.

Actually the Philistines and Armenians were the original people of the Levant not Lebanese Syrian Palestinian Jordanians Arabics and the Israelis apart from the Philistines and Canaanites were Jews. So personally I am not buying it, that all the people today in the Levant are the same as ancient times. Even Ramses III tried to push out the Sea people from North Africa.

People in the Levant today are Arab Middle Easterners in Pre Historic times they were Near Easterners Greco Anatolians.
https://i.imgur.com/DYTxx.jpg

That's the map. The Levant is mapped out as Greco Anatolia although I disagree with them mapping out South Italy and Cyprus in the same spectrum. South Italians are Greco Italics the ones with Greek genetics and Cypriots are just Hellenic.

The ONLY problem with your theory is that virtually ALL ancient DNA from Mesolithic to Iron Age times retrieved from the Levant region DO NOT agree with your hypothesis. Also, you're probably being too "Hellenocentric", in fact it is the Greeks that have a lot of Anatolian-like and a bit of Levantine-like ancestry, the Neolithic spread of farming and mass migrations was from there (Near East) to Southern Europe, not the opposite.

Besides, there is NO way Greeks are the most similar population in comparison with ANY ancient Levantine sample. The Levant may have been Hellenized, may have received some Greek colonists, but it NEVER experienced widespread depopulation during Hellenistic times and was NEVER Greek-majority, not even in language (which is much more flexible and easily shifted than genetics), not even in the height of the Greek-speaking empires of Alexander and the Seleucids.

Instead, we have inscriptions in Semitic languages THOUSANDS OF YEARS (as early as 2,800 BC) before any Greek inscription appears in the historic record, and of course we have huge documentation from Sumerian and Egyptian sources attesting that that region was inhabited by Semitic peoples at least from the Bronze Age on. You're deluding yourself. You won't find any proof that people of the Levant were mostly Greek, nor even Anatolian, not in the Neolithic, not in the Bronze Age, not in the Iron Age, not now.

There is of course some degree of genetic similarity because, to be frank, it is not that those peoples are Greek, but it is that Greeks are historically at least in relevant proportions just a group of the Eastern Mediterranean populations like Anatolians and Levantines. But still there are clear distinctions between those peoples, even though they share a lot of common ancestral admixtures. And I'm pretty sure that not all Levantines are like your mum or yourself. That casuistic example alone is not how you analyze the genetic makeup of an entire and very diverse region.

 

[Silesian]

How was I wrong? I always pushed the idea of North/Northwest (just South of the Caspian) to Southeast Caucasus (West of the Caspian) and than more towards North.

And as we see from this Hajji Firoz sample, he is 5500 BCE and if anything he is more of an ancestor to Leyla Tepe. I always point out Leyla Tepe as the culture where the majority of the PIE package was formed (with Kurgans etc). But I always pointed out that this Leyla Tepe culture also has it's origin further South(east) and many studies actually pointed that out. A Study from few years ago even pointed out that the connection of Maykop to the Iranian Plateau seems stronger than to Mesopotamia.

How exactly do you know Iranian Hajji Firoz R1b-Z2103 sample(is not just a huge nothing burger?) was not a dead end branch, with no descendants? Alans/Iron/Aryan of Ossetia belong to R1b>Z2110>CTS9219>R5587>F5586. The branch of R1b>Z2110 is not found at all around the Southern Caucasus. Most Kurds for example derive from R1b> L584+

Alan - R1a-L62>YP5664 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: 461580
Alan - R1a-L62>M417 - Dêrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: ?
Alan - R1b-M343>M269>P311 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: E22089
Alxan - R1b-M343>M269>L23>L584>PH2731 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: 510248
Areyan - J1-M267>PF7263>ZS4440 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: 454546
Areyan - R1b-M343>M269>L23>L584>PH2731 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: N102077
Areyan - R1b-M343>M269>L23>L584>PH2731 - Dêrsim, Zaza FTDNA: 366762
Azîzî - G2a2b1a1a-P287>L31>L30>M406>L14 - Agirî, Kurmanjî

There is one Z-2106>>CTS8966 but that is connected to China. Z-2106*(the node above the Dêrsim, Kurmanji sample) is connected to Ireland R-Z2106 * Z2106formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
Xiran - R1b-M343>M269>L23>Z2106>CTS8966 - Dêrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E22086http://corduene.blogspot.ca/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2106/

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I have to say that personally I can't wait until no one gives a damn.

You know why I care? [I have chosen not to learn my haplogroup, btw because I consider it largely irrelevant.] But, apart from the Polish blogger and his highly patriarchal warrior pastoralists there were people who were saying things like:

"The survival of the indigenous language would have been the most likely scenario if the IE/R1b invaders were predominantly men. An army of adventurous Celtic men riding horses and equipped with bronze weapons could have butchered a substantial part of the Neolithic Iberian male population and taken their women. As good conquerors they would have taken many wives or concubines each (polygamy), having a great many children each, which helped the spread of R1b Y-DNA lineages (see How did R1b become dominant in Western Europe)"

That person never thought that his haplogroup wasn't originally Celtic or PIE-related and that the Basques could have retained more or less their original language.

Ossetians on the other hand, for example, had to have been 'iranized'.

And the truth is a Neolithic -or earlier- origin for Western European R1b (maybe apart from U-106) is still possible. Certainly they weren't Megalithic builders but how many Cardium Neolithic samples exist? Maybe it moved in Europe with E-V13 and related lineages or was here before the Neolithic. [If you sample Megalithic builders you will find Megalithic builders]

 

[Ygorcs]

Maciamo (and others),

Thank you for putting in so much work on this site even though you might get nitpicked.

This study is very interesting since the early haplo mistakes were cleared up. If the PIE movement began in the area of this sample, I would think they originally had more J2 and picked up more R1b as they moved north. It makes sense that there would have been a R1b gradient in this area if R1b were found to the north at the time.

If there was no R1b to the north, then wouldn't we expect a very high R1b rate (and lack the sample size to verify)?

Maciamo was right when he said certain lines of J2 moved with the IE. How many J samples have been found in the Steppe though? Some G lines probably moved with them too, but hobbyists probably automatically lump all G2a into early farmer movement when some could have come with IE.

Hajji Firuz is pretty north IMO, in West Azerbaijan, and near the Caucasus area, so I don't think it would be very surprising that R1b could've been very prevalent in that area. I mean, according to the maps on the diversity (not frequency) of R1b clades the cline was always from the South Black Sea Coast to the South Caucasus, as well as other parts of Anatolia (near the Taurus too, I believe), so it seems to me that R1b was once quite widespread in the northern part of West Asia and it possibly was overwhelmed in much of that area by the expansion of agriculturalists and pastoralists who were mostly G2a, J2 and J1 and thus became gradually a bit more restricted to Transcaucasia/Northwest Iran, where possibly "our" main object of interest R1b-M269 developed.