Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[Angela]

In Eurogenes, it was said that west HG and Dali early bronze seemed to be connected to northern Pakistan Burusho people.
So I think siberian HG would be light eyes, light hair (and just maybe light skin also). It has already proved that red hair came from EHG being connected to AG 2 last year. The scythian also has red hairs. The highest frequency of red hair is in udmurt people.

http://www.aboluowang.com/2014/1120/474691.html

No need to speculate. We have the samples and they'll be able to check.

 

[Angela]

I'm sure a good number of Indians would still disagree, but it seems clear to me that they can't blame caste distinctions on the British or other Europeans.

It is definitely ancestry based and protected by strict endogamy.

See:
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/04...nalism/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

For the record, the sexual victimization of lower caste women by higher caste men is not a "trivial" matter, of course, not even in pop gen terms. I think it could have spread R1a and "steppe" ancestry into lower castes.

 

[halfalp]

I'm sure a good number of Indians would still disagree, but it seems clear to me that they can't blame caste distinctions on the British or other Europeans.

It is definitely ancestry based and protected by strict endogamy.

See:
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/04...nalism/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

For the record, the sexual victimization of lower caste women by higher caste men is not a "trivial" matter, of course, not even in pop gen terms. I think it could have spread R1a and "steppe" ancestry into lower castes.

Assume that indian men have been strictly faithul to their spouses is an utopic ideal. Like all civilizations in history and present, men and women sometimes are unfaithful. Without speaking about all the eventual rape that Khsatriyas could have perpetrate in periods of war. You can descend from kings and be a simple hobo in your life, this is our reality.

 

[Alan]

Well, here we go back to the all R1a, R1b, PIE came from Kurdistan. Just with a single sample.

No one was talking about the origin of R1b and R1a as a whole. R1b being in West Asia pre Bronze Age is only important for the dispersal and origin of PIE family not R1b as a whole.

R1b and R1a could have evolved somewhere in Central Asia sometime during the mesolithic or paleolithic. It doesn't matter for the origin of PIE 10-20000 years later.

 

[Alan]

Without citing anyone, i'm pretty sur Goga was not the only one who fought Iranic languages and so R1a originate in Kurdistan. People took Mascarenhas and Underhill papers from granted back in 2015 and not just Goga.

Underhill pointed out based on samples collected, that the oldest R1b and R1a clades are found there. And based on this the conclusion of the paper was that both Haplogroups originated at this place. And Goga the biggest defender of this idea was also one of the rare cases who belonged to R1a m420 with no downstream mutations. The upstream ancestor of all modern R1a1.

It is quite possible that this high diversity of R1b and R1a in Kurdistan and the Iranian Plateau is the result of "migration". But I somehow don't see how this could be the Baltic area during a timeline (mesolithic) where there would be absolutely no reason or trace for H&G migrating all the way back into Kurdistan. If this diversity comes from outside. The only regions I see in a reasonable distance where they might have come from is A: South_Central Asia (Afghanistan to Kazakhstan). B: the Caucasus C: the Balkans.

But once again the origin of R1b and R1a has no connection to the dispersal of Indo European languages, let alone the Indo-Iranic branch.

 

[Alan]

well, there is no J2b sampled in Yamna, Afanasievo, Poltavka, Catacomb ..

and it was succesfull at that time, the first cattle and oxen drawn wagons occupying the whole Pontic steppe by a single clade, while original HG had to confine themselves to the river valleys, and later on also expanding east through the Kazakh steppe upto the Altaï Mts
it was something which was impossible prior to the invention of the wheel
and appearantly the Pontic steppe was the ideal terrain for this, not Transcaucasia or Iran

and what you say about related y clades spreading is true
that is why I'm not sure about the connection between haji firuz and yamna

I would be cautios with that, what hasn't been found can still pop up. Remember that J1 EHG sample from mesolithic Keralia? I still argue if we find J1 during the mesolithic in the North and J samples south of Yamnaya I would honestly be suprised to not find any in Yamnaya or surroundings. But since all these Steppe cultures like Poltavka Catacomb Afanasievo seem to be Elite orientated and dominated by one or very few Haplogroups. I don't think it is far fetched to assume that other Haplogroups have been driven out.

 

[Alan]

BBC - How ancient DNA is transforming our view of the past

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43701630

Asked about the criticisms, the Harvard professor told me: "I'm actually very pleased to be part of introducing this discussion. I think that scientists have been anxious about discussing differences among populations in public fora, even though all the work that we do is about differences among populations and learning about their history. The anxiety is about possible misuse of that data - for good reason."
He stressed the need for scientists to take charge of the narrative, lest they hand the initiative to those with less benign intentions. "The thing I have felt very strongly, increasingly over time, is that the fact that scientists are too afraid to speak up about these topics means that the vacuum… gets filled by people who don't really know the scientific facts," he explains.

I like that part.

