Central and South Asian DNA Paper

In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...

You don't seem to understand that none of those Mesolithic R1b is ancestral to modern European R1b. The oldest R1b-M269 ever found to date is that one from Hajji Firuz.
 
I wasn't mentioning this one, there are others which are doubtfull, most the R1b-M269 in Mal'ta but also the E1b1a..

AFAIK only this one made people rush to prove/disprove it. Its also telling ...
 
You don't seem to understand that none of those Mesolithic R1b is ancestral to modern European R1b. The oldest R1b-M269 ever found to date is that one from Hajji Firuz.
Maciamo. Thats not for me right? I am telling the same as you.

... And by 5500bc would clearly expect a L23....but Z2103 not really.
 
What I find more intriguing, as I said above, is the lack of R1a. Are they saving that for another paper, when they will also reveal the yDna of the "Siberian Hunter-Gatherers" and perhaps draw the line to specific groups within the Andronovo horizon, now we know there was structure there?

R1a-M417 is much younger (TMRCA of 5500 years, at the start of Yamna) than R1b-M269 or even R1b-L23. Considering that all Indo-European R1a descends from a single R1a-M417 who lived at the beginning of the Yamna period, I don't see how R1a-M417 could be found alongside R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus. It was clearly an indigenous R1a lineage that got lucky, probably becoming a prolific chieftain or king in the forest-steppe zone that gave rise to Corded Ware. Yamna individuals tested were mostly from elite graves, but there is little doubt in my mind that the 'common people' were the same as in Sredny Stog (old clades of R1a and R1b + I2a2a-L701). It's thanks to elitism, patriarchy and polygamy that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 managed to expand so very fast at the expense of now nearly extinct side lineages of R1a and R1b.
 
R1a-M417 is much younger (TMRCA of 5500 years, at the start of Yamna) than R1b-M269 or even R1b-L23. Considering that all Indo-European R1a descends from a single R1a-M417 who lived at the beginning of the Yamna period, I don't see how R1a-M417 could be found alongside R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus. It was clearly an indigenous R1a lineage that got lucky, probably becoming a prolific chieftain or king in the forest-steppe zone that gave rise to Corded Ware. Yamna individuals tested were mostly from elite graves, but there is little doubt in my mind that the 'common people' were the same as in Sredny Stog (old clades of R1a and R1b + I2a2a-L701). It's thanks to elitism, patriarchy and polygamy that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 managed to expand so very fast at the expense of now nearly extinct side lineages of R1a and R1b.

Yes, I understand that, Maciamo. I meant the lack of R1a in the South Asian samples. Out of all those samples, there's only one, and it's very late. Yet the "steppe" ancestry is there, if not as high as an average as many predicted.
 
Yes, I understand that, Maciamo. I meant the lack of R1a in the South Asian samples. Out of all those samples, there's only one, and it's very late. Yet the "steppe" ancestry is there, if not as high as an average as many predicted.

Sorry, I didn't know you meant in South Asia as we were discussing the R1b from the South Caucasus. R1a did enter quite late in South Asia (from 1800-1500 BCE), but the reason it is so rare in these samples is probably because the Indo-Aryan established a very segregated society and the samples aren't from Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Actually there is not much diversity in the South Asian samples. All are from the Swat Valley of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in northern Pakistan and all from the Iron Age. One mountain valley could easily have been bypassed by the Indo-Aryan invaders.
 
In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...
Olympus Mons alot of R1b guys break it all.
The Basal R1b project has these samples as M269-no mutations thereafter, again all within Europe. You will have to correspond with admin of that project of your findings with regards to adding or deleting the M269 samples.
hWHFcWO85gWXp9RQ-Region.png




WK8COV04dWFBNtG1-Region.png

https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf
 
Olympus Mons alot of R1b guys break it all.
The Basal R1b project has these samples as M269-no mutations thereafter, again all within Europe. You will have to correspond with admin of that project of your findings with regards to adding or deleting the M269 samples.
hWHFcWO85gWXp9RQ-Region.png




WK8COV04dWFBNtG1-Region.png

https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf

Kumbarov already got me into troubles with a M269 that genetiker showed me was H2. So I stay clear.
 
