Central and South Asian DNA Paper

Now seriously, looking at Indus Valley Civilization I found this interesting map:

View attachment 10037

if it's correct the pre-Indus sites were all west of the Indus, in the mountains, and that would make sense to me: the Indus basin was mainly desertical, not allowing rainfed agriculture, moreover in its east you find the Thar desert; so it was a major obstacle for an eastward colonization of Zagros' farmers.

In fact colonizing Asia was not like colonizing Europe, in Europe you can have a farming plot almost everywhere getting anual crops from it, but from Kurdistan to the south early farmers only had two big rivers and a big desert impossible to farm except if you have much people as to open irrigation channels geting water from the main rivers. To the east farmers had some better conditions: Iran, Pakistan, Afganistan and Central Asia are arid regions with anual precipitation below 300 mm (wheat and barley need 400 mm in its growing period), so farmers only had the possibility to colonize the wettest places in the piedmonts as well as oasis.

View attachment 10038

View attachment 10039

View attachment 10040

I like to thing that major domestications (wheat, barley, cows, sheeps, goats) are related to specific haplos (R1b, L, J1, J2, E...); also it would be possible that under the conditions seen there would be three main colonizations: pioneer herders (goat herders as can eat everything), dry farmers, and irrigation system farmers, being the last wave the most numerous, coming provably from an experienced and populous culture of Iraq (Uruk, Ubaid). Also as the farming land is scattered, a lot of genetic drift and bottlenecks are expected.

The first map contains an interesting image: the neolithic sites are in actual Iranian languages zone, the Indus and more recent sites are in Indic languages zone.

The BMAC culture and Indus Valey Culture thrived by creating irrigation channels, expanding farming land and population. The IVC died after a series of droughts, so that people went east, and maybe in such migration the Indic languages spread east also; maybe there were steppe/cow herders profiting the available new grazing land by irrigation system, or they were a military elite that profited the slow diying process of the IVC. Another point would be to thing that the farmers mastering irrigation were already IE, but even such idea clashes in my mind.
 
Help me understand your wine trade theory. From what I know of this early wine evidence it's a circum-Black Sea thing. Is this what you think PIE was?
It is interesting that the earliest evidence of wine is in that dispersal pattern regardless of PIE.
Humm. Never said anything about wine trade. Don't even know how that would be possible. There was no long term preservants so how would that be possible? Only in places where vitis vinsfera existed they could make wine.
Connection i made was about people that knew how to make wine where vitis vinisfera existed...However subsequent wine making cast were mostly not local but imported casts from caucasus.
The connection I always follow is spelt (spelta) ....there. Spelt is the most resistant species of cereal, speciallly to climatic conditions and disease.
There was only spelt in Vinca and shulaveri by 5600bc and we today know that Shulaveri spelt was a local hybridization. Not imported. So they knew how to do it.
Then by 4000bc spelt is found in Merimde beni salama in egypt, the people that brought agriculture, pigs, dogs...and spelt. Actually very arguably the ones that started to try to tame ...donkeys.
At that same time spelt shows up (or hexasploid hybrid) in north caucasus.
Note ... Spelt was later connected by some (read bellbeakerblogger) to Bell beakers in central europe.
...Spelt is found in a bell beaker north Portugal and it was predominately found in north caucasus and russia up until 18th century and today is predominat only in....north spain!

Now wine?...tricky. And a very long story.
As is with horses and dogs. Especially mtdna in eastern anatolia kangal dog, south caucasus dog and portuguese serra da estrela. All look alike. All same rare mtdna. All imemorial races.
 
Now seriously, looking at Indus Valley Civilization I found this interesting map:

View attachment 10037

if it's correct the pre-Indus sites were all west of the Indus, in the mountains, and that would make sense to me: the Indus basin was mainly desertical, not allowing rainfed agriculture, moreover in its east you find the Thar desert; so it was a major obstacle for an eastward colonization of Zagros' farmers.

