Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 26 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 645

Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Balkanite's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-06-17
    Posts
    175
    Points
    2,209
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,209, Level: 13
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 241
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Ireland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hajji Firuz autosomal data for these 6 samples. (Green: Iranian Farmer - Orange: Anatolian Farmer)

    1. R1b-M269
    2. J2b
    3. No Y-dna
    4. J2b
    5. No Y-dna
    6. CT


    A simpler overview of the Y-Hg's from the study:

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    7 days registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    78
    Points
    990
    Level
    8
    Points: 990, Level: 8
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 160
    Overall activity: 48.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wow indeed. So, the Anatolian Neolithic stream may have come from two directions, one from over the Caucasus and one from "Old Europe"?

    If this is right, it also means our predictions as to dating are really off, yes? Wasn't R1b Z2103 supposed to be a lot younger than this?

    I'm interested in those two pulses north too, one into Khvalynsk and the other into Yamnaya.

    Overall "steppe" impact is not at all as high in South Asia as some would have had us believe. Maybe 10-20%, which would analogous perhaps to the situation in Greece? It's higher in Brahmins and princely castes, however, maybe from 20-30%.
    There was a paper last year that anticipated that age estimates based on ancient West Eurasian samples would be a bit off. Harris et al. "Rapid evolution of the human mutation spectrum". I think Reich referenced it a couple of times.

    About South Asia: could the Siberian HGs have been the confounding factor? I have long wondered about groups like the Kalash, who in some models appeared to have steppe ancestry on par with north-eastern Europeans, but 'tribal' South Asian Y-DNA profiles. It's the mtdna that appears to be West Eurasian.

  3. #28
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    406
    Points
    5,485
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,485, Level: 21
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Canada



    edit.........
    Last edited by johen; 01-04-18 at 05:05. Reason: sorry

  4. #29
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,759
    Points
    243,081
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,081, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    There was a paper last year that anticipated that age estimates based on ancient West Eurasian samples would be a bit off. Harris et al. "Rapid evolution of the human mutation spectrum". I think Reich referenced it a couple of times.

    About South Asia: could the Siberian HGs have been the confounding factor? I have long wondered about groups like the Kalash, who in some models appeared to have steppe ancestry on par with north-eastern Europeans, but 'tribal' South Asian Y-DNA profiles. It's the mtdna that appears to be West Eurasian.
    Well, having them as part of the equation certainly deflates the amount of steppe being proposed.

    It's weird, as I said in one of these threads, that there's only one R1a among all these ancient samples, and that's from a relatively more recent time, a couple of centuries BC. I mean, who brought the darn steppe genes to the Kalash among others? Amazon type female migrants? :)

    Maybe there are samples which the Reich Lab couldn't use because of the disputes with the Indian researchers?

    It's a puzzle.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #30
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,472
    Points
    56,878
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,878, Level: 73
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 172
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    According to this study, Mal'ta Boy was R1b-M269 and one of Iron Age Pakistan samples was R1b-U106.

    Something is wrong with some haplogroup assignments here. Unless there were Germanics in Pakistan.

    Mal'ta Boy is also way too old (~24,000 kya) to be R1b-M269.

  6. #31
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,759
    Points
    243,081
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,081, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    That may very well be. From what I hear, though, someone got the whole list of calls for this one sample and it does seem to be Z2103, and the archaeological setting seems pretty airtight.

    Also, the analysis of the other two bodies in the grave matches that one autosomally. I mean, if he's an intrusive Bronze Age sample and he's Z2103, everyone would expect to see "steppe" in him, yes? The fact is he's just Iranian and Anatolian farmer, no steppe at all, and very similar to the two J2b samples with whom he's buried.

