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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I can be quite misleading for newcomers to see such a list as it doesn't include subclades. It's hard to see how these related to one another with clades and without a phylogenetic tree like this one to see where the samples fit.

    Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?
    True. But the one on everyone's mind really is a R1b Z2103 by his calls already been checked. So...get use to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.
    That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
    ... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.
    Add to that that he is autosomally similar to the others in the same context, I believe he is legitimate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.
    In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
    So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
    Yes the forum is called Eupedia right? The 14/15 oldest R1b samples are from Europe. At one time people thought R1b-V88 came from Africa, and R1b-L51 originated from Egypt to Morroco[no joke]. I'm just pointing out factual data. We actually have no data from the huge amount of Kurgans{not one tested from the Yamnaya-region in Hungary-estimates depending on some 40,000+)and or Italy which also has some very interesting R1b branches including the oldest sample to date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    True. But the one on everyone's mind really is a R1b Z2103 by his calls already been checked. So...get use to it.
    I wasn't mentioning this one, there are others which are doubtfull, most the R1b-M269 in Mal'ta but also the E1b1a..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
    ... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.
    was the same done with the other samples? malta boy?
    we also have no contemporary male samples from the steppe it seems and also nothing from georgia or aserbaidschan. so i don't see how one sample from north western iran can lead to the conclusion that ie spread from iran.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?
    From what I understand, the lead author used some automated system which they plan to publish in the final paper. Obviously, there are bugs in it.

    If I had to guess, and that's all it is, some of these samples are probably degraded or there was a one-off private mutation, and so something like one call on a mutation by an automated program should be ignored. That may explain the weird result for Mal'ta and the E1b1a results.


    As for the Z2103 in Neolithic Iran, that doesn't seem to be the case. It looks legit. The only way to discount it would be the dating of it. Given how important it is, radio carbon dating is probably a good idea. However, it would be very odd if a sample buried with two J2b in an undisturbed grave, and matching the two J2b in being only a mix farmers was somehow a steppe person from thousands of years later.

    That's sort of where I am with that sample. Time will tell, though.

    I think we also have to consider those 3000 additional ancient samples in the Reich Lab but not yet published. I don't think it's unreasonable to propose that some may be from Maykop, or other areas in now Georgia/Armenia/ or Iran.

    I highly doubt he would base a hypothesis on one sample.

    What I find more intriguing, as I said above, is the lack of R1a. Are they saving that for another paper, when they will also reveal the yDna of the "Siberian Hunter-Gatherers" and perhaps draw the line to specific groups within the Andronovo horizon, now we know there was structure there?

    Or, is some of this ambiguity due to the apparent breakdown in cooperation with the Indian scientists, perhaps leading to them being unable to use certain samples, and thus trying to come to the right conclusion without the best samples?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes the forum is called Eupedia right? The 14/15 oldest R1b samples are from Europe. At one time people thought R1b-V88 came from Africa, and R1b-L51 originated from Egypt to Morroco[no joke]. I'm just pointing out factual data. We actually have no data from the huge amount of Kurgans{not one tested from the Yamnaya-region in Hungary-estimates depending on some 40,000+)and or Italy which also has some very interesting R1b branches including the oldest sample to date.
    Well, if you started with these beliefs, then I understand how you can find it interesting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
    So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...
    You don't seem to understand that none of those Mesolithic R1b is ancestral to modern European R1b. The oldest R1b-M269 ever found to date is that one from Hajji Firuz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I wasn't mentioning this one, there are others which are doubtfull, most the R1b-M269 in Mal'ta but also the E1b1a..
    AFAIK only this one made people rush to prove/disprove it. Its also telling ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You don't seem to understand that none of those Mesolithic R1b is ancestral to modern European R1b. The oldest R1b-M269 ever found to date is that one from Hajji Firuz.
    Maciamo. Thats not for me right? I am telling the same as you.