 

[Alan]

I do not find the case for an origin of R1b-M269 on the Iranian plateau very strong either, to be honest. These places are rather overstudied compared to other regions in the Middle East. But to get an idea we'd need a decent amount of pre-neolithic samples.

tbf if anything the Iranian Plateau is understudied. Europe is the most overstudied part. And withing West Asia /Near East the Iranian Plateau is one of the most understudied.

 

[Olympus Mons]

....But once again the origin of R1b and R1a has no connection to the dispersal of Indo European languages, let alone the Indo-Iranic branch.

Alan,
The Origin of R1b/R1a is epochs ane eons earlier than PIE. so, agree.
Now... dos M269 and L23 have anything to do with PIE? - I think so. I can run in a story, because stories have Time, something people here seem so often to forget.

in your view (so have all the liberty) what would be wrong with the following statements:

1. Pre-pre- PIE (lets say 30% of PIE) , if anything similar to, was spoken by M269, somewhere in south Balkans. Let’s say Romania, Bulgaria even parts of Serbia, say 6500BC.
2. We know that by 6500bc onwards, the contacts between this Iron gates people and Anatolian farmers was booming. So much that by 6300bc-6000bc, this former highly pastoral/no agriculture populations disappeared (except in Lepenski Vir) for that period of time, being replaced by Starcevo populations.
3. However, by that time, 6300bc, we also see the rise of agricultural but atypical high big cattle pastoral population in Fikirtepe North of Anatolia. Related to Barcin but separated. Here, that previous population is learning lots of names from agriculture (lets say PIE is 60% formed).
4. By 6000BC, we see the rise of a population that are master of domestication in south Caucasus, people saying that, because the amount of types of cereal they cultivate is so, diverse, so diverse, that is strange. All types and even having Spelt, coming from the Balkans. As if collecting species on route. They kept however having a strange large amount of Pastoral live and an even strange doubt in everyone’s mind because were very transhumance like people -These is L23 was born (5500bc?). As was PIE (70%)
5. Later stages, 5500 bc onwards, sees increase contacts of Shulaveri with parts of Nortwestern Iran and Azerbaijan. There is where one sees that hajji Firuz Z2103 (5400bc?) By then, after so long contacts with Pure CHG in georgia and some Iran_neolithic they have a very composed language, very rich and a good admix for that matter.
6. By 4900 BC! – Shulaveri was gone, altogether. 100% PiE Perfectly speaking PIE of R1b-M269 and L23 and Z2103 moved several places. Scatter. Some to the hills (north and south) just miles way. Some back to the east cost of black sea into Kuban river (Mesokho and so forth) and later up samara river to be part of Khvalynsk and later Yamnaya. Here thy might become LPie or whatever.
7. The same PIE speakers, moved back to Balkans. Maybe L51 was born there and disseminate with Bell beakers (I still doubt it). But my problem is. If Yamanya spoke PIE and let’s call it Shulaveri-Balkans also spoke a similar language by 4000 bc. And for sure not long they were in contact again… it just roughs the story of Steppe a little bit because Lpie might not be just steppe, does it not? But surely ties it very well for R1b-L23 and PIE, does it not?

 

[markozd]

tbf if anything the Iranian Plateau is understudied. Europe is the most overstudied part. And withing West Asia /Near East the Iranian Plateau is one of the most understudied.

Compared to Europe every place is undersampled I guess. My thinking was that R1b-M269 would most likely not have been among the earliest adopters of agriculture due to its structure which implies expansion closer to the chalcolithic. In some parts of the Middle East that aren't very suited to agriculture like Saudi Arabia & Oman there were hunting & finishing cultures until 3000-2000 B.C. It would be interesting to get some samples from those places.

But perhaps the date estimates are completely wrong, and M269 is just a minor lineage of the neolithic, idk. We'll see when more samples are published.

 

[markozd]

Alan,
The Origin of R1b/R1a is epochs ane eons earlier than PIE. so, agree.
Now... dos M269 and L23 have anything to do with PIE? - I think so. I can run in a story, because stories have Time, something people here seem so often to forget.

in your view (so have all the liberty) what would be wrong with the following statements:

