Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[halfalp]

Halfalp,
A couple comments on your comments.
Rambling is because of a couple facts:

1. Finally, after a long period of simplistic views, every new paper with new samples gives a twist to the story…. as expected. Many of us have warned that the narratives were being made with only a couple dots to make the lines, so a more complex one would arise.
2. The new narrative from Krauses, Haak and Reich“s” of this academia world , is in the direction of a more mature view of space and time. There was a lot of people. And that Lots of people with time (plenty of time) moved around. So, there will be a large amount of clines -- like the new Western Siberia cline that might be making some of the Yamnaya to be fake).
3. Examples: hypothetical. we need to have samples from kelteminar culture and if there wasn’t plenty of EHG “look a like” component and later mixing with more CHG /Iran N in the south shores of Caspian and have influences in the populations of places like Azerbaijan that might not be exactly the same as the population in Hajji Firuz or other more southern regions. Its these clines that might change the story… remember the Caspian and the black sea were smaller. There are plains that today are under water, circumferences by mountains on the other side. So, population might be slightly different ?
4. Are we sure, Shulaveri didn’t have, when migrating to Steppe in 4900 bc a “steppe” component because some of the people they mixed in Azrbaijan side already showed EHG or something similar? – Interesting times coming soon, now that the “gods” of Adna discovered south Caucasus.
5. Or exactly the same in places that are black spots or black holes, like Bulgaria, Romania and moldova where due to probably economic conditions in the last century, archeology never really went that far. So there is lots to learn from those. We know that places around had lots of R1b and we know nothing of what happened there in the 5^th , 4^th millennia. And it might turnout very important for the understanding of population in space and time. – Like, who is to say we wont find R1b L23 (Xall) there?

You have an high confidence for your thoughts, but you should not say that those are simplistic hypothesis when your hypothesis focus on hypothetic first world wine-makers.

 

[markozd]

Do you know whether any kurgan of ancient west asian culture like Shulaveri-Shomu culture or kura alex has the following yamna burial structure? It looks different from what I has thought til now.



As far as I know, this kind of burial layers is related with central asia ANE culture.) I think even maykop kurgab would not have this kind of structure, considering that archaeologist does not connect steppe culture to maykop culture.

looks like one mound kurgan has two layers of this, but more deeper pit:

http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...500-years-old-with-links-to-native-americans/

The papers that first described the Chalcolithic kurgans south of the Cacausus are Lyonnet et al. (2008) & Museyibli (2008a). I do think however that Yamnaya kurgans are modelled after those of Kemi Oba & Maikop. Seems unlikely they came up with the practice on their own at the same time and in the same place.

 

[markozd]

I know that people and myself included ( i dont like to play the conspiracist ) gonna hate what i just say but even if the paper doesn't contradicte the steppe hypothesis for some reason it create a controversy over amateur archeogeneticsts. First that one R1b-Z2103 sample ( exactly the major one of yamnaya while all of his parent are in europe ) hypothetically date in the perfect range of time ( 5900-5500 BC ) for an south entering into the steppe and secondly the lake of R1a in iron age indian sub-continent and the clear voluntee from Reich to push both agenda that R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93 where respectivally in north-east iran and north-west iran before their propagation seems weird and inclined. It seems pretty clear that R1a is the major haplogroup from Steppe_MLBA and this paper shows Steppe_MLBA in Central Asia. A lot of rambling for a pre-print, people that was staying quit with the Southeastern europe paper and Baltic one resurface because they see an opportunity or lack. Very controversial, i hope Harvard Med didn't put some political stance into this paper, seems unlikely but still.

Edit: If i understand completely Reich's point he thinks that R1b-Z2103 sample bring PIE in the steppe from a previous iran neolithic language. So Satem languages came in Iran and India by Iran Neolithic and Steppe pastoralists of the R1a groupe but with a centum language replace most of the paleolithic and neolithic male lineage at some time. So do he consider Balto-Slavic as an importation from R1a scythians keeping satem language in India and going north to the land of their ancestor ?