    Of course, if there is a problem, everything would have to be re-thought.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Two immediate stand-outs:
    No BMAC in Indians

    R1b M269 6000 BC in Iran, along side J2b
    I2327 K1a17a R1b1a1a2a2 Hajji_Firuz_C 5900-5500 BCE Iran

    Maciamo was right, not that the usual suspects will acknowledge it.
    Are you Maciamo's mom? ;)

    Angela, Maciamo provides HG links for R1b in the steppe coming from Iran, but many more millenia ago: he suffers the same kind of steppitis as others, including blurred vision about steppe males getting by rape or import Caucasian brunettes to explain their CHG component. I remember when he said that Villabruna R1b was a steppe wanderer in Italy, now I'm waiting his opinion about other HG R1b wanderers in Germany, Lithuania, Romania... the same was true for R1b south of Caucasus, when I suggested that Yamna R1b-Z2103 was coming from the Caucasus as it was found a R1b guy in Kura-Araxes the answer was... that this guy came from... the steppe!

    Game over for R1b from steppe! And now the new R1b guy from Iran, his date is allowing to his M269 bro a chance to participate with the EEF expansion from Anatolia...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  8. #33
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Are you Maciamo's mom? ;)
    Angela, Maciamo provides HG links for R1b in the steppe coming from Iran, but many more millenia ago: he suffers the same kind of steppitis as others, including blurred vision about steppe males getting by rape or import Caucasian brunettes to explain their CHG component. I remember when he said that Villabruna R1b was a steppe wanderer in Italy, now I'm waiting his opinion about other HG R1b wanderers in Germany, Lithuania, Romania... the same was true for R1b south of Caucasus, when I suggested that Yamna R1b-Z2103 was coming from the Caucasus as it was found a R1b guy in Kura-Araxes the answer was... that this guy came from... the steppe!
    Game over for R1b from steppe! And now the new R1b guy from Iran, his date is allowing to his M269 bro a chance to participate with the EEF expansion from Anatolia...
    Did you even read my work? In my history of R1b I postulated many years ago that R1b-M269 probably crossed over the Caucasus into the Pontic Steppe shortly before 5200 BCE because the first clearly Proto-Indo-European cultures were the Khvalynsk (5200-4500 BCE).

    This migration map from 2009 shows R1b moving from the South Caucasus into the Steppe between 6000 and 5000 BCE. I wasn't sure where exactly was the source of R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus, so I added a ? next to Hassuna. No DNA from Hassuna has been tested yet, so it could still be related to Shulaveni-Shomu.



    On the very first R1b migration map that I made in 2009 (see this link as I can't copy/paste Flash maps here) I wrote that R1b crossed the Caucasus c. 7000 ybp (5000 BCE), although my arrow shows that it crossed on the western side of the Caucasus toward Maykop, but then I changed my mind a few months later for the above map as I thought it would be more likely that R1b have crossed to the east along the Caspian (just a little detail, it doesn't change the course of history).

    I also wrote that J2b2-L283 crossed the Caucasus at the same period and also become a PIE lineage. This was a simple deduction based on the fact that this haplogroup is about 6000 years old (according to Y-Full, but might be 7500 years old I think) and that it is found throughout Europe and South Asia, as well as in the South Caucasus from Eastern Anatolia to NW Iran (exactly the region where Neolithic R1b-M269 would have been found).
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  9. #34
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From Anthrogenica

    Hajji Firuz (I2327) R1b calls:

    R1b-1 derived call
    R1b1-2 derived calls
    R1b1a-4 derived calls
    R1b1c-2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a2-1 derived call
    R1b1a1a(R1b-P297)- 5 derived calls
    R1b1a2b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2 (R1b-M269)-9 derived calls
    R1b1a1a2a1-1 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a2 (R1b-Z2103) -3 derived calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a-3 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1d-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1e-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c3-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1g2-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a5-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a2c1a1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b3a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1j-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2a1d-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b2a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g3c 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b4 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b1b3 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1a2 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3b 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b4a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b3a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b2a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a1 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1e 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b1a2a1b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1e3a1 1 ancestrall call

  10. #35
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    I agree that there might be mistakes in assigning y dna. Mal'ta can't be that deep in the R1b tree.

