Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[halfalp]

Everyone repeat after me:

"Indo-Iranian languages came from bronze age steppe populations"

This is as factual of a statement as we can get with this "science". There's been 3 papers now showing significant EBA_Steppe and LMBA_steppe ancestry in Indic and Iranian speakers, one of which is using known ancient Scythian genomes. And some of these samples were almost completely steppe genotypes. So we have archaeology, historical record, linguistics, and genetics all aligning. This is an important fact that people are dismissing in their attempts to disprove steppe PIE and/or Sanskrit steppe origins.

Not being able to find a bunch of R1a at a certain time and certain place doesn't undo the ancient autosomal data, modern autosomal data, the R1a seen in ancient Iranian speakers, or the historical attestation of Avestan and Sanskrit.

I think what people against what your say thinks is that R1a-Z93 and its indian downstream even if it was found in a Srubnaya context etc and because those indian sample doesn't have any R1a, R1a might be just a recent explosion into the highest indian class and because they where always wealthier, they become the predominant male lineage. A very communist story for the least. I dont know how this disprove the steppe origin of II languages because going from a clade related to modern population that could be out of the time frame for the steppe hypothesis doesn't all of a sudden rethink the all idea and place for exemple the origin of Indo-Iranian in Iran Neolithic related people. This is so over complicated, this just shows that people dont want those languages come from the steppe. To put a new hypothesis on the table, new datas must simplify history not complicate it, if it complicate it, it means people try to wright a story against a simple proved theory.

 

[markozd]

Still interesting that Indians at the time of the composition of the Vedas (I think the most famous AIT proponent Witzel put the location of the Rig-Veda in Punjab around 1400 - 1000 B. C. E., right between those samples) and during the lifetime of Buddha should have had an Y-DNA composition totally unlike today.

I believe there is a real possibility that cremation was more associated with certain Y-DNA, or that there might have been isles of R1a already in the subcontinent at that time. But that doesn't explain the high frequency of R1a-L657 in non-priestly groups of northern India.

Also interesting that the steppe influence in the samples we have is obvious on the maternal side.

 

[halfalp]

Still interesting that Indians at the time of the composition of the Vedas (I think the most famous AIT proponent Witzel put the location of the Rig-Veda in Punjab around 1400 - 1000 B. C. E., right between those samples) and during the lifetime of Buddha should have had an Y-DNA composition totally unlike today.

I believe there is a real possibility that cremation was more associated with certain Y-DNA, or that there might have been isles of R1a already in the subcontinent at that time. But that doesn't explain the high frequency of R1a-L657 in non-priestly groups of northern India.

Also interesting that the steppe influence in the samples we have is obvious on the maternal side.

Not really sure if its relevent but, in antiquity, there was an Indo-Scythian Kingdom rulling some part of the northern part of the indian subcontinent. Another possibility might be more regional, with R1a related tribes from maybe modern Afghanistan raiding multiple times throught the khyber pass pakistan and norther india. I think there was a tribe named the Kambojas in actual afghanistan known for their very pastoral and martial lifestyle. Interesting that they only have steppe dna coming from woman, might be a trail for cremation. Do we know the R1a subclades for ethne like for exemple Nuristani or Dardic people and are they rulling into the cast system ?

 

[markozd]

Not really sure if its relevent but, in antiquity, there was an Indo-Scythian Kingdom rulling some part of the northern part of the indian subcontinent. Another possibility might be more regional, with R1a related tribes from maybe modern Afghanistan raiding multiple times throught the khyber pass pakistan and norther india. I think there was a tribe named the Kambojas in actual afghanistan known for their very pastoral and martial lifestyle. Interesting that they only have steppe dna coming from woman, might be a trail for cremation. Do we know the R1a subclades for ethne like for exemple Nuristani or Dardic people and are they rulling into the cast system ?

I might be missing some, but as far as I know the only Indo-Aryan group that isn't predominantly L657 are the Chitral speaking Kalasha, who carry the Iranian variety Z2124.

I've also thought about the Scythians, but how would they have been able to spread their Y-DNA so thoroughly throughout the subcontinent?

 

[halfalp]

I might be missing some, but as far as I know the only Indo-Aryan group that isn't predominantly L657 are the Chitral speaking Kalasha, who carry the Iranian variety Z2124.I've also thought about the Scythians, but how would they have been able to spread their Y-DNA so thoroughly throughout the subcontinent?