In fact colonizing Asia was not like colonizing Europe, in Europe you can have a farming plot almost everywhere getting anual crops from it, but from Kurdistan to the south early farmers only had two big rivers and a big desert impossible to farm except if you have much people as to open irrigation channels geting water from the main rivers. To the east farmers had some better conditions: Iran, Pakistan, Afganistan and Central Asia are arid regions with anual precipitation below 300 mm (wheat and barley need 400 mm in its growing period), so farmers only had the possibility to colonize the wettest places in the piedmonts as well as oasis.

View attachment 10038

View attachment 10039

View attachment 10040

I like to thing that major domestications (wheat, barley, cows, sheeps, goats) are related to specific haplos (R1b, L, J1, J2, E...); also it would be possible that under the conditions seen there would be three main colonizations: pioneer herders (goat herders as can eat everything), dry farmers, and irrigation system farmers, being the last wave the most numerous, coming provably from an experienced and populous culture of Iraq (Uruk, Ubaid). Also as the farming land is scattered, a lot of genetic drift and bottlenecks are expected.

The first map contains an interesting image: the neolithic sites are in actual Iranian languages zone, the Indus and more recent sites are in Indic languages zone.

The BMAC culture and Indus Valey Culture thrived by creating irrigation channels, expanding farming land and population. The IVC died after a series of droughts, so that people went east, and maybe in such migration the Indic languages spread east also; maybe there were steppe/cow herders profiting the available new grazing land by irrigation system, or they were a military elite that profited the slow diying process of the IVC. Another point would be to thing that the farmers mastering irrigation were already IE, but even such idea clashes in my mind.
But isn't the Thar Desert way more young than that ? i recall some searcher thinking the place became arid only in late antiquity by the evaporation of the legendary Sarasvati River.
 
Humm. Never said anything about wine trade. Don't even know how that would be possible. There was no long term preservants so how would that be possible? Only in places where vitis vinsfera existed they could make wine.
Connection i made was about people that knew how to make wine where vitis vinisfera existed...However subsequent wine making cast were mostly not local but imported casts from caucasus.
The connection I always follow is spelt (spelta) ....there. Spelt is the most resistant species of cereal, speciallly to climatic conditions and disease.
There was only spelt in Vinca and shulaveri by 5600bc and we today know that Shulaveri spelt was a local hybridization. Not imported. So they knew how to do it.
Then by 4000bc spelt is found in Merimde beni salama in egypt, the people that brought agriculture, pigs, dogs...and spelt. Actually very arguably the ones that started to try to tame ...donkeys.
At that same time spelt shows up (or hexasploid hybrid) in north caucasus.
Note ... Spelt was later connected by some (read bellbeakerblogger) to Bell beakers in central europe.
...Spelt is found in a bell beaker north Portugal and it was predominately found in north caucasus and russia up until 18th century and today is predominat only in....north spain!
Now wine?...tricky. And a very long story.
As is with horses and dogs. Especially mtdna in eastern anatolia kangal dog, south caucasus dog and portuguese serra da estrela. All look alike. All same rare mtdna. All imemorial races.
But Vinca is a melting by previous Lepenski Vir and EEF, what is the link with South Caucasus and Shulaveri-Shomu ?
 
But Vinca is a melting by previous Lepenski Vir and EEF, what is the link with South Caucasus and Shulaveri-Shomu ?
...exactly.
And yet the two earliest cultures that had spelt ( being that shulaveri invented their own) was those two.
As for the fact that those were the two ones showing copper at those dates (6000bc - 5500bc)...

Lepenski were taken over by starcevo cris by 6300bc... But the ones further east, full of R1b , moved south and to the caucasus.
Connolly et al 2012 makes the point that large cattle links iron gates , and Ovocora gorata and schelei in romania_bulgaria to places like Fikirtepe and even as southeast as hagoshrim in israel. I just add Shulaveri.

