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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
    Correct, just by looking at the sample size in this paper. Steppe samples alone are twice as many as samples from Iranian Plateau and South_Central Asia.

    Every region outside the Steppes and Europe is very undersampled.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    while R1b-P297 was observed in the Baltic area, and now also western Azerbaijan
    Agree, but the thing is, we had found signs of Iran_Neo/CHG admixture in these Baltic samples but no EHG admixture in NW Iran. This Hajji Firuz m269 sample might be the reason why the authors pointed that out to begin with.

    NW Iran is pretty much in the sphere of Leyla Tepe influence. I always pointed out that the oldest Kurgans are found there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Did you even read my work? In my history of R1b I postulated many years ago that R1b-M269 probably crossed over the Caucasus into the Pontic Steppe shortly before 5200 BCE because the first clearly Proto-Indo-European cultures were the Khvalynsk (5200-4500 BCE).

    This migration map from 2009 shows R1b moving from the South Caucasus into the Steppe between 6000 and 5000 BCE. I wasn't sure where exactly was the source of R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus, so I added a ? next to Hassuna. No DNA from Hassuna has been tested yet, so it could still be related to Shulaveni-Shomu.



    On the very first R1b migration map that I made in 2009 (see this link as I can't copy/paste Flash maps here) I wrote that R1b crossed the Caucasus c. 7000 ybp (5000 BCE), although my arrow shows that it crossed on the western side of the Caucasus toward Maykop, but then I changed my mind a few months later for the above map as I thought it would be more likely that R1b have crossed to the east along the Caspian (just a little detail, it doesn't change the course of history).

    I also wrote that J2b2-L283 crossed the Caucasus at the same period and also become a PIE lineage. This was a simple deduction based on the fact that this haplogroup is about 6000 years old (according to Y-Full, but might be 7500 years old I think) and that it is found throughout Europe and South Asia, as well as in the South Caucasus from Eastern Anatolia to NW Iran (exactly the region where Neolithic R1b-M269 would have been found).
    back from holidays I can check things, simply what you say here is just the contrary that I read here from 2014

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ghlight=araxes

    On a side note, it is highly frustrating that this team of geneticists tested 63 samples from the Yamna and Catacomb and related cultures and did not test any Y-DNA at all ! This could prove once and for all that R1b people spread from the Pontic Steppe and not with Neolithic Near Eastern farmers as so many academic papers have claimed.
    I will try to find the discussion had with this issue
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    So does someone have an opinion on Darra.I.Kur_d from northern Afghanistan? The coverage is bad, but I've compared it with the samples in Olalde (2017) and it looks like if the assignment is correct this would be the oldest occurence of typically Western European R1b (L151). That can't be right, no?

    The mtdna is H2a, which looks like it is associated with the Bronze Age in Europe.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    So does someone have an opinion on Darra.I.Kur_d from northern Afghanistan? The coverage is bad, but I've compared it with the samples in Olalde (2017) and it looks like if the assignment is correct this would be the oldest occurence of typically Western European R1b (L151). That can't be right, no?
    This is one person's opinion:

    " Originally Posted by Megalophias [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Owner\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.png[/IMG]
    I've gone through some of the suspect haplogroups:

    There are 6 Gonur Tepe and 1 Swat Iron Age samples listed as A. As far as I can tell these are just super low coverage samples with no haplogroup assignment, they do not have any derived calls for A(xBT) clades or ancestral calls for BT or CT.

    - I2312 - Belt Cave Iran Mesolithic - listed as E1b1a1a1c2b1 - very unlikely. It has one derived allele for this, contradicted by 1 ancestral E1b1a1. It is some kind of BT. J, as at Hotu next door, is not excluded.
    - I6119 - Gonur Tepe BMAC - listed as E1b1a1a1c2c3c - definitely not, it has 5 ancestral calls for E. It is CT(xC, E, G, J, R), with single ancestral calls also for D, H1a1, L1, Q1b. Perhaps T?
    - I1992 - Swat Iron Age - listed as E1a-M132 - very unlikely, it has 4 ancestral calls and only 1 derived call for E1a. It is E, with 3 derived calls. E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is the majority at this site, is not excluded.
    - I8998 - Swat Iron Age - listed as R1b-S21782 (under U106) - definitely not, it has dozens of upstream calls contradicting this. It is R(xR1, R2a), probably R2* (found in northern Pakistan today).
    - Darra-i-Kur - Afghanistan EBA - listed as R1b-P311. Low coverage, there is one positive call for the SNP, nothing + or - upstream. This is some kind of BT.
    - I1003 - Sintashta - listed as I2a1a1a - seems not, as it has 1 ancestral IJ call, 3 ancestral and 1 derived for I, 1 derived R. Looks like R(xR1b1a), so probably the usual R1a.
    - I8527 - Geoksyur - listed as I2a2a2a - unlikely, there is 1 positive call, but 1 ancestral call for I2a2. Some kind of F."