Well we should first assume Scythian kingdoms doesn't where precarious kingdoms. If we take for exemple the Kushan Empire that lead North India for 300 years, i dont think they had a substantial genetic input, or do they ? I was more thinking about the fact that maybe in the " great india " including pakistan and afghanistan or even iran there might be more mobility than we previously thought and that the L657 could be come in antiquity from those place it wouldn't have a huge impact on culture because for two reasons, 1. they would all be primarly indo-iranian culturally and 2. the language might not shift because the priest order or caste was not removed whatever wich Indo-Iranian tribe would govern at a time. Avestic and Vedic shows strong link, we can imagine that all the Irano-Indian ethnocultural state autoinfluence itself with inner migrations. Certainly, scythians and ancestors of iranians and indians where already shifted in late iron age and that it takes time for the actual clades to emerge in numbers without any specific tribe.

 

[markozd]

Well we should first assume Scythian kingdoms doesn't where precarious kingdoms. If we take for exemple the Kushan Empire that lead North India for 300 years, i dont think they had a substantial genetic input, or do they ? I was more thinking about the fact that maybe in the " great india " including pakistan and afghanistan or even iran there might be more mobility than we previously thought and that the L657 could be come in antiquity from those place it wouldn't have a huge impact on culture because for two reasons, 1. they would all be primarly indo-iranian culturally and 2. the language might not shift because the priest order or caste was not removed whatever wich Indo-Iranian tribe would govern at a time. Avestic and Vedic shows strong link, we can imagine that all the Irano-Indian ethnocultural state autoinfluence itself with inner migrations. Certainly, scythians and ancestors of iranians and indians where already shifted in late iron age and that it takes time for the actual clades to emerge in numbers without any specific tribe.

I consider this a distinct possbility to be honest. The caste system was only instated in the Gupta period, so perhaps it exaggerated this kind of stratification and expecting lots and lots of R1a already in proto-historic times was really misguided.

 

[halfalp]

I consider this a distinct possbility to be honest. The caste system was only instated in the Gupta period, so perhaps it exaggerated this kind of stratification and expecting lots and lots of R1a already in proto-historic times was really misguided.

I was not referring to the Brahmin cast system but more in the general priest order that every indo-european culture had. When bell beaker invaded western europe, the native didnt have any relation both culturally and linguistically with the newcomers, so at long indo-europeans overrun the natifs. Indo-Iranian is a different story, we can imagine that Proto-Indo-Iranians outpassed BMAC and happenned to arrived and run a giant territory going from modern iran, at least eastern iran for the beginning, afghanistan, pakistan, north indian, maybe even up to the ferghana valley. From there, Proto-Indo-Iranians slightly shift with their northern scythian counterpart, but following the centuries, they little by little lost their proximity each other by mixing with the regional locals but keep their cultural relationship. So we could see an elite coming from exemple for afghanistan, rule some north india chieftains, give some genetic input ( different R1a clades, even maybe others ) but keep the local culture and language because it was not very different from their original one.

 

[markozd]

By the way, I went through the mtDNA again because something about the overall composition struck me as odd, but I couldn't put my finger on it. There is something that connects those Indians to the Black Sea and Eastern Europe area that is unlikely to have come from Anatolia or Iran. I then noticed that those Indians provide the first rough matches in ancient DNA with Maikop:

Krasnodar Krai, Maikop burial, 4000-3000 BCE, mtdna U8b1a2

Krasnodar Krai, Maikop burial, 3700-3300 BCE mtdna U8b1a2

V1.1.1, , Cucuteni, Ukraine, 3,700–3,500 cal BCE, mtdna U8b1a2

Republic of Adygea, Maikop burial, Russia, 3700-3300 BCE mtdna M52
-----

S8195.E1.L1, Udegram, mt-hg U8b1a2b, y-dna E1b1b1b2

S7719.E1.L1, Shaidu Sharif, mt-hg M52a


I wonder what the connection is, since the former is rather western, while the latter has a distribution on the subcontinent. More very specific matches:

I6547, Barikot, 1000-800 BCE, mtdna U8b1a1

I6194, Udegram, 1376-1041 cal BCE, mtdna U8b1a1, y-DNA CT

-----

I2755, Hungary, 3600-2850 BCE, mtdna U8b1a1, y-DNA I

 