Reich seems a very compliant guy he first says that CWC and Yamnaya where very violent and dramatic for the previous male demographic and finish by saying " stay open " to immigration. I wonder if in the futur, some people gonna actually study the bronze age history and the modern one, and taking the conclusion that " if races exists well women doesn't have any race ".

We don't know what David Reich's point is. The paper was published after the release of his book I think.

You need to calm down and ignore what the amateur community thinks. Until recently, amateurs would have you believe that R1b came from some imagined Hyperborea in Siberia. Those who pointed out that based on basal diversity R1b must have had a long presence in the Balkans were ridiculed. Then after the South-Eastern Europe paper was published R1b suddenly became 'native European'. This will turn out to be equally misguided.

 

[Silesian]

This December, this article will be 4 years old.
1)ANE was used as the original model component; antiquity.
2)Yamnaya was ruled out through genetic evidence.
3)Maikop samples were collected proposals pending.

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https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/

 

[Olympus Mons]

You have an high confidence for your thoughts, but you should not say that those are simplistic hypothesis when your hypothesis focus on hypothetic first world wine-makers.

Have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[johen]

The papers that first described the Chalcolithic kurgans south of the Cacausus are Lyonnet et al. (2008) & Museyibli (2008a). I do think however that Yamnaya kurgans are modelled after those of Kemi Oba & Maikop. Seems unlikely they came up with the practice on their own at the same time and in the same place.

Looks like you don’t know their structure.
I think oldest mound kurgan was found in west siberia on 2015. So I believed that archaeologists said that mound kurgan origianted in pit-house.
https://www.newhistorian.com/stone-age-burial-mound-discovered-in-siberia/5082/

Marija Gimbutas also said that yamna culture is similar to modern vola-ural culture, which originated in south-east (corded-ware culture) and east.
Moreover, we can find this kind of two layer burial mounds in american Indian, but w/o pits.

 

[halfalp]

We don't know what David Reich's point is. The paper was published after the release of his book I think.

You need to calm down and ignore what the amateur community thinks. Until recently, amateurs would have you believe that R1b came from some imagined Hyperborea in Siberia. Those who pointed out that based on basal diversity R1b must have had a long presence in the Balkans were ridiculed. Then after the South-Eastern Europe paper was published R1b suddenly became 'native European'. This will turn out to be equally misguided.

I dont think any archeogenetic amateurs thinks R1b itself is native to europe, but the fact that ancestral R1b clades are found in prehistoric europe and that people still argue for an south caucasus origin of R1b, because of the CHG component in yamnaya and late neolithic / chalcolithic eastern europe goes over me. Yamnaya have actually a lot of different R1b subclades and also I2a2 and R1a subclades, we dont know who bring what to the pontic steppe whatever R1b-Z2103 is the major subclades of yamnaya. With the actual datas, you cant be overconfident that R1b and PIE are native from middle-east or you dont look at the big picture. When you say Hyperborea in Siberia, you are actually mean that you try to debunk some master-race bias no ? Political correctness are not an argument whatsoever. If we follow your argument on basal diversity, so Underhill was right when he said that R1a came from South Caucasus sometimes 5000 BC. But are we really arguing here that R1a and R1b where all in epipaleolithic and mesolithic europe but that they are both coming from Kurdistan ? And yes, all the prehistoric R1a or R1b found in europe might not be the direct ancestors of the modern people and might be dead ends, but this is actually only a personal opinion dont follow by any real datas. When you are overconfident about what you say, you dont just ally to facts but you also have an ideoligical stance that you admit it or not.

 

[halfalp]

Have no idea what you are talking about.

You've said yourself that you believe that Shulaveri Shomu and R1b where the first wine makers and you said you rely on that to know what regional south caucasus culture was related with Shulaveri Shomo, thats on this thread few pages ago.

 

[johen]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/
I believe R-Y3 could have originated somewhere between Caucasus and NE Iran and expanded mostly with Iranic speakers from 'West Asia'. Herodotus says that there were six Median tribes, one of them were the Magi.