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    ycalls
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2fevb2yjb...alls.xlsx?dl=0

    was interested on how

    I1781 T T-M272 T-M184

    is genetically related to

    I6117 A A A

    as per paper ............makes no sense ...unless I6117 is contaminated
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    1. In the map, european cline is EEF and CWC, but indian cline is ANI and ASI.
    So which cline is the steppe people except CWC?

    2. Why did they not use the lake bikal R1a?





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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    We don't have any ancient Y-DNA from the North Caucasus (e.g. Maykop) yet. Anyway I always said that R1b-M269 originated south of the Caucasus and crossed north between 6000 and 5000 BCE (most probably as R1b-L23 and some of its subclades).Who on this forum expected R1b-M269 to have originated in the North Caucasus?
    But you were labeling haplogroups 'European' and 'Middle Eastern' based on their modern frequencies and you were associating R1b or R1 in general with blondness. Do you remember that?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    1. In the map, european cline is EEF and CWC, but indian cline is ANI and ASI.
    So which cline is the steppe people except CWC?

    2. Why did they not use the lake bikal R1a?

    according to the paper, steppe EMBA/yamnaya was a mix of khvalynsk and the 'Iran chl cline'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ycalls
    I1781 T T-M272 T-M184

    is genetically related to

    I6117 A A A

    as per paper ............makesno sense ...unless I6117 is contaminated
    It's not contaminated, there are no A clade calls, it's just extremely low coverage. I'm not sure why the samples with no haplogroup assigned are labelled as A, though technically all modern human DNA is haplogroup A. I6117 probably does have T, well spotted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ... Anyway I always said that R1b-M269 originated south of the Caucasus and crossed north between 6000 and 5000 BCE (most probably as R1b-L23 and some of its subclades).
    Maciamo. Lets settle this once and for all. Point me to where you say that!

    (it felt pretty lonely this last 3 years talking about Shulaveri, 4900 bc, Mesokho, kuban river, samara river etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yet I don't see where the proof is in their analysis for the conclusions they're drawing, at least not iron clad proof.

    This whole set of samples from the Bronze Age only shows steppe MLBA in some analyses, not all. Also, the culture itself doesn't seem very "Indo-European" at all. The amount is much lower than in modern Northwest Indians as well. Maybe it's pseudo-steppe because of this West Siberian HG ancestry mixed with Iran Neo.

    Then there's the R1a problem. Not one. Only one in the Iron Age. Yet look at all of it now.

    Do you know of any other route they could have taken?
    no, I don't know any other route, but this is what the paper says :

    Second, samples from three sites from the southern and eastern end of the Steppe dated to 1600-
    353 1500 BCE (Dashti-kozy, Taldysay and Kyzlbulak) show evidence of significant admixture from
    354 Iranian agriculturalist-related populations, demonstrating northward gene flow from Turan into
    355 the Steppe at the same time as there was southward movement of Steppe_MLBA ancestry
    356 through Turan and into South Asia. These findings are consistent with evidence of a high degree
    357 of human mobility both to the north and south along the Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (32, 33).
    358
    359 Third, we observe samples from multiple sites dated to 1700-1500 BCE (Maitan, Kairan,
    360 Oy_Dzhaylau and Zevakinsikiy) that derive up to ~25% of their ancestry from a source related to
    361 present-day East Asians and the remainder from Steppe_MLBA. A similar ancestry profile
    362 became widespread in the region by the Late Bronze Age, as documented by our time transect
    363 from Zevakinsikiy and samples from many sites dating to 1500-1000 BCE, and was ubiquitous
    364 by the Scytho-Sarmatian period in the Iron Age (34). This observation decreases the probability
    that populations in the 1st millennium BCE and 1 365 st millennium CE—including Scythians,
    peer-reviewed) is the author/funder. It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.
    bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 31, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/292581. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not
    12
    366 Kushans, and Huns, sometimes suggested as sources for the Steppe ancestry influences in South
    367 Asia today (17)—contributed to the majority of South Asians, which have negligible East Asian
    368 ancestry in our analysis. It is possible that there were unsampled groups in Central Asia with
    369 negligible East Asian admixture that could have migrated later to South Asia. However, at least
    370 some (possibly all) of the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in South Asia owes its origins to southward
    pulses in the 2 371 nd millennium BCE, as indeed we prove directly through our observation of this
    372 ancestry in the Swat Iron Age individuals dating to ~1000 BCE (discussed further below).