[halfalp]

By the way, I went through the mtDNA again because something about the overall composition struck me as odd, but I couldn't put my finger on it. There is something that connects those Indians to the Black Sea and Eastern Europe area that is unlikely to have come from Anatolia or Iran. I then noticed that those Indians provide the first rough matches in ancient DNA with Maikop:

Krasnodar Krai, Maikop burial, 4000-3000 BCE, mtdna U8b1a2

Krasnodar Krai, Maikop burial, 3700-3300 BCE mtdna U8b1a2

Republic of Adygea, Maikop burial, Russia, 3700-3300 BCE mtdna M52

-----

S8195.E1.L1, Udegram, mt-hg U8b1a2b, y-dna E1b1b1b2

S7719.E1.L1, Shaidu Sharif, mt-hg M52a


I wonder what the connection is, since the former is rather western, while the latter has a distribution on the subcontinent.

Wow U8b1a2 and E1b1b1b2 in swat valley, that's a pretty weird but very interesting call. So why do you believe those maikop mtdna didn't came from south caucasus ?

 

[markozd]

Wow U8b1a2 and E1b1b1b2 in swat valley, that's a pretty weird but very interesting call. So why do you believe those maikop mtdna didn't came from south caucasus ?

It looks like U8b1 is heavily associated with the northern Black Sea: it's in Mesolithic Ukraine, Iron Gates & Baden Culture.

 

[halfalp]

It looks like U8b1 is heavily associated with the northern Black Sea: it's in Mesolithic Ukraine, Iron Gates & Baden Culture.

What ? i have completely miss those sample. I think i remember the Iron Gates one and fought it would be an early anatolian migration, but mesolithic ukraine ?

 

[Olympus Mons]

What ? i have completely miss those sample. I think i remember the Iron Gates one and fought it would be an early anatolian migration, but mesolithic ukraine ?

We have a U8b1a1 4486-4320 BC in Armenia as reported by Margaryan et al.
Like I keep saying. Something came from the east (east of Azerbaijan)/south after 4900 bc and rule the region.

But, where are the U8b1a1 in Iron gates and the places you mentioned? - I know of U8b1B1...not a.

 

[halfalp]

We have a U8b1a1 4486-4320 BC in Armenia as reported by Margaryan et al.
Like I keep saying. Something came from the east (east of Azerbaijan)/south after 4900 bc and rule the region.

But, where are the U8b1a1 in Iron gates and the places you mentioned? - I know of U8b1B1...not a.

MarkoZ didn't say any specific downstream apart that it belongs to U8b1

 

[Olympus Mons]

MarkoZ didn't say any specific downstream apart that it belongs to U8b1

Ok.
I know of first in iron gates, a bit later in barcin anatolia, then armenia pre kura araxes, then Tripolye in balkans.... But not mesolithic ukraine.

 

[markozd]

What ? i have completely miss those sample. I think i remember the Iron Gates one and fought it would be an early anatolian migration, but mesolithic ukraine ?

I misremembered - it's not Mesolithic but Tripolye already! So theoretically an origin in the southern Cacausus can't be excluded.

Another interesting mtDNA match between South Asia & Europe: U4d, which has a high frequency in Dereivka and associated cultures of Ukrainian HGs.

What is confusing however is the complete lack of U5 in the South Asian samples. Anyone got an idea? There are western mtDNA lineages not found in Iranian farmers, but despite steppe admixture U5 and R1a seem to be missing or scarce. Puzzling, almost as if the steppe group that admixed into South Asia was differentiated from Andronovo & associated cultures.

 

[halfalp]

I misremembered - it's not Mesolithic but Tripolye already! So theoretically an origin in the southern Cacausus can't be excluded.

Another interesting mtDNA match between South Asia & Europe: U4d, which has a high frequency in Dereivka and associated cultures of Ukrainian HGs.

What is confusing however is the complete lack of U5 in the South Asian samples. Anyone got an idea? There are western mtDNA lineages not found in Iranian farmers, but despite steppe admixture U5 and R1a seem to be missing or scarce. Puzzling, almost as if the steppe group that admixed into South Asia was differentiated from Andronovo & associated cultures.