    The fundemental association between EHG or ANE in general to haplogroup R subclades seems valid to me. CHG has 20% EHG. Iran_N shares more alleles with EHG than WHG. This type of ancestry has a deep history in Iran and Caucasus. So it is possible for R subclades to exist without obvious EHG ancestry in this part of the world.

  11. #36
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It's a great paper, very extensive. Most of the results are what I expected.

    - BMAC was a mixture of J2a (main haplogroup), G2a, L1a, Q1b and R2a, just as I had predicted.

    - R1b went south from the Caspian Steppe across Central Asia and settled in Turan/BMAC. Nowadays R1b is far higher than Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and northern Afghanistan (Hazaras).

    - R1a-Z93 went south from southern Siberia along the Tianshan to reach Pakistan and India. Once again that is expected as the R1a-Z93 concentration today are much higher along the Tianshan (Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, eastern Afghanistan). What I don't understand is why this paper insists on separating the admixture of those R1a-Z93 people and calling them 'West Siberian HG related' when they in fact originated in the northern forest-steppe of Europe (around Belarus and northern Ukraine).


    Here are a few things no one could expect:

    - E1b1a1a1c2b1 (aka Z6005) in Mesolithic Iran (12,000 to 8,000 BCE), a Sub-Saharan African clade now found mostly in the far western end of Africa (Gambia, Sierra Leone). Hunter-gatherers did travel a long way... Y-Full says that its parent clade CTS6649 formed 9600 ybp and has a TMRCA of only 6700 ybp, so that is a gross underestimation as it had time to travel over 7000 km and be in Iran about 12,000 years ago.

    - E1b1a1a1c2c3c, another SSA lineage, and plenty of Y-DNA A, BT and CT in the BMAC during the Bronze Age. The A, BT and CT could be early Homo sapiens lineages that died out, but why again West African Y-DNA in Central Asia?

    - Surprisingly lots of (Levantine?) E1b1b1b2 with also some A0, CT, DE and E in Early Iron Age northern Pakistan. Was there a massive Natufian migration to the region in the Early Neolithic? Or is that more Paleolithic or Mesolithic African hunter-gatherers?

    - I2a2a2a in Neolithic Turkmenistan (5000-2000 BCE). Is that an offshoot of a Neolithic culture of Old Europe, a Mesolithic European tribe that ended up in Central Asia, or an early Steppe invader?

    - As mentioned before, Mal'ta can't be R1b1a1a2 and it's extremely suspicious to find a Nordic Bronze Age clade of R1b-U106 (S21728, downstream of Z9) in Iron Age Pakistan. Either it's a typo or that sample was contaminated.

  12. #37
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    E1b1a ... amazing.

    The fun thing is that no sub Saharan ancestry in Iran Neolithic has been detected. Using formal stats. The same with the Natufians who are E1b1b.

    Maybe Basal Eurasian is somehow connected to Africa ?

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Did you even read my work? In my history of R1b I postulated many years ago that R1b-M269 probably crossed over the Caucasus into the Pontic Steppe shortly before 5200 BCE because the first clearly Proto-Indo-European cultures were the Khvalynsk (5200-4500 BCE).
    This migration map from 2009 shows R1b moving from the South Caucasus into the Steppe between 6000 and 5000 BCE. I wasn't sure where exactly was the source of R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus, so I added a ? next to Hassuna. No DNA from Hassuna has been tested yet, so it could still be related to Shulaveni-Shomu.