    so, either there are unsampled R1a steppe MLBA en route toward south Asia
    or there are unsampled R1a Scyths without East Asian admixture that made their way to South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is one person's opinion:

    - I2312 - Belt Cave Iran Mesolithic - listed as E1b1a1a1c2b1 - very unlikely. It has one derived allele for this, contradicted by 1 ancestral E1b1a1. It is some kind of BT. J, as at Hotu next door, is not excluded.
    - I6119 - Gonur Tepe BMAC - listed as E1b1a1a1c2c3c - definitely not, it has 5 ancestral calls for E. It is CT(xC, E, G, J, R), with single ancestral calls also for D, H1a1, L1, Q1b. Perhaps T?
    - I1992 - Swat Iron Age - listed as E1a-M132 - very unlikely, it has 4 ancestral calls and only 1 derived call for E1a. It is E, with 3 derived calls. E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is the majority at this site, is not excluded.
    - I8998 - Swat Iron Age - listed as R1b-S21782 (under U106) - definitely not, it has dozens of upstream calls contradicting this. It is R(xR1, R2a), probably R2* (found in northern Pakistan today).
    - Darra-i-Kur - Afghanistan EBA - listed as R1b-P311. Low coverage, there is one positive call for the SNP, nothing + or - upstream. This is some kind of BT.
    - I1003 - Sintashta - listed as I2a1a1a - seems not, as it has 1 ancestral IJ call, 3 ancestral and 1 derived for I, 1 derived R. Looks like R(xR1b1a), so probably the usual R1a.
    - I8527 - Geoksyur - listed as I2a2a2a - unlikely, there is 1 positive call, but 1 ancestral call for I2a2. Some kind of F."
    Thanks! Perhaps the authors just listed those low coverage samples as belonging to whatever the last positive call was that their software gave them. A bit misleading, but then again those samples can easily be ignored.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    What of the Indo Aryan speaking groups in the Kingdom of Mittani in the Levant ? what migration path did they take ?

    Late Bronze Age Canaanites from Megiddo should be a mixture of Levant EBA + Armenia MLBA (source), the Armenian admixing population should be the Hurrians.

    The Hurrians had connections to Indo-Aryan speakers, Armenia MLBA is different from the preceding Early Bronze Age in having a larger portion of ancestry from the EHG, so my theory is Steppe populations moved to south Caucasus and admixed genetically and culturally with the Hurrian population there, and then migrated to the Levant.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    What of the Indo Aryan speaking groups in the Kingdom of Mittani in the Levant ? what migration path did they take ?
    Late Bronze Age Canaanites from Megiddo should be a mixture of Levant EBA + Armenia MLBA (source), the Armenian admixing population should be the Hurrians.
    The Hurrians had connections to Indo-Aryan speakers, Armenia MLBA is different from the preceding Early Bronze Age in having a larger portion of ancestry from the EHG, so my theory is Steppe populations moved to south Caucasus and admixed genetically and culturally with the Hurrian population there, and then migrated to the Levant.
    afaik the Mittani didn't speak IE, but there is a text about horse training for charriot warfare translated from Mittani into Hittite in which some technical terms are not translated, and these technical terms are Indo Aryan

    this means that charriots and horses were introduced to the Mittani by a few Indo-Aryan people, probably an offshoot of those MLBA steppe people in the BMAC area, who instead of going further south got in contact with the Mittani court
    these few people need not have left a detectable genetic mark in the Levant

    there is no convincing evidence that the Hittites or the Egyptians had charriots before the Mittani got them

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    afaik the Mittani didn't speak IE, but there is a text about horse training for charriot warfare translated from Mittani into Hittite in which some technical terms are not translated, and these technical terms are Indo Aryan
    this means that charriots and horses were introduced to the Mittani by a few Indo-Aryan people, probably an offshoot of those MLBA steppe people in the BMAC area, who instead of going further south got in contact with the Mittani court
    these few people need not have left a detectable genetic mark in the Levant
    there is no convincing evidence that the Hittites or the Egyptians had charriots before the Mittani got them
    Indo Aryans may have been fewer in number than the Hurrians, but not reduced historically to just mercinaries from the east. they had a larger impact on Middle Bronze Age history and on Hurrian culture.