Se what I wrote in april 2017
https://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo.pt/hagoshrim-6121

Bearing in mind the sample of Hajji Firuz pay attention to this paragraph. "By 6000BC they reached south Caucasus. Already with influences of Barcin agriculturalists and probably with contact with Iran_Neolithic and (Kultepe culture)s and somehow that is where PIE originated"
"
 
halfAlp,
This is an anwser I gave to a guy in eurogenes (rob) that I particularly like and think is most time right.

@Rob
Never answer the question of SSC people from Balkans.
No, no papers that I’ve seen. But up until recently archeo papers were always very local.
Shulaveri always had more domestic cattle (Bos) than the rest of the region (as well as horses). That separate them from the rest. And they clearly share traits with Fikirtepe (which had a staggering volume of Cattle (35%).
reading conoly 2012 et al it’s clear that there was a corridor of people from that went from Iron gates to places like Ho
It really looks like some of the people at Iron gates (the ones liking Oval huts) shared traits with Ovocora gorata (Bulgaria) , cultures in Romania and fikirtepe at south shores of black sea. Follow the map and you end up in Shulaveri. Not a big leap.
Anyway conoly et al 2012 connects cattle context from Ovčarovo Gorata, to fikirtepe to Halula even to north Israel (Hogoshim) by domestic cattle volume as a trait. I just added SSC.
Anyway, just follow Obsidian fanatics and you also have the same connections.
And most important. Follow Spelt! By 5600bc, which were the two only cultures where Spelt as found? – Shulaveri and Vinca.
www.researchgate.net/publication/23...m_early_Neolithic_sites_in_SW_Asia_and_Europe
 
It was not in such way, IEs went to villages with their wine pretending to sell it, so they gave free samples, thereafter all locals got drunk and once they were sleeping on the floor the IEs delivered them, is by that that England came to be depleted of local EEF by Bell Beakers, the difference is that Bell Beakers served beers in their fashion pots. It's everything so clear.

Lol, you know I did think of this for Bell Beaker. Sweeping in getting girls drunk and laying down the L23 seed. Getting everyone drunk to keep them complacent.

But you don't have to be orchestrating some complex chemical warfare scheme for wine to be a significant factor in trade/expansion.

It's a fun theory
 
halfAlp,
This is an anwser I gave to a guy in eurogenes (rob) that I particularly like and think is most time right.

@Rob
Never answer the question of SSC people from Balkans.
No, no papers that I’ve seen. But up until recently archeo papers were always very local.
Shulaveri always had more domestic cattle (Bos) than the rest of the region (as well as horses). That separate them from the rest. And they clearly share traits with Fikirtepe (which had a staggering volume of Cattle (35%).
reading conoly 2012 et al it’s clear that there was a corridor of people from that went from Iron gates to places like Ho
It really looks like some of the people at Iron gates (the ones liking Oval huts) shared traits with Ovocora gorata (Bulgaria) , cultures in Romania and fikirtepe at south shores of black sea. Follow the map and you end up in Shulaveri. Not a big leap.
Anyway conoly et al 2012 connects cattle context from Ovčarovo Gorata, to fikirtepe to Halula even to north Israel (Hogoshim) by domestic cattle volume as a trait. I just added SSC.
Anyway, just follow Obsidian fanatics and you also have the same connections.
And most important. Follow Spelt! By 5600bc, which were the two only cultures where Spelt as found? – Shulaveri and Vinca.
www.researchgate.net/publication/232701410_Species_distribution_modelling_of_ancient_cattle_from_early_Neolithic_sites_in_SW_Asia_and_Europe

OK, but we know that these Balkan farming cultures are descended from Anatolian farmers from like 9000BC. Way earlier than any SSC, and these Anatolians likely domesticated the Taurine line. I don't know if the farmed spelt, but given the location it seems likely. So we don't really need SSC for Balkan farming cultures.
 