If so, how can we explain that mayan culture is extremely similar to Hindu culture originated in Rigveda?

a former ambassador of the United States to Mexico, in his two-volume 1930's treatise The Ayar-Incas called the Mayan Civilization 'unquestionably Hindu'

Ithihaasa: The Mystery of His Story Is My Story of History

Plz see this picture
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/03/bf/e3/03bfe35a1b897afbdd3ae4d395a75bae.jpg

okunevo third eye culture:

A bindi (Hindi: बिंदी, from Sanskrit bindu, meaning "point, drop, dot or small particle") is a colored dot worn on the centre of the forehead, commonly by Hindu and Jain women. The word bindu dates back to the hymn of creation known as Nasadiya Sukta in the Rigveda.[1] Bindu is considered the point at which creation begins and may become unity. It is also described as "the sacred symbol of the cosmos in its unmanifested state".[2][3] A bindi is a bright dot of some colour applied in the centre of the forehead close to the eyebrows worn in South Asia (particularly amongst Hindus in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka)[2] and Southeast Asia among Bali and Javanese Hindus. A similar marking is also worn by babies and children in China and, like in South and Southeast Asia, represents the opening of the third eye.[4] Bindi in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism is associated with ajna chakra, and Bindu[5] is known as the third eye chakra.

In the northern fringes of the steppe belt, I stressed the extreme importance of the Okunev Culture which had on the one hand connections with the Far East and, on the other, definite links with the south of Central Asia. Meanwhile I discovered a group of petroglyphs in the Indus Valley, near Chilas, that is connected with the engravings of the Okunev Culture by the main motifs and stylistic peculiarities. In addition to one report on my findings (Jettmar 1982: 298-302), others are forthcoming. It is not improbable that during the third and early second millemmia B.C. there were relations over thousands of kilometers, perhaps due to migrations of cattle-keeping Early Nomads. Other connections leading in the same direction were observed by Stacul (1977:251-252) and the Allchins (1982:111-116).

 

[markozd]

Looks like you don’t know their structure.
I think oldest mound kurgan was found in west siberia on 2015. So I believed that archaeologists said that mound kurgan origianted in pit-house.
https://www.newhistorian.com/stone-age-burial-mound-discovered-in-siberia/5082/

Marija Gimbutas also said that yamna culture is similar to modern vola-ural culture, which originated in south-east (corded-ware culture) and east.
Moreover, we can find this kind of two layer burial mounds in american Indian, but w/o pits.

When talking about Bronze Age Kurgans what's usually meant is single-grave mounds, often associated with high-status males. Collective burial mounds seem to exist almost everywhere.

 

[johen]

When talking about Bronze Age Kurgans what's usually meant is single-grave mounds, often associated with high-status males. Collective burial mounds seem to exist almost everywhere.

That is what I always thought.
Problem is typical yamna kurgans do not apply both case, sorry.
It is correct of archaeologists not to connect steppe culture even to maykop.

 

[markozd]

I dont think any archeogenetic amateurs thinks R1b itself is native to europe, but the fact that ancestral R1b clades are found in prehistoric europe and that people still argue for an south caucasus origin of R1b, because of the CHG component in yamnaya and late neolithic / chalcolithic eastern europe goes over me. Yamnaya have actually a lot of different R1b subclades and also I2a2 and R1a subclades, we dont know who bring what to the pontic steppe whatever R1b-Z2103 is the major subclades of yamnaya. With the actual datas, you cant be overconfident that R1b and PIE are native from middle-east or you dont look at the big picture. When you say Hyperborea in Siberia, you are actually mean that you try to debunk some master-race bias no ? Political correctness are not an argument whatsoever. If we follow your argument on basal diversity, so Underhill was right when he said that R1a came from South Caucasus sometimes 5000 BC. But are we really arguing here that R1a and R1b where all in epipaleolithic and mesolithic europe but that they are both coming from Kurdistan ? And yes, all the prehistoric R1a or R1b found in europe might not be the direct ancestors of the modern people and might be dead ends, but this is actually only a personal opinion dont follow by any real datas. When you are overconfident about what you say, you dont just ally to facts but you also have an ideoligical stance that you admit it or not.