Kumbarov already got me into troubles with a M269 that genetiker showed me was H2. So I stay clear.
Everyone makes mistakes. Have you seen the list that have put their names to this paper. Was it peer reviewed?


Vagheesh M Narasimhan, Nick J Patterson, Priya Moorjani, Iosif Lazaridis, Lipson Mark, Swapan Mallick, Nadin Rohland, Rebecca Bernardos, Alexander M Kim, Nathan Nakatsuka, Inigo Olalde, Alfredo Coppa, James Mallory, Vyacheslav Moiseyev, Janet Monge, Luca M Olivieri, Nicole Adamski, Nasreen Broomandkhoshbacht, Francesca Candilio, Olivia Cheronet, Brendan J Culleton, Matthew Ferry, Daniel Fernandes, Beatriz Gamarra, Daniel Gaudio, Mateja Hajdinjak, Eadaoin Harney, Thomas K Harper, Denise Keating, Ann-Marie Lawson, Megan Michel, Mario Novak, Jonas Oppenheimer, Niraj Rai, Kendra Sirak, Viviane Slon, Kristin Stewardson, Zhao Zhang, Gaziz Akhatov, Anatoly N Bagashev, Baurzhan Baitanayev, Gian Luca Bonora, Tatiana Chikisheva, Anatoly Derevianko, Enshin Dmitry, Katerina Douka, Nadezhda Dubova, Andrey Epimakhov, Suzanne Freilich, Dorian Fuller, Alexander Goryachev, Andrey Gromov, Bryan Hanks, Margaret Judd, Erlan Kazizov, Aleksander Khokhlov, Egor Kitov, Elena Kupriyanova, Pavel Kuznetsov, Donata Luiselli, Farhad Maksudov, Chris Meiklejohn, Deborah C Merrett, Roberto Micheli, Oleg Mochalov, Zahir Muhammed, Samridin Mustafakulov, Ayushi Nayak, Rykun M Petrovna, Davide Pettner, Richard Potts, Dmitry Razhev, Stefania Sarno, Kulyan Sikhymbaevae, Sergey M Slepchenko, Nadezhda Stepanova, Svetlana Svyatko, Sergey Vasilyev, Massimo Vidale, Dima Voyakin, Antonina Yermolayeva, Alisa Zubova, Vasant S Shinde, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Matthias Meyer, David Anthony, Nicole Boivin, Kumarasmy Thangaraj, Douglas Kennett, Michael Frachetti, Ron Pinhasi, David Reich

I'm very great full that educated people are using their time and resources to figure out who we are and how we fit into the genetic story of our ancestors. However, have you seen what MA1, is something like R1b? Have you or Genetiker ever made any mistakes, anything that you overlooked? The point is sometimes mistakes happen. We can only try our best, and not judge others for the same mistakes the we ourselves could make, and keep and open mind to the data. In my opinion.
 
Everyone makes mistakes. Have you seen the list that have put their names to this paper. Was it peer reviewed?
I'm very great full that educated people are using their time and resources to figure out who we are and how we fit into the genetic story of our ancestors. However, have you seen what MA1, is something like R1b? Have you or Genetiker ever made any mistakes, anything that you overlooked? The point is sometimes mistakes happen. We can only try our best, and not judge others for the same mistakes the we ourselves could make, and keep and open mind to the data. In my opinion.
... Just saying not all R1b are the same.
For the story that have been pushed into the throat of people like me for the past 5 years to be true, there could never be found where it was a M269. Let alone a L23... But a z2103 from 5500b? -Hell this a revolution.
 
... Just saying not all R1b are the same.
For the story that have been pushed into the throat of people like me for the past 5 years to be true, there could never be found where it was a M269. Let alone a L23... But a z2103 from 5500b? -Hell this a revolution.