But isn't the Thar Desert way more young than that ? i recall some searcher thinking the place became arid only in late antiquity by the evaporation of the legendary Sarasvati River.
In any event the limits of the IVC do not seem to have been the Thar desert but rather the Ganges and the Deccan Platue. I find it curious that the Ganges wasn't exploited until after the fall of the IVCs but perhaps this area is not conducive to wheat farming and could only be used effectively after the transition to rice as the major crop of South Asia? I've read it's because they didn't have the tools to clear the forests efficiently in the area until the Iron Age but I don't buy that.
 
OK, but we know that these Balkan farming cultures are descended from Anatolian farmers from like 9000BC. Way earlier than any SSC, and these Anatolians likely domesticated the Taurine line. I don't know if the farmed spelt, but given the location it seems likely. So we don't really need SSC for Balkan farming cultures.
You get me confused.
SSC were ( or could may well be) a mix of mesolithic HG and fishers from bulgaria, Romania and iron gates and farmers. Either late anatolian farmers or northwest european farmers going southeastern, into or back to, thrace and north anatolia. I dont know.
What we know is that initial farmers avoided, altogether, thrace and Balkans, which only got agriculture much later.
What we know is that the original HG, which we knew were full of R1b, by 6300bc vanished and there was a hiatus of 300 years until replaced there, balkans, by starcevo-Cris like people. We also know that it was at the exact time agriculture also was approaching from the south.
And we don't know what they looked like. What we know is that fikirtepe is not typical barcin.
 
In any event the limits of the IVC do not seem to have been the Thar desert but rather the Ganges and the Deccan Platue. I find it curious that the Ganges wasn't exploited until after the fall of the IVCs but perhaps this area is not conducive to wheat farming and could only be used effectively after the transition to rice as the major crop of South Asia? I've read it's because they didn't have the tools to clear the forests efficiently in the area until the Iron Age but I don't buy that.

Sometimes people come up with unlikely reasons for things. The Ganges probably wasn't exploited simply because the Indus was closer to the farming epicenter. Being embedded in dense jungle would have only been an obstacle for a limited time if populations were expanding and needed more food production. And I'm pretty sure IVC was cultivating both rice and wheat.
 
You get me confused.
SSC were ( or could may well be) a mix of mesolithic HG and fishers from bulgaria, Romania and iron gates and farmers. Either late anatolian farmers or northwest european farmers going southeastern, into or back to, thrace and north anatolia. I dont know.
What we know is that initial farmers avoided, altogether, thrace and Balkans, which only got agriculture much later.
What we know is that the original HG, which we knew were full of R1b, by 6300bc vanished and there was a hiatus of 300 years until replaced there, balkans, by starcevo-Cris like people. We also know that it was at the exact time agriculture also was approaching from the south.
And we don't know what they looked like. What we know is that fikirtepe is not typical barcin.

OK, so you're seeing Iron Gates as the origin of these R1b clades? You know, looking at V88 coming from the Ukraine, this isn't an unlikely scenario.
 
OK, so you're seeing Iron Gates as the origin of these R1b clades? You know, looking at V88 coming from the Ukraine, this isn't an unlikely scenario.

Yes. Shulaveri was exogenous to south Caucasus. So came from somewhere. Most likely and probable is near Iron Gates but more into the southeastern towards thrace. That is where M269 could be. And that means that M269 was the reason why agriculture avoided thrace and south balkans.
SSC was nothing else but the neolithization of that population as they moved into Anatolia and aouth Caucasus.
 
But isn't the Thar Desert way more young than that ? i recall some searcher thinking the place became arid only in late antiquity by the evaporation of the legendary Sarasvati River.

That doesn't matter, the area is under the 400 mm regime, an unproductive regions for extensive crops.
 
Lol, you know I did think of this for Bell Beaker. Sweeping in getting girls drunk and laying down the L23 seed. Getting everyone drunk to keep them complacent.

But you don't have to be orchestrating some complex chemical warfare scheme for wine to be a significant factor in trade/expansion.

It's a fun theory

The serious issue with such beer is that they added Hysciamus niger, which is toxic and causes allucinations... the BB were interred with such pots, I suppose that it was their haoma/soma in their religion.
 