There are no ancestral haplotypes, just clades that branched off earlier. That's the point. We have many so many samples from Europe and it seems to be R1b-M269 wasteland. I had thought that M269 could have originated in the vicinity of present day Romania or Bulgaria, but the R1b there is too far removed - it makes no sense whatsoever.

I do not find the case for an origin of R1b-M269 on the Iranian plateau very strong either, to be honest. These places are rather overstudied compared to other regions in the Middle East. But to get an idea we'd need a decent amount of pre-neolithic samples.

 

[halfalp]

There are no ancestral haplotypes, just clades that branched off earlier. That's the point. We have many so many samples from Europe and it seems to be R1b-M269 wasteland. I had thought that M269 could have originated in the vicinity of present day Romania or Bulgaria, but the R1b there is too far removed - it makes no sense whatsoever.I do not find the case for an origin of R1b-M269 on the Iranian plateau very strong either, to be honest. These places are rather overstudied compared to other regions in the Middle East. But to get an idea we'd need a decent amount of pre-neolithic samples.

My first ever post on this forum concist of an immature theory that at a certain time when the black sea could be a lake, R1a would be situated north of this one and R1b in south. Funny things the only thing i was rely on is that a noticed that in modern R1b population a lot of physical Dinarid or Armenid features where especially in irland so i thought R1b was somehow linked with balkans and or anatolia / armenia. At this time, we didn't know that yamnaya was mostly R1b so i forget the idea, but the history of southeastern europe shows us that balkans where actually way more regional that the very centralized neolithic europe previously thoughts so. A few monthes ago some genetist renamed Villabruna 1 R1b-M269 instead of L754 what is the actual thoughts on that ? M269 ancestor P297 is a high prehistoric Baltic and maybe Steppe marker, so it would be weird that M269 originate in Armenia or Western Iran. But history of southeastern europe also shows us that a region that we previously thought being overwhelming G2a had R1b pockets in and there so your idea about a romanian or bulgarian R1b-M269 origin is not flawed, might be even north anatolia or georgia, even if a contradicte previous recent thoughts by saying that.

 

[Angela]

People should stop creating straw man arguments. I think it's certainly possible the group which Reich proposes might have brought not only culture and genes but the perhaps proto-Indo-European language to the steppe carried an R1b lineage. That absolutely does not mean that I think R1b necessarily originated south of the Caucasus, and even if it did, clearly there was not necessarily continuity there.

I don't know why it's so difficult to visualize certain yDna bearing groups wandering long distances, since we know R1b V88 did just that. The area around the Caucasus seems to have been an area with lots of south/north and north/south back and forth movement. I see no difficulty in proposing that an R1b clade might have moved south, become autosomally "southern", and then moved back onto the steppe.

 

[halfalp]

People should stop creating straw man arguments. I think it's certainly possible the group which Reich proposes might have brought not only culture and genes but the perhaps proto-Indo-European language to the steppe carried an R1b lineage. That absolutely does not mean that I think R1b necessarily originated south of the Caucasus, and even if it did, clearly there was not necessarily continuity there.

I don't know why it's so difficult to visualize certain yDna bearing groups wandering long distances, since we know R1b V88 did just that. The area around the Caucasus seems to have been an area with lots of south/north and north/south back and forth movement. I see no difficulty in proposing that an R1b clade might have moved south, become autosomally "southern", and then moved back onto the steppe.

Because when we make assumptions about europe history people argue that the reality might be more complicated, but when it's about something else, everything is so much fast accepted. M269 direct ancestor is in prehistoric europe and we dont have any mesolithic anatolia dna or even prehistoric caucasus dna to draw a continuum of haplogroups patern. I agree that prehistoric people, especially women have travel very far of their grand-parent homeland, but we cant be for sure. What i'm personnaly standing against is the idea that there was 2 pockets of R1b one in prehistoric europe and one in prehistoric south caucasus that evolved independently and so became two different population after the years. If we take ancient dna and modern dna, if we follow that trail it would mean same subgroups evolved at thousand of miles to each other. You would assume that there was R1b-L754, V-88 and P-297 at the same time in prehistoric europe and prehistoric south caucasus but that only the latter would be relevent for modern ancestry, wich is very very doubtful.