    ... And by 5500bc would clearly expect a L23....but Z2103 not really.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What I find more intriguing, as I said above, is the lack of R1a. Are they saving that for another paper, when they will also reveal the yDna of the "Siberian Hunter-Gatherers" and perhaps draw the line to specific groups within the Andronovo horizon, now we know there was structure there?
    R1a-M417 is much younger (TMRCA of 5500 years, at the start of Yamna) than R1b-M269 or even R1b-L23. Considering that all Indo-European R1a descends from a single R1a-M417 who lived at the beginning of the Yamna period, I don't see how R1a-M417 could be found alongside R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus. It was clearly an indigenous R1a lineage that got lucky, probably becoming a prolific chieftain or king in the forest-steppe zone that gave rise to Corded Ware. Yamna individuals tested were mostly from elite graves, but there is little doubt in my mind that the 'common people' were the same as in Sredny Stog (old clades of R1a and R1b + I2a2a-L701). It's thanks to elitism, patriarchy and polygamy that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 managed to expand so very fast at the expense of now nearly extinct side lineages of R1a and R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Maciamo. Thats not for me right? I am telling the same as you.
    All right. Then I misunderstood you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1a-M417 is much younger (TMRCA of 5500 years, at the start of Yamna) than R1b-M269 or even R1b-L23. Considering that all Indo-European R1a descends from a single R1a-M417 who lived at the beginning of the Yamna period, I don't see how R1a-M417 could be found alongside R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus. It was clearly an indigenous R1a lineage that got lucky, probably becoming a prolific chieftain or king in the forest-steppe zone that gave rise to Corded Ware. Yamna individuals tested were mostly from elite graves, but there is little doubt in my mind that the 'common people' were the same as in Sredny Stog (old clades of R1a and R1b + I2a2a-L701). It's thanks to elitism, patriarchy and polygamy that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 managed to expand so very fast at the expense of now nearly extinct side lineages of R1a and R1b.
    Yes, I understand that, Maciamo. I meant the lack of R1a in the South Asian samples. Out of all those samples, there's only one, and it's very late. Yet the "steppe" ancestry is there, if not as high as an average as many predicted.

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    Razib Khan's take on the paper. Good summary, I think.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I understand that, Maciamo. I meant the lack of R1a in the South Asian samples. Out of all those samples, there's only one, and it's very late. Yet the "steppe" ancestry is there, if not as high as an average as many predicted.
    Sorry, I didn't know you meant in South Asia as we were discussing the R1b from the South Caucasus. R1a did enter quite late in South Asia (from 1800-1500 BCE), but the reason it is so rare in these samples is probably because the Indo-Aryan established a very segregated society and the samples aren't from Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Actually there is not much diversity in the South Asian samples. All are from the Swat Valley of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in northern Pakistan and all from the Iron Age. One mountain valley could easily have been bypassed by the Indo-Aryan invaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
    So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...
    Olympus Mons alot of R1b guys break it all.
    The Basal R1b project has these samples as M269-no mutations thereafter, again all within Europe. You will have to correspond with admin of that project of your findings with regards to adding or deleting the M269 samples.





    https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Olympus Mons alot of R1b guys break it all.
    The Basal R1b project has these samples as M269-no mutations thereafter, again all within Europe. You will have to correspond with admin of that project of your findings with regards to adding or deleting the M269 samples.





    https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf
    Kumbarov already got me into troubles with a M269 that genetiker showed me was H2. So I stay clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Kumbarov already got me into troubles with a M269 that genetiker showed me was H2. So I stay clear.
    Everyone makes mistakes. Have you seen the list that have put their names to this paper. Was it peer reviewed?