    The rulers of many small polities in the Levant had Sanskrit and Hurrian names.

    Amarna letters–localities and their rulers

    An enjoyable reading on the subject: Hurrians and Their Gods in Canaan

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    ..and Holderlin
    Do you want a bet that Maykop is going to be essently either: farmers from Balkans or southern caucasus later leylatepe with connections to Uruk and nothing to do with PIe or R1b?
    You're saying that Maykop will have nothing to do with PIE, yet you're also saying that PIE originated in the Southern Caucuses and expanded onto the steppe. These two things are likely incompatible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    no, I don't know any other route, but this is what the paper says :

    Second, samples from three sites from the southern and eastern end of the Steppe dated to 1600-
    353 1500 BCE (Dashti-kozy, Taldysay and Kyzlbulak) show evidence of significant admixture from
    354 Iranian agriculturalist-related populations, demonstrating northward gene flow from Turan into
    355 the Steppe at the same time as there was southward movement of Steppe_MLBA ancestry
    356 through Turan and into South Asia. These findings are consistent with evidence of a high degree
    357 of human mobility both to the north and south along the Inner Asian Mountain Corridor
    (32, 33).
    358
    359 Third, we observe samples from multiple sites dated to 1700-1500 BCE (Maitan, Kairan,
    360 Oy_Dzhaylau and Zevakinsikiy) that derive up to ~25% of their ancestry from a source related to
    361 present-day East Asians and the remainder from Steppe_MLBA. A similar ancestry profile
    362 became widespread in the region by the Late Bronze Age, as documented by our time transect
    363 from Zevakinsikiy and samples from many sites dating to 1500-1000 BCE, and was ubiquitous
    364 by the Scytho-Sarmatian period in the Iron Age (34). This observation decreases the probability
    that populations in the 1st millennium BCE and 1 365 st millennium CE—including Scythians,
    peer-reviewed) is the author/funder. It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.
    bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 31, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/292581. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not
    12
    366 Kushans, and Huns, sometimes suggested as sources for the Steppe ancestry influences in South
    367 Asia today (17)—contributed to the majority of South Asians, which have negligible East Asian
    368 ancestry in our analysis. It is possible that there were unsampled groups in Central Asia with
    369 negligible East Asian admixture that could have migrated later to South Asia. However, at least
    370 some (possibly all) of the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in South Asia owes its origins to southward
    pulses in the 2 371 nd millennium BCE, as indeed we prove directly through our observation of this
    372 ancestry in the Swat Iron Age individuals dating to ~1000 BCE (discussed further below).


    so, either there are unsampled R1a steppe MLBA en route toward south Asia
    or there are unsampled R1a Scyths without East Asian admixture that made their way to South Asia
    Honestly, I never thought I'd say this, but I can see why the Indian scientists might have balked at the conclusions drawn in the text. It's really murky, and I can definitely see how you could argue that it's up in the air precisely how and with whom and how much actual Bronze Age "Steppe MLBA" ancestry there is in India, even northwestern India.

    With almost no R1a even in the Iron Age, and the fact that we have an EHG/ANE population which was there previously, along with lots and lots of Iran Neo, I can see how someone could make the argument that most of the R1a does not come from Bronze Age migrants from somewhere in the Andronovo horizon, and that most of the "Steppe MLBA" type ancestry either arrived earlier or later with Scythians.

    I wonder if there was total agreement among all the authors about this. Sometimes, when you want to not rock the boat too much in your own world, don't want to lose certain collaborators, you have to break with others, even though they might have very valid points. It's a shame if that happened.