 

[markozd]

My first ever post on this forum concist of an immature theory that at a certain time when the black sea could be a lake, R1a would be situated north of this one and R1b in south. Funny things the only thing i was rely on is that a noticed that in modern R1b population a lot of physical Dinarid or Armenid features where especially in irland so i thought R1b was somehow linked with balkans and or anatolia / armenia. At this time, we didn't know that yamnaya was mostly R1b so i forget the idea, but the history of southeastern europe shows us that balkans where actually way more regional that the very centralized neolithic europe previously thoughts so. A few monthes ago some genetist renamed Villabruna 1 R1b-M269 instead of L754 what is the actual thoughts on that ? M269 ancestor P297 is a high prehistoric Baltic and maybe Steppe marker, so it would be weird that M269 originate in Armenia or Western Iran. But history of southeastern europe also shows us that a region that we previously thought being overwhelming G2a had R1b pockets in and there so your idea about a romanian or bulgarian R1b-M269 origin is not flawed, might be even north anatolia or georgia, even if a contradicte previous recent thoughts by saying that.

Yes, P297 in Latvia is interesting, but it's far too late and the first human settlements seem to be associated with the Kunda culture. To test a northern origin, one would have to look at samples from LUP Ukraine and Russia. Mezine culture is interesting in that regards. There are some lesser known LUP sites in Russia too, but human settlements after LGM seem to be scarce, generally speaking.

However, M269 is at least 13000 years old, and basal diversity is heavily concentrated in the Near East, the Caucasus and around Persian Gulf. R1b* is exclusive to Kurdish & Iranian groups from Iran & Kazakhstan. That makes a probability of an ultimate northern orign rather low, IMHO.

All of that has nothing to do with the PIE question though. We have seen several cases of Y-DNA replacement despite high likelihood for language continuity, so these things shouldn't be conflated.

 

[halfalp]

Yes, P297 in Latvia is interesting, but it's far too late and the first human settlements seem to be associated with the Kunda culture. To test a northern origin, one would have to look at samples from LUP Ukraine and Russia. Mezine culture is interesting in that regards. There are some lesser known LUP sites in Russia too, but human settlements after LGM seem to be scarce, generally speaking.

However, M269 is at least 13000 years old, and basal diversity is heavily concentrated in the Near East, the Caucasus and around Persian Gulf. R1b* is exclusive to Kurdish & Iranian groups from Iran & Kazakhstan. That makes a probability of an ultimate northern orign rather low, IMHO.

All of that should has nothing to do with the PIE question though. We have seen several cases of Y-DNA replacement despite high likelihood for language continuity, so these things shouldn't be conflated.

Yes, but Near East have very basal and diverse variety from a lot of different haplogroups, so like neolithic europe, we can also argue if the prehistoric R1b from europe came from near east they would bring other haplogroups with them, or we just have missed them in the sampling of prehistoric europe. I'm always unconfortable with the dating of subgroups, if M269 is 13'000 old, how much is P-297 ? with that long time range, it can virtually makes R1b being from everywhere in eurasia and lost previous component to others. Also i'm pretty sur there is basal R1b* in europe we could actually also see to a very ancient migration from a R1b* like population from somewhere into middle-east. One of the oldest R1a clade is found mostly in Arabia, does it make R1a an middle-eastern lineage ? i dont think so. If nothing is static for the holocene so nothing is static for all the history. Oldest R* so far is from Mal'ta as we know, but basal lineage are found in southeastern asia if i remember correctly. So we assume that those basal R1b* from middle-east never migrate between more than 15'000 years ? Personnally, i get tired of PIE hypothesis.