Okay Olympus. I don't know your ydna group, but we can use my group-----to explain, since by your theory I should be related to your subject.
Lets start at L23-what date do you give that mutation? yfull gives the mutation 6400YBP --do you agree or disagree?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/
 
Okay Olympus. I don't know your ydna group, but we can use my group-----to explain, since by your theory I should be related to your subject.
Lets start at L23-what date do you give that mutation? yfull gives the mutation 6400YBP --do you agree or disagree?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/

According to my theory that date of 6400 ybp would be impossible. L23 had to be born as a Shulaveri still (so latest 7500 ybp) in time to allow z2103 to be born close to shulaveri disappearance 7000 ybp. Because by 6900ybp they were fleeing into kuban river up to steppe.
 
R1a-M417 is much younger (TMRCA of 5500 years, at the start of Yamna) than R1b-M269 or even R1b-L23. Considering that all Indo-European R1a descends from a single R1a-M417 who lived at the beginning of the Yamna period, I don't see how R1a-M417 could be found alongside R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus. It was clearly an indigenous R1a lineage that got lucky, probably becoming a prolific chieftain or king in the forest-steppe zone that gave rise to Corded Ware. Yamna individuals tested were mostly from elite graves, but there is little doubt in my mind that the 'common people' were the same as in Sredny Stog (old clades of R1a and R1b + I2a2a-L701). It's thanks to elitism, patriarchy and polygamy that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 managed to expand so very fast at the expense of now nearly extinct side lineages of R1a and R1b.

I would say J2b2-L283 probably expanded in the same manner as those 3 Hg's you just mentioned, just in the direction of balkan, instead of in the direction of northern Europe.
If they were not one of the elite lineages too, then it does not make sense why J-L283 and R-Z2103 got to colonize the best and most fertile areas with the most lootable stuff, while L51 and M417 got the more desolate and mineral-poor north.
 
Yes, I understand that, Maciamo. I meant the lack of R1a in the South Asian samples. Out of all those samples, there's only one, and it's very late. Yet the "steppe" ancestry is there, if not as high as an average as many predicted.

indeed, there is a lot of R1a in South Asia today, and according to the paper, it does not come from the Scyths, it got there earlier, that should be Steppe MLBA then
 
the paper tries to modell all observed populations as a mixture from 7 anciant genomes

can anybody tell how much Basal Eurasian each of these 7 godfathers had?
it would be interesting to know ..
 
I would say J2b2-L283 probably expanded in the same manner as those 3 Hg's you just mentioned, just in the direction of balkan, instead of in the direction of northern Europe.
If they were not one of the elite lineages too, then it does not make sense why J-L283 and R-Z2103 got to colonize the best and most fertile areas with the most lootable stuff, while L51 and M417 got the more desolate and mineral-poor north.

I think that J2b2-L283 just happened to be more common in the Balkans today due to a founder effect in the Illyrian population. Otherwise J2b2-L283 is found pretty much all over Europe, even if at lower frequencies in the north.
 
I wouldn't rely too much on cranial shapes as these can change quickly when two populations merge with each other, and a lot of diversity is generally found within a single population. For example Yamna skulls could be brachycephalic, mesocephalic and dolichocephalic. Bell Beakers weren't even a single ethnic group.

For I think cranial shapes has always some indications to give to us when seriously studied - variations exist within pops but for the most these variations has an history - OK for BB's as an heterogenous pop in space and time, not only variated - the most of Yamna were rather meso-dolicho (but with rather low faces) and the most of CWC were rather dolicho high faced and high skulled, what does not exclude a common component among both at some degree - that said, Joren provided 'Pamir-Ferghana' type evocates curiously 'dinaric' (so a part of early BBs "linker" population, if not the true first BBs)- I noticed this upon current Tadjiks of the mountains - origin? convergence in microevolution?
I know the little confidence of people in craniometrics so this ought to be discussed in an anthropo thread, even if it could be linked from far to the present thread
 

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