    Yes, I saw that about the movement from Turan north. That explains the J2a on the steppe. Anyone know if there is a trail for that particular branch later on in Europe?
    Also, do you remember our discussions here about the development of metallurgy on the steppe, and I thought it didn't make sense that there was such sophisticated metallurgy in Sintashta, but never any trail for that from the western steppe, and indeed the fact that the metallurgy on the western steppe didn't reach that kind of sophistication until later than Sintashta? I think this is the reason. It may have come from the indeed sophisticated BMAC north along the Inner Asian Corridor. This also correlates with the work Frachetti has been doing. I was glad to see he was one of the collaborators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    You're saying that Maykop will have nothing to do with PIE, yet you're also saying that PIE originated in the Southern Caucuses and expanded onto the steppe. These two things are likely incompatible.
    That is the problem. People seem to be playing a PlayStation game.
    Maykop is over 1200 years after Shulaveri were gone!
    Whatever pushed Shulaveri away and out was not PiE. Or at least we can assume so.
    So if they later became leylatepe and maykop they probably were not PIE. Hence so many languagesnin caucasus.
    If Maykop arrived from Balkans, as some defend...then not Pie also... Probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ....Yes, I saw that about the movement from Turan north. That explains the J2a on the steppe. Anyone know if there is a trail for that particular branch later on in Europe?
    Also, do you remember our discussions here about the development of metallurgy on the steppe, and I thought it didn't make sense that there was such sophisticated metallurgy in Sintashta, but never any trail for that from the western steppe, and indeed the fact that the metallurgy on the western steppe didn't reach that kind of sophistication until later than Sintashta? I think this is the reason. It may have come from the indeed sophisticated BMAC north along the Inner Asian Corridor. This also correlates with the work Frachetti has been doing. I was glad to see he was one of the collaborators.
    Angela, one day someone will review what nmdental traits were saying for decades and compare with Adna theories over time.
    I remember a PCA from i think Zubova on nmdental traits that made me look on maps where the hell was east of Aral sea, because it cluster with armenian or anatolian something neolithic population...
    Will try to find it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Our brain always finds a way to spin things around does it not? And that is what you are doing .
    You're taking a single sample and fitting it to a fantastical sweeping theory that is based almost entirely on your conjecture. How am I spinning anything? I'm methodically running through the consequences of this guy and this region in general being PIE speakers. I've said it was possible, but unlikely given all the other data we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    a. Khvalynsk is not contemporaneous with this R1b Z2103 5500bc. Its a 1000 years later and with reservoir effect balanced it now is pushing Khvalynsk dating to something like 4200Bc or even later.
    5200-4000BC vs 5900-5500 BC and neither are radio carbon dated. The ranges are 300 years from touching, but I can use Samara Hunter gatherer to support the same point being that we see clear cultural continuity on the steppe from Samara through the Bronze Age. There isn't any huge change signaling the imposition of some external influence, which is something we'd like to see in IE expansions from the Caucuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    b. This guy Z2103 is the father of those eneolithic and yamnaya.
    No, not if he's Z2103. We could then only assign a likelyhood that he's father to the Z2103 Yamnaya Samara samples specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    d. shulaveri were many. The Kura river basin was packed with settlements. They were highly developed pastorals with big cattle, they were masters of domestication of plants and animals, we even find many horse bones in some settlements....
    That's great, but this sample wasn't on the Kura river. It was considerably south, so I don't know why you continue obsessing over this culture as if it definitely has something to do with the samples in question. And show me these horse findings. I'd love to see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    e. Do you think is a coincidence that when they suddenly and completely vanished, by 5000bc (some settlement even have a layer of ashes), at the exact time agriculture arrives in the north caucasus?
    And what does this have to do with Indo-europeans or the Iranian samples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    There is no better pattern for dispersal of PIE than them.
    I don't know exactly what you mean by this but it would be the least parsimonious method of expansion out of the region you tout. I've already given a basic explanation as to why, but of course I couldn't possibly cover all of the problems that need solving.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Honestly, I never thought I'd say this, but I can see why the Indian scientists might have balked at the conclusions drawn in the text. It's really murky, and I can definitely see how you could argue that it's up in the air precisely how and with whom and how much actual Bronze Age "Steppe MLBA" ancestry there is in India, even northwestern India.

    With almost no R1a even in the Iron Age, and the fact that we have an EHG/ANE population which was there previously, along with lots and lots of Iran Neo, I can see how someone could make the argument that most of the R1a does not come from Bronze Age migrants from somewhere in the Andronovo horizon, and that most of the "Steppe MLBA" type ancestry either arrived earlier or later with Scythians.

    I wonder if there was total agreement among all the authors about this. Sometimes, when you want to not rock the boat too much in your own world, don't want to lose certain collaborators, you have to break with others, even though they might have very valid points. It's a shame if that happened.