 

[markozd]

Yes, but Near East have very basal and diverse variety from a lot of different haplogroups, so like neolithic europe, we can also argue if the prehistoric R1b from europe came from near east they would bring other haplogroups with them, or we just have missed them in the sampling of prehistoric europe. I'm always unconfortable with the dating of subgroups, if M269 is 13'000 old, how much is P-297 ? with that long time range, it can virtually makes R1b being from everywhere in eurasia and lost previous component to others. Also i'm pretty sur there is basal R1b* in europe we could actually also see to a very ancient migration from a R1b* like population from somewhere into middle-east. One of the oldest R1a clade is found mostly in Arabia, does it make R1a an middle-eastern lineage ? i dont think so. If nothing is static for the holocene so nothing is static for all the history. Oldest R* so far is from Mal'ta as we know, but basal lineage are found in southeastern asia if i remember correctly. So we assume that those basal R1b* from middle-east never migrate between more than 15'000 years ? Personnally, i get tired of PIE hypothesis.

You are absolutely right that a single basal haplgroup is not a strong argument, but when the weight of the basal types points towards a specific region I think that can be considered at least indicative of a long presence in the region, since it reduces the possibility of an origin in another location where stochastic processes could have simply pruned all those basal types. If the date of the R1b-Z2103 in the paper can be confirmed, that would be quite itneresting since the basal types seem to be distributed in the range from the northern Persian Gulf to Dagestan. But I'd reserve judgement until then.

As for R1a, the very basal types seem to be in Iraq, the Gulf and North Africa. I don't find that very surprising if one presupposes an origin of R1 in Central Asia or vicinity. If you get above R, everything seems to point east. P1 in South & Central Asia and an almost unambiguous diversification of K2 in southeast Asia.

 

[halfalp]

You are absolutely right that a single basal haplgroup is not a strong argument, but when the weight of the basal types points towards a specific region I think that can be considered at least indicative of a long presence in the region, since it reduces the possibility of an origin in another location where stochastic processes could have simply pruned all those basal types. If the date of the R1b-Z2103 in the paper can be confirmed, that would be quite itneresting since the basal types seem to be distributed in the range from the northern Persian Gulf to Dagestan. But I'd reserve judgement until then.

As for R1a, the very basal types seem to be in Iraq, the Gulf and North Africa. I don't find that very surprising if one presupposes an origin of R1 in Central Asia or vicinity. If you get above R, everything seems to point east. P1 in South & Central Asia and an almost unambiguous diversification of K2 in southeast Asia.

I dont think but could be very wrong that those basal R1b* are significiant if they are all related for exemple with iranian ethnic, they could be for exemple being stationed for millenia in modern Turkmenistan and migrate at a certain point because of population movement but at the same time, being culturally integrated to stay in a certain geographic and cultural-ethnic continuum. About the Z2103 sample, i'm actually try to compute in my head how P297 - M269 - L23 and Z2103 could be distribute in those time, without coumpting every little subclades downstream from P297 that mostly nobody knows about aside of modern samples. I'm not enough cultivate in population movement and not at all at sampling computing, but for those very related subclades i hope to think that their geographic distance can not be so dramatic. Satsurblia and Kotias somehow kill the idea that some R1b subclades could be native to the southern part of the caucasus mountains, but we dont have dna from the northern side. There is J1 in Satsurblia totally CHG and J1 in Karelia totally EHG. So we might also think to the idea of a first movement from the north to the south of the caucasus by some R1b, and a remigration with southern genetic and cultural package. Thing is, this story as no end because multiple theoric important places for explain the migration pattern are not sampled if they are one day, it might not be the good time range.

 

[holderlin]

Everyone repeat after me:

"Indo-Iranian languages came from bronze age steppe populations"

This is as factual of a statement as we can get with this "science". There's been 3 papers now showing significant EBA_Steppe and LMBA_steppe ancestry in Indic and Iranian speakers, one of which is using known ancient Scythian genomes. And some of these samples were almost completely steppe genotypes. So we have archaeology, historical record, linguistics, and genetics all aligning. This is an important fact that people are dismissing in their attempts to disprove steppe PIE and/or Sanskrit steppe origins.

Not being able to find a bunch of R1a at a certain time and certain place doesn't undo the ancient autosomal data, modern autosomal data, the R1a seen in ancient Iranian speakers, or the historical attestation of Avestan and Sanskrit.