    Vagheesh M Narasimhan, Nick J Patterson, Priya Moorjani, Iosif Lazaridis, Lipson Mark, Swapan Mallick, Nadin Rohland, Rebecca Bernardos, Alexander M Kim, Nathan Nakatsuka, Inigo Olalde, Alfredo Coppa, James Mallory, Vyacheslav Moiseyev, Janet Monge, Luca M Olivieri, Nicole Adamski, Nasreen Broomandkhoshbacht, Francesca Candilio, Olivia Cheronet, Brendan J Culleton, Matthew Ferry, Daniel Fernandes, Beatriz Gamarra, Daniel Gaudio, Mateja Hajdinjak, Eadaoin Harney, Thomas K Harper, Denise Keating, Ann-Marie Lawson, Megan Michel, Mario Novak, Jonas Oppenheimer, Niraj Rai, Kendra Sirak, Viviane Slon, Kristin Stewardson, Zhao Zhang, Gaziz Akhatov, Anatoly N Bagashev, Baurzhan Baitanayev, Gian Luca Bonora, Tatiana Chikisheva, Anatoly Derevianko, Enshin Dmitry, Katerina Douka, Nadezhda Dubova, Andrey Epimakhov, Suzanne Freilich, Dorian Fuller, Alexander Goryachev, Andrey Gromov, Bryan Hanks, Margaret Judd, Erlan Kazizov, Aleksander Khokhlov, Egor Kitov, Elena Kupriyanova, Pavel Kuznetsov, Donata Luiselli, Farhad Maksudov, Chris Meiklejohn, Deborah C Merrett, Roberto Micheli, Oleg Mochalov, Zahir Muhammed, Samridin Mustafakulov, Ayushi Nayak, Rykun M Petrovna, Davide Pettner, Richard Potts, Dmitry Razhev, Stefania Sarno, Kulyan Sikhymbaevae, Sergey M Slepchenko, Nadezhda Stepanova, Svetlana Svyatko, Sergey Vasilyev, Massimo Vidale, Dima Voyakin, Antonina Yermolayeva, Alisa Zubova, Vasant S Shinde, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Matthias Meyer, David Anthony, Nicole Boivin, Kumarasmy Thangaraj, Douglas Kennett, Michael Frachetti, Ron Pinhasi, David Reich
    I'm very great full that educated people are using their time and resources to figure out who we are and how we fit into the genetic story of our ancestors. However, have you seen what MA1, is something like R1b? Have you or Genetiker ever made any mistakes, anything that you overlooked? The point is sometimes mistakes happen. We can only try our best, and not judge others for the same mistakes the we ourselves could make, and keep and open mind to the data. In my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Everyone makes mistakes. Have you seen the list that have put their names to this paper. Was it peer reviewed?
    I'm very great full that educated people are using their time and resources to figure out who we are and how we fit into the genetic story of our ancestors. However, have you seen what MA1, is something like R1b? Have you or Genetiker ever made any mistakes, anything that you overlooked? The point is sometimes mistakes happen. We can only try our best, and not judge others for the same mistakes the we ourselves could make, and keep and open mind to the data. In my opinion.
    ... Just saying not all R1b are the same.
    For the story that have been pushed into the throat of people like me for the past 5 years to be true, there could never be found where it was a M269. Let alone a L23... But a z2103 from 5500b? -Hell this a revolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    ... Just saying not all R1b are the same.
    For the story that have been pushed into the throat of people like me for the past 5 years to be true, there could never be found where it was a M269. Let alone a L23... But a z2103 from 5500b? -Hell this a revolution.
    Okay Olympus. I don't know your ydna group, but we can use my group-----to explain, since by your theory I should be related to your subject.
    Lets start at L23-what date do you give that mutation? yfull gives the mutation 6400YBP --do you agree or disagree?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Okay Olympus. I don't know your ydna group, but we can use my group-----to explain, since by your theory I should be related to your subject.
    Lets start at L23-what date do you give that mutation? yfull gives the mutation 6400YBP --do you agree or disagree?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/
    According to my theory that date of 6400 ybp would be impossible. L23 had to be born as a Shulaveri still (so latest 7500 ybp) in time to allow z2103 to be born close to shulaveri disappearance 7000 ybp. Because by 6900ybp they were fleeing into kuban river up to steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    According to my theory that date of 6400 ybp would be impossible. L23 had to be born as a Shulaveri still (so latest 7500 ybp) in time to allow z2103 to be born close to shulaveri disappearance 7000 ybp. Because by 6900ybp they were fleeing into kuban river up to steppe.
    Okay then perhaps yfull dates are incorrect?
    Here are some more, try and put a time on them-

    R-Z2103


    R-Z2106
    -Z2108

    R-L51

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/

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