    On the very first R1b migration map that I made in 2009 (see this link as I can't copy/paste Flash maps here) I wrote that R1b crossed the Caucasus c. 7000 ybp (5000 BCE), although my arrow shows that it crossed on the western side of the Caucasus toward Maykop, but then I changed my mind a few months later for the above map as I thought it would be more likely that R1b have crossed to the east along the Caspian (just a little detail, it doesn't change the course of history).
    I also wrote that J2b2-L283 crossed the Caucasus at the same period and also become a PIE lineage. This was a simple deduction based on the fact that this haplogroup is about 6000 years old (according to Y-Full, but might be 7500 years old I think) and that it is found throughout Europe and South Asia, as well as in the South Caucasus from Eastern Anatolia to NW Iran (exactly the region where Neolithic R1b-M269 would have been found).
    Then you were right the first time. They did cross via eastern black sea coast...to kuban river and up to samarra river.
    Something dislodged the Shulaveri and that something came from south /south eastern.
    They flee to west and northwest.
    Btw, That Kum6 girl was clearly a shulaveri fleeing by 4700bc as I have been saying. So Pie went to north caucasus also to marmara sea region. At least.
    Note: I always amed Hussuna as the culprits of attacking the Shulaveri but nowadays not so sure.
    Also I think halaf might turn out R1b...
    But, as in my "story", after 5000 bc all was defined by the Ubaid , Dalma and Uruk. The farmers , highly pastoral R1b were pretty much gone.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    103
    Points
    1,373
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,373, Level: 10
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: USA - Connecticut



    Thank you for sharing the full contents of a subject that helped me to better understand. At times each thread seems more important than any other. Yet the locating a spark makes the choices less difficult. Opening the door to discovery add a focus for supporting a point of entry.

    Population genetic characterization of ancient individuals
    Population Modeling Strategy

    In this section, we describe our overall strategy to model the admixture history in our set of3251 newly reported samples described in Supplementary materials section 1, which takes 33252 ordered steps in increasing order of complexity, each drawing on an understanding developed3253 by the previous step.32543255 First line of analysis – PCA and ADMIXTURE3256 We examine qualitative differences in ancestry in the newly reported samples by observing3257 the position of the samples on the West Eurasian and All Eurasian PCA plot (Methods) and3258 the magnitude and number of major components for each sample on the ADMIXTURE plot3259 (Methods). We have chosen the orientation of the West Eurasian and All Eurasian PCA plots3260 to correlate with geography (the genetic patterns mirror geography to an extent), providing an3261 intuitive map of the population structure and to some extent the history

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    69
    Points
    1,103
    Level
    8
    Points: 1,103, Level: 8
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Italy



    I used to give R1a the benefit of the doubt, but no R1a in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Iran is a very strong indication that R1a is not even Indoeuropean.
    R1a-Z93 only gained some relevance in IE Asia thousands of years after the spread of Indo-Iranian, Baltoslav(e)s must have picked up the IE language from their Scythian masters. R1b-M269 and J2 are the major IE markers.

  16. #41
    Baron Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    333
    Points
    7,322
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,322, Level: 25
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 228
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    R1b-dates of 15 various samples.


    1) Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
    2)I5235, I5237, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE-Iron Gates

    3)I1734, Mesolithic, 9000-7000 BCE-Ukraine

    4)SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I5411Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC-Iron Gates

    5)OC1_Meso, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE-Iron Gates

    6) I4916 Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE-Iron Gates

    7) I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE-Iron Gates
    8)I5232, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 6224-5841 calBCE-Iron Gates

    9)Hajji Fieuz(Iran) 5900-5500 BCE-Azerbijian
    10)HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC -Latvia
    11)I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE-Russia
    12)HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC-Latvia
    13)ATP3, El Portalón (Spain), 5466-5312 calBP I0371-Spain
    14)I0122, Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara (Russia), 5200-4000 BCE-Russia
    15)I1593, Blatterhole Cave (Germany), 3958-3344 calBCE I1594,-Germany

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    180
    Points
    4,151
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,151, Level: 18
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's a great paper, very extensive. Most of the results are what I expected.

    - BMAC was a mixture of J2a (main haplogroup), G2a, L1a, Q1b and R2a, just as I had predicted.