In any event the limits of the IVC do not seem to have been the Thar desert but rather the Ganges and the Deccan Platue. I find it curious that the Ganges wasn't exploited until after the fall of the IVCs but perhaps this area is not conducive to wheat farming and could only be used effectively after the transition to rice as the major crop of South Asia? I've read it's because they didn't have the tools to clear the forests efficiently in the area until the Iron Age but I don't buy that.

It seems that the monsoon was more intense in such regions by then, and barley/wheat can't deal with so much humidity, but rice can.
 
The serious issue with such beer is that they added Hysciamus niger, which is toxic and causes allucinations... the BB were interred with such pots, I suppose that it was their haoma/soma in their religion.

That makes sense. Alot of debate as to what the Indic Soma is, but it's definitely something that you drink, so it's unlikley to be Cannabis, although you can make Cannabis drinks. There was definitely pot smoking among Steppe Iranians.
 
halfAlp,
This is an anwser I gave to a guy in eurogenes (rob) that I particularly like and think is most time right.

@Rob
Never answer the question of SSC people from Balkans.
No, no papers that I’ve seen. But up until recently archeo papers were always very local.
Shulaveri always had more domestic cattle (Bos) than the rest of the region (as well as horses). That separate them from the rest. And they clearly share traits with Fikirtepe (which had a staggering volume of Cattle (35%).
reading conoly 2012 et al it’s clear that there was a corridor of people from that went from Iron gates to places like Ho
It really looks like some of the people at Iron gates (the ones liking Oval huts) shared traits with Ovocora gorata (Bulgaria) , cultures in Romania and fikirtepe at south shores of black sea. Follow the map and you end up in Shulaveri. Not a big leap.
Anyway conoly et al 2012 connects cattle context from Ovčarovo Gorata, to fikirtepe to Halula even to north Israel (Hogoshim) by domestic cattle volume as a trait. I just added SSC.
Anyway, just follow Obsidian fanatics and you also have the same connections.
And most important. Follow Spelt! By 5600bc, which were the two only cultures where Spelt as found? – Shulaveri and Vinca.
www.researchgate.net/publication/232701410_Species_distribution_modelling_of_ancient_cattle_from_early_Neolithic_sites_in_SW_Asia_and_Europe
Well, i start to get your point and as Markoz mention few times ago, an origin for R1b-M269 somwhere near Romania or Bulgaria is always possible, but it stays assumptions for know and there is no consensus for where spelt are coming from.
 
This things are really delicious.
I was reading Anthrogenicas thread
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...ypothesis-quot&p=382413&viewfull=1#post382413

Apparently in a german documentary Johannes krauser is reiterating what he already said before Reich and what reich is publishing these days...south Caucasus definitly home of PIE.
Its worthwhile reading it. Because clearly is said that homeland is south caucasus, armenia and eastern anatolia, EVEN POSSIBLE western iran.
So clearly they know are "my Shulaveri". And if so, its irritatingly vague. Yamanaya yamanaya yamnaya...but when it comes to Shulaveri its always south Caucasus....there was only them there so its not rocket science to name them....
 
This things are really delicious.
I was reading Anthrogenicas thread
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...ypothesis-quot&p=382413&viewfull=1#post382413

Apparently in a german documentary Johannes krauser is reiterating what he already said before Reich and what reich is publishing these days...south Caucasus definitly home of PIE.
Its worthwhile reading it. Because clearly is said that homeland is south caucasus, armenia and eastern anatolia, EVEN POSSIBLE western iran.
So clearly they know are "my Shulaveri". And if so, its irritatingly vague. Yamanaya yamanaya yamnaya...but when it comes to Shulaveri its always south Caucasus....there was only them there so its not rocket science to name them....

.... And the denial in those forums is just delicious. Its really enjoyable to see how reich and Krause are on their way to be stupid and pathetic idiots that know nothing about the subject.
Indeed , Like we say in portugal, "there are more tides than sailors". And I sure took loads of bullshit in those forums. I am starting to feel vindicated.
 

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