I remember to have saw on Jean Manco site some Mari, sumerian time sample being U4, not really remember wich clade of U4. U5a was very dominant in eastern europe cultures, might just be that U4d was more popular at contrario of U5a. I dont know the prevalence of U5 in modern India, but if there is U5 in modern india it's definitely of steppic origin. Pretty sur for exemple that U5a was found in Afanasevo sample, and even before in neolithic baikal, so they do have roam through the steppe. Seems like this asian study misslead us by her dna sample.

 

[markozd]

I remember to have saw on Jean Manco site some Mari, sumerian time sample being U4, not really remember wich clade of U4. U5a was very dominant in eastern europe cultures, might just be that U4d was more popular at contrario of U5a. I dont know the prevalence of U5 in modern India, but if there is U5 in modern india it's definitely of steppic origin. Pretty sur for exemple that U5a was found in Afanasevo sample, and even before in neolithic baikal, so they do have roam through the steppe. Seems like this asian study misslead us by her dna sample.

According to Firasat (2007) there's no U5 in the most steppe admixed South Asians, the Kalash. Lots and lots of U4 however:

pre-HV = 22.7%
HV* = 4.5%
H (354, CRS)= 4.5%
U2e = 15.9%
U4 = 34.1%
U7 = 2.3%,
J2 = 9.1%
J1 = 2.3%
T (xT1) = 4.5%

Tbh, considering all this I find it extremely unlikely that Andronovo admixed into these South Asians. I have no alternative explanation however.

By the way, I found another ancient U8b1a2 in Ukraine, CT: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0172952&type=printable

 

[halfalp]

According to Firasat (2007) there's no U5 in the most steppe admixed South Asians, the Kalash. Lots and lots of U4 however:

pre-HV = 22.7%
HV* = 4.5%
H (354, CRS)= 4.5%
U2e = 15.9%
U4 = 34.1%
U7 = 2.3%,
J2 = 9.1%
J1 = 2.3%
T (xT1) = 4.5%

Tbh, considering all this I find it extremely unlikely that Andronovo admixed into these South Asians. I have no alternative explanation however.

By the way, I found another ancient U8b1a2 in Ukraine, CT: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0172952&type=printable

Andronovo is just a broad term of related sites like Yamnayas where, we dont know actually at what extend andronovos where shifted between them. For exemple, if we take yamnaya, the eastern part as migrate in east and create afanasevo and the western part as migrate in west and create tisza kurgans. But how those two where really related ? we know they came from the same source but we dont know the exact similarity in there genetic, we know afanasevo was almost indistinguishable from yamaya, but what part of yamnaya ? same from andronovo, what the study said is that BMAC or other eastern iranian neolithic dont have directly participate to indian gene pools, but it's doesn't mean that andronovo was all similar, northern part was more likely to be siberian shifted and southern part to be iranian shifted, so the results can be missleading if we look at andronovo as a genetic coherent whole, more the century have gone, more the steppe component was diluted into regional gene pools. I'm pretty sure we could found some heavy MLBA Steppe in Central Asia, we just have to found them.

 

[markozd]

Andronovo is just a broad term of related sites like Yamnayas where, we dont know actually at what extend andronovos where shifted between them. For exemple, if we take yamnaya, the eastern part as migrate in east and create afanasevo and the western part as migrate in west and create tisza kurgans. But how those two where really related ? we know they came from the same source but we dont know the exact similarity in there genetic, we know afanasevo was almost indistinguishable from yamaya, but what part of yamnaya ? same from andronovo, what the study said is that BMAC or other eastern iranian neolithic dont have directly participate to indian gene pools, but it's doesn't mean that andronovo was all similar, northern part was more likely to be siberian shifted and southern part to be iranian shifted, so the results can be missleading if we look at andronovo as a genetic coherent whole, more the century have gone, more the steppe component was diluted into regional gene pools. I'm pretty sure we could found some heavy MLBA Steppe in Central Asia, we just have to found them.

I'm sure the right population will be found eventually. But I still find the findings in the paper very strange to say the least.

 

[johen]

In Eurogenes, it was said that west HG and Dali early bronze seemed to be connected to northern Pakistan Burusho people.
So I think siberian HG would be light eyes, light hair (and just maybe light skin also). It has already proved that red hair came from EHG being connected to AG 2 last year. The scythian also has red hairs. The highest frequency of red hair is in udmurt people.

http://www.aboluowang.com/2014/1120/474691.html