    - R1b went south from the Caspian Steppe across Central Asia and settled in Turan/BMAC. Nowadays R1b is far higher than Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and northern Afghanistan (Hazaras).

    - R1a-Z93 went south from southern Siberia along the Tianshan to reach Pakistan and India. Once again that is expected as the R1a-Z93 concentration today are much higher along the Tianshan (Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, eastern Afghanistan). What I don't understand is why this paper insists on separating the admixture of those R1a-Z93 people and calling them 'West Siberian HG related' when they in fact originated in the northern forest-steppe of Europe (around Belarus and northern Ukraine).


    Here are a few things no one could expect:

    - E1b1a1a1c2b1 (aka Z6005) in Mesolithic Iran (12,000 to 8,000 BCE), a Sub-Saharan African clade now found mostly in the far western end of Africa (Gambia, Sierra Leone). Hunter-gatherers did travel a long way... Y-Full says that its parent clade CTS6649 formed 9600 ybp and has a TMRCA of only 6700 ybp, so that is a gross underestimation as it had time to travel over 7000 km and be in Iran about 12,000 years ago.

    - E1b1a1a1c2c3c, another SSA lineage, and plenty of Y-DNA A, BT and CT in the BMAC during the Bronze Age. The A, BT and CT could be early Homo sapiens lineages that died out, but why again West African Y-DNA in Central Asia?

    - Surprisingly lots of (Levantine?) E1b1b1b2 with also some A0, CT, DE and E in Early Iron Age northern Pakistan. Was there a massive Natufian migration to the region in the Early Neolithic? Or is that more Paleolithic or Mesolithic African hunter-gatherers?

    - I2a2a2a in Neolithic Turkmenistan (5000-2000 BCE). Is that an offshoot of a Neolithic culture of Old Europe, a Mesolithic European tribe that ended up in Central Asia, or an early Steppe invader?

    - As mentioned before, Mal'ta can't be R1b1a1a2 and it's extremely suspicious to find a Nordic Bronze Age clade of R1b-U106 (S21728, downstream of Z9) in Iron Age Pakistan. Either it's a typo or that sample was contaminated.

    please people wait for the finale version this a pre-print
    one the mesolitic e1b1a is wierd as hell must be a mistake
    while e1b1b1 in bmac people and iron age pakistan could be logical given the time frame of those samples .....
    chad rolfson from anthrogenica ask one of the authours of this paper to check the dna haplogroups table again ......

  18. #43
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    406
    Points
    5,485
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,485, Level: 21
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Canada



    The followings should be reviewed later as rebuttal against Harvard genetics, b/c genetics is still on early stage not an universal medication at all.


    1. As mentioned, karzakstan eneolithic genes are very important to explain the relationship between yamna and afanasievo. Moreover botai, sintashta and andronovo culture is said to belong to east Ural culture, surtanda culture.

    2. Could gracile yamna skull produce the bellbeaker skull, which is very close to cromagnon? I really don’t think so.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ily-tree/page2 (post 13)

    3. Could yamana and CWC culture be related with sintasha? The CWC has nothing to do with horse, CWC’s skull cannot produce paleotype sintshta skull.
    Their burial type(B) is supine burial type, and their horse is genetically proved to be arctic horse like east scythian.


    4. As I mentioned several times, I don’t think the 1st gracile yamna and sintashta type cannot produce source population of andronovo ferodova, 2nd pamir type to be connected to Aryan.



    Think about the fact that PHD scholar should say like this at 2013, "not proving but plausible". why did he say that, not connecting to existing samples by statics like the other scholars?
    That is why it is very important to have y dna of eneolithic karzak people, who have a brachy large skull of UP to produce any type of people, being easily changed to proto-caucasoid and proto-mongoloid by just a one drop, b/c they are intermediate, I think.