    Yes, I saw that about the movement from Turan north. That explains the J2a on the steppe. Anyone know if there is a trail for that particular branch later on in Europe?
    Also, do you remember our discussions here about the development of metallurgy on the steppe, and I thought it didn't make sense that there was such sophisticated metallurgy in Sintashta, but never any trail for that from the western steppe, and indeed the fact that the metallurgy on the western steppe didn't reach that kind of sophistication until later than Sintashta? I think this is the reason. It may have come from the indeed sophisticated BMAC north along the Inner Asian Corridor. This also correlates with the work Frachetti has been doing. I was glad to see he was one of the collaborators.
    Let me be clear, though. I absolutely don't believe there was any OIT.

    Nor do I think the modern Indians, alone among mankind, have no admixture and are exactly the same as they were in the Neolithic or even the Paleolithic. It's clear there was a huge gene flow from Iranian farmers into India. It's also clear, imo, there was a substantial impact from the north, even if not as large as the former. It's the nature, timing and amount of the latter which I think is much more complicated than the version which has been peddled.

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    My apologies Maciamo, I think that I confussed you with another member discussing R1b in Kura-Araxes, and by the fact to remember your map about R1b or someone's else delivering R1b from Iran in unspecified dates, supposedly in Paleolithic.

    Attachment 9959

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    That is the problem. People seem to be playing a PlayStation game.
    Maykop is over 1200 years after Shulaveri were gone!
    Whatever pushed Shulaveri away and out was not PiE. Or at least we can assume so.
    So if they later became leylatepe and maykop they probably were not PIE. Hence so many languagesnin caucasus.
    If Maykop arrived from Balkans, as some defend...then not Pie also... Probably.
    Some of the newer work on Leyla Tepe is interesting. Najaf Museyibli (2016):

    The ceramic traditionof the Leilatepe culture society was a developedand independent handicraft. The culture, both as awhole, and with particular regard to its ceramic production,is linked to Eastern Anatolian- NorthernMesopotamian Late Chalcolithic traditions originating from post-Ubaid developments. Meanwhile, the Maikop culture of the Northern Caucasus emerged from the Leilatepe culture. The spread of these culturesstage covers occurred during the first half of the fourth millennium B.C. in Western Asia and theCaucasus. Pottery is the main diagnostic material ofthe Neolithic, Chalcolithic, and Bronze Ages. In this sense, the Leilatepe culture is not an exception. Theunique ceramic wares of this culture indicate an influentialrole in the development of the potter‟swheel, and they differs radically from the pottery ofpreceding archaeological cultures in the South Caucasus and of the Leilatepe culture‟s contemporary neighbors, with whom they did not have genetic ties.
    The Ubaid culture quite peculiar too. I've read Alberto Green's "The Storm God in the Ancient Near East" just recently, not expecting it to be so heavy on archaeological research. Describing the female-centred rites of the hunter gatherers and early peasants he asks this question:

    How then can we account for the conceptual emergence of a dominant masculine “storm-god” and his endemic role as a fertility deity in historic times?
    He sees the beginning of this shift (that would take place across language barriers) in Ubaid:

    Although fishing may have been the dominant industry when southern Mesopotamia emerged during the Eridu culture and into the Ubaid civilization, greater reliance on agriculture and changing climatic conditions forced the inhabitants to engage in drainage operations and work on irrigation. Because this development necessitated the cooperation of men in larger units than the typical Neolithic village, this could have had widespread consequences that led to the emergence of the characteristic city-state of the third millennium b.c.e. . The Ubaid culture, through a highly efficient peasanteconomy based on irrigation, still made fish offerings to a prehistoric male Water-god of the region. This is the earliest prehistoric evidence of the prominence of a male deity.
    Perhaps the emergence of single-grave kurgans in Leila Tepe as a supposedly male-centred symbol is a symptom of these changes in religious rite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    What of the Indo Aryan speaking groups in the Kingdom of Mittani in the Levant ? what migration path did they take ?

    Late Bronze Age Canaanites from Megiddo should be a mixture of Levant EBA + Armenia MLBA (source), the Armenian admixing population should be the Hurrians.

    The Hurrians had connections to Indo-Aryan speakers, Armenia MLBA is different from the preceding Early Bronze Age in having a larger portion of ancestry from the EHG, so my theory is Steppe populations moved to south Caucasus and admixed genetically and culturally with the Hurrian population there, and then migrated to the Levant.
    I had always figured they came from the East around the Caspian because this is what Indo-Iranian seems to have done.

    The Mittani thing is interesting. The Aryan seems only to be a horse training lexicon. Conclude what you will from that. Some say an Aryan horse riding elite who dominated Hurrian speakers forming the Mittani, but others don't like this for obvious reasons, so I say "horse training vocabulary" to keep people from getting excited.

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