1. Pre-pre- PIE (lets say 30% of PIE) , if anything similar to, was spoken by M269, somewhere in south Balkans. Let’s say Romania, Bulgaria even parts of Serbia, say 6500BC.
2. We know that by 6500bc onwards, the contacts between this Iron gates people and Anatolian farmers was booming. So much that by 6300bc-6000bc, this former highly pastoral/no agriculture populations disappeared (except in Lepenski Vir) for that period of time, being replaced by Starcevo populations.
3. However, by that time, 6300bc, we also see the rise of agricultural but atypical high big cattle pastoral population in Fikirtepe North of Anatolia. Related to Barcin but separated. Here, that previous population is learning lots of names from agriculture (lets say PIE is 60% formed).
4. By 6000BC, we see the rise of a population that are master of domestication in south Caucasus, people saying that, because the amount of types of cereal they cultivate is so, diverse, so diverse, that is strange. All types and even having Spelt, coming from the Balkans. As if collecting species on route. They kept however having a strange large amount of Pastoral live and an even strange doubt in everyone’s mind because were very transhumance like people -These is L23 was born (5500bc?). As was PIE (70%)
5. Later stages, 5500 bc onwards, sees increase contacts of Shulaveri with parts of Nortwestern Iran and Azerbaijan. There is where one sees that hajji Firuz Z2103 (5400bc?) By then, after so long contacts with Pure CHG in georgia and some Iran_neolithic they have a very composed language, very rich and a good admix for that matter.
6. By 4900 BC! – Shulaveri was gone, altogether. 100% PiE Perfectly speaking PIE of R1b-M269 and L23 and Z2103 moved several places. Scatter. Some to the hills (north and south) just miles way. Some back to the east cost of black sea into Kuban river (Mesokho and so forth) and later up samara river to be part of Khvalynsk and later Yamnaya. Here thy might become LPie or whatever.
7. The same PIE speakers, moved back to Balkans. Maybe L51 was born there and disseminate with Bell beakers (I still doubt it). But my problem is. If Yamanya spoke PIE and let’s call it Shulaveri-Balkans also spoke a similar language by 4000 bc. And for sure not long they were in contact again… it just roughs the story of Steppe a little bit because Lpie might not be just steppe, does it not? But surely ties it very well for R1b-L23 and PIE, does it not?

Where do you even get this from? This is complete fantasy.

 

[holderlin]

Where do you even get this from? This is complete fantasy.

Thank you

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[holderlin]

"overstudied" has to be my favorite so far in this thread.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Where do you even get this from? This is complete fantasy.

...you need to explain why is a fantasy. otherwise you are just triggered by something you didn't like to read. buh buh. snif snif.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Thank you

.

The text is a challenge to anyone to show whats wrong with it...
"in your view (so have all the liberty) what would be wrong with the following statements:"
and both replies I had were by all standards extremely poor.

... oh and by the way, in the end I will be correct. Correct along side with all others that then will "knew all along".
I just need for Johannes Krause and now David Reich to show the results of south Caucasus and say at that point, what I have been saying all along so that everybody can start saying also they "knew all along." Its a matter of time.

 

[halfalp]

The text is a challenge to anyone to show whats wrong with it...
"in your view (so have all the liberty) what would be wrong with the following statements:"
and both replies I had were by all standards extremely poor.

... oh and by the way, in the end I will be correct. Correct along side with all others that then will "knew all along".
I just need for Johannes Krause and now David Reich to show the results of south Caucasus and say at that point, what I have been saying all along so that everybody can start saying also they "knew all along." Its a matter of time.

You have the right to create your own hypothesis or story, i'm pretty sur we all do that to some extent, but what challenge do you want ? we dont even have an high rate sampling from western asia to try to wright a story about prehistory yet. At this point it doesn't make sense to talk about basal PIE origin.

 

[Olympus Mons]

You have the right to create your own hypothesis or story, i'm pretty sur we all do that to some extent, but what challenge do you want ? we dont even have an high rate sampling from western asia to try to wright a story about prehistory yet. At this point it doesn't make sense to talk about basal PIE origin.

I am looking for someone saying "this part is impossible/erroneous/improbable because..."

 

[holderlin]

The text is a challenge to anyone to show whats wrong with it...
"in your view (so have all the liberty) what would be wrong with the following statements:"
and both replies I had were by all standards extremely poor.

... oh and by the way, in the end I will be correct. Correct along side with all others that then will "knew all along".
I just need for Johannes Krause and now David Reich to show the results of south Caucasus and say at that point, what I have been saying all along so that everybody can start saying also they "knew all along." Its a matter of time.

Help me understand your wine trade theory. From what I know of this early wine evidence it's a circum-Black Sea thing. Is this what you think PIE was?

It is interesting that the earliest evidence of wine is in that dispersal pattern regardless of PIE.

 

[Saetrus]

Help me understand your wine trade theory. From what I know of this early wine evidence it's a circum-Black Sea thing. Is this what you think PIE was?

It is interesting that the earliest evidence of wine is in that dispersal pattern regardless of PIE.

It's simple, Shulaveri-Shomu is the PIE culture and it's where wine is first found, they loved their creation so much they got constantly drunk, became huge troublemakers, thought they could conquer the world.

Then the story of wine spreading is like the story of Indoeuropean spreading itself Georgia (c. 6000 BC), Iran (c. 5000 BC), Greece (c. 4500 BC), and Sicily (c. 4000 BC).

 

[berun]

It was not in such way, IEs went to villages with their wine pretending to sell it, so they gave free samples, thereafter all locals got drunk and once they were sleeping on the floor the IEs delivered them, is by that that England came to be depleted of local EEF by Bell Beakers, the difference is that Bell Beakers served beers in their fashion pots. It's everything so clear.