    The origin of the Andronovo variant of the Proto-European trait combination appears to be the least disputable. Its wide distribution was evidently associated with the spread of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) culture from a single area. Because admixture seldom if ever results in the decrease of the facial height (Bunak, 1980), very low faces of the Andronovo people support the idea that this population originated in a single region, and that isolation was the major factor in its origin (Alekseyev, 1961). While the idea that the ancestors of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) people lived in Kazakhstan before the Middle Bronze Age (Ibid.) appears plausible, it cannot be supported by available data at present.
    Culturally, they were associated with Afanesyev, Timbergrave (Srubnaya), and Tazabagyab cultures, with the Andronovo (Alakul) culture of western Kazakhstan, and with the Sintashta-like culture of Potapovka. Morphologically, this cluster is intermediate between the “Andronovo proper” (Proto-European) cluster and the “Mediterranean” cluster. Accordingly, the “intermediate” cluster includes both Proto-European and Mediterranean series.
    THE ORIGINS OF THE ANDRONOVO (FEDOROVKA) POPULATION OF SOUTHWESTERN SIBERIA, BASED ON A MIDDLE BRONZE AGE CRANIAL SERIES FROM THE ALTAI FOREST-STEPPE ZONE

  19. #44
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    The followings should be reviewed later as rebuttal against Harvard genetics, b/c genetics is still on early stage not an universal medication at all.


    1. As mentioned, karzakstan eneolithic genes are very important to explain the relationship between yamna and afanasievo. Moreover botai, sintashta and andronovo culture is said to belong to east Ural culture, surtanda culture.

    2. Could gracile yamna skull produce the bellbeaker skull, which is very close to cromagnon? I really don’t think so.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ily-tree/page2 (post 13)

    3. Could yamana and CWC culture be related with sintasha? The CWC has nothing to do with horse, CWC’s skull cannot produce paleotype sintshta skull.
    Their burial type(B) is supine burial type, and their horse is genetically proved to be arctic horse like east scythian.

    4. As I mentioned several times, I don’t think the 1st gracile yamna and sintashta type cannot produce source population of andronovo ferodova, 2nd pamir type to be connected to Aryan.



    Think about the fact that PHD scholar should say like this at 2013, "not proving but plausible". why did he say that, not connecting to existing samples by statics like the other scholars?
    That is why it is very important to have y dna of eneolithic karzak people, who have a brachy large skull of UP to produce any type of people, being easily changed to proto-caucasoid and proto-mongoloid by just a one drop, b/c they are intermediate, I think.

    I wouldn't rely too much on cranial shapes as these can change quickly when two populations merge with each other, and a lot of diversity is generally found within a single population. For example Yamna skulls could be brachycephalic, mesocephalic and dolichocephalic. Bell Beakers weren't even a single ethnic group.

  20. #45
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,759
    Points
    243,081
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,081, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    I used to give R1a the benefit of the doubt, but no R1a in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Iran is a very strong indication that R1a is not even Indoeuropean.
    R1a-Z93 only gained some relevance in IE Asia thousands of years after the spread of Indo-Iranian, Baltoslav(e)s must have picked up the IE language from their Scythian masters. R1b-M269 and J2 are the major IE markers.
    You don't get to t-roll Slavs or any other nationalities here. You already got an infraction. Keep this stuff up and you'll be out of here very soon.

    @Johen,
    You want to take issue with a genetics paper? Argue the genetics. Stop with this kind of nonsense.

  21. #46
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    R1b-dates of 15 various samples.


    1) Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
    2)I5235, I5237, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE-Iron Gates

    3)I1734, Mesolithic, 9000-7000 BCE-Ukraine

    4)SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I5411Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC-Iron Gates

    5)OC1_Meso, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE-Iron Gates

    6) I4916 Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE-Iron Gates

    7) I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE-Iron Gates
    8)I5232, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 6224-5841 calBCE-Iron Gates

    9)Hajji Fieuz(Iran) 5900-5500 BCE-Azerbijian
    10)HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC -Latvia
    11)I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE-Russia
    12)HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC-Latvia
    13)ATP3, El Portalón (Spain), 5466-5312 calBP I0371-Spain
    14)I0122, Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara (Russia), 5200-4000 BCE-Russia
    15)I1593, Blatterhole Cave (Germany), 3958-3344 calBCE I1594,-Germany
    I can be quite misleading for newcomers to see such a list as it doesn't include subclades. It's hard to see how these related to one another with clades and without a phylogenetic tree like this one to see where the samples fit.


  22. #47
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    I used to give R1a the benefit of the doubt, but no R1a in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Iran is a very strong indication that R1a is not even Indoeuropean.
    R1a-Z93 only gained some relevance in IE Asia thousands of years after the spread of Indo-Iranian, Baltoslav(e)s must have picked up the IE language from their Scythian masters. R1b-M269 and J2 are the major IE markers.

    This is exactly why I am reluctant to define Proto-Indo-European solely as the group of R1b-M269 and J2b2a people who lived in the Central and South Caucasus between, say, 5800 and 5200 BCE.

    Some people think that it's better than the Pontic-Caspian Steppe as a PIE homeland because it could be made to include the archaic Anatolian branch. But we don't know anything about the genetics of the Anatolian branch, and in any case the Hittites, Luwians and Lydians don't show up until about 1650 BCE, with horses, chariots and what is in fact more of a Middle Bronze Age Steppe cultural package. I think that the archaic traits of that branch can be explained either by some sort of isolation from other PIE groups within the Steppe (e.g. early migration to the Balkans from 4200 BCE or to Turan from 3500 to 4000 BCE) or by a hydrisation of their language with non-IE languages.

    It's nonsense to reject the whole R1a branch as Indo-European, as they correlates extremely well with Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Aryan and Iranian branches of IE languages.

    That is why I keep firm on my grounds and insist on defining PIE as the language that emerged in either during the Yamna or Khvalynsk culture, by the merger of Caucasian R1b-M269 and J2b2-L283 with the indigenous I2a2a-L701, R1a and old clades of R1b (L297, L388, etc.).

  23. #48
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    From Anhrogenica Chad Rohlfsen:

    There is also going to be a C14 done on the Hajji Firuz R1b. Results should be back in the next couple of weeks.

  24. #49
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Here are a few things no one could expect:

    - E1b1a1a1c2b1 (aka Z6005) in Mesolithic Iran (12,000 to 8,000 BCE), a Sub-Saharan African clade now found mostly in the far western end of Africa (Gambia, Sierra Leone). Hunter-gatherers did travel a long way... Y-Full says that its parent clade CTS6649 formed 9600 ybp and has a TMRCA of only 6700 ybp, so that is a gross underestimation as it had time to travel over 7000 km and be in Iran about 12,000 years ago.

    - E1b1a1a1c2c3c, another SSA lineage, and plenty of Y-DNA A, BT and CT in the BMAC during the Bronze Age. The A, BT and CT could be early Homo sapiens lineages that died out, but why again West African Y-DNA in Central Asia?

    - Surprisingly lots of (Levantine?) E1b1b1b2 with also some A0, CT, DE and E in Early Iron Age northern Pakistan. Was there a massive Natufian migration to the region in the Early Neolithic? Or is that more Paleolithic or Mesolithic African hunter-gatherers?

    - I2a2a2a in Neolithic Turkmenistan (5000-2000 BCE). Is that an offshoot of a Neolithic culture of Old Europe, a Mesolithic European tribe that ended up in Central Asia, or an early Steppe invader?

    - As mentioned before, Mal'ta can't be R1b1a1a2 and it's extremely suspicious to find a Nordic Bronze Age clade of R1b-U106 (S21728, downstream of Z9) in Iron Age Pakistan. Either it's a typo or that sample was contaminated.
    surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    From Anhrogenica Chad Rohlfsen:

    There is also going to be a C14 done on the Hajji Firuz R1b. Results should be back in the next couple of weeks.
    Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
    ... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.

Page 2 of 26 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •