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Thread: Metrics taxinomic anthropology and DNA - Steppes and I-E? use?

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Metrics taxinomic anthropology and DNA - Steppes and I-E? use?



    I open this thread here not to soil linguistic and genetic threads, spite all that is linked in some way, whatever the accuracy of methods -
    Don't try to answer or add before I arrive to comparisons between anthropologic and DNA data (the few I have at hand), please, just to make it clearer -

    Some metric surveys, whatever their lacks, tell us something :
    Eurasian Steppes pops of Neolithic and then Metals ages show us :
    - the earlier pops were of (an) « archaic » type(S), high statured, dolichocephalic but rather broadfaced, with rugged and robust bones etc. even in so called Ukraine Neolithic ; this not too precise description (‘cromagnoids’, ‘paleoeuropoids’) applies to Mesolithic and first Neolithic people of South-East Baltic lands then North-East Europe sensu stricto -
    - Neolithic apparently from Southeastern Europe brought new types, smallstatured and slender dolicho-subdolicho’s narrowfaced or smallfaced and very highskulled (‘gracile mediters’ or ‘danubians’ types), who began the majority of Cucuteni and Tripolje area – there, when unbalanced, the crossings show only a female mediated input of earlier archaic types, not a male one) -
    - as a whole the stock herders pops of the Chalco and later Bronze Ages were a mix of the archaic robust types with something evocating more slender types supposed of Southern origin ; nevertheless the most common result of the crossing was a tallstatured pop, dolichocephalic, with high face not so broad, but very more robust than the previously known ‘mediter’ types of any Western or Southern region – here and there was found too some brachycephals, I suppose they were rather robust enough, maybe already on the way to a kind of ‘dinaric’ -
    - C.S. Coon about CWC types « created » the ‘corded’ type, rather high statured, dolichocrane, high faced, very highskulled and rather more robust than the ‘mediter’ types ; he describes him as having a lot of ressemblances concerning skull with Al Ubaid Mesopotamian so called ‘eurafrican’ or ‘robust mediter’ type of some authors, spite higher skulled than this southern type, and with Iranian tribes of the Steppes – but he added elsewhere some details : a) in his mind ‘corded’ were come from Ukraine or close surroundings, were he found also his small ‘danubian type’ we may supposed issued from a Tripolye influence, or from a not too far other Neolithic pop -
    b) he proposed that the CWC people who colonised Northwestern and Central Europe (and even Northeastern Europe, Battle Axe and Cy) were a selected pop as it arrives often among a general pop from where emigrate a certain number of people ; I personally add selection can be AND geographic (small local group) AND based on other criteria (age, warlike qualities, gener…); this is not senseless because it could explain some phenotypic distances between two samples of pops of same global origins spite they do not show big discrepancies concerning total auDNA -
    & : plus we know some CWC settlements were homogenous enough when others, the ones of Central South Europe and Southwestern Germany were very heterogenous by absorbtion of local females (and perhaps even rare males) what is confirmed by dental non-metric traits and auDNA -
    in Northeastern South Baltic Europe the CWC derived « products » Battle Axes were more robust and show either a later mix with our well known archaic types or the fact that the departing pops for this target lands were closer to the mean type of Southwestern Steppes of Ukraine – some authors had advanced the CWC pop and the close enough Unetice one were autochtonous in Northcentral Europe, classifying them as ‘gracile and robust mediters’ ; but the skull heights and other details point to some more Eastern mix for the elites – ATW the auDNA seems showing us the CWC were not completely homogenous - spite they were more than BBC were – and this is the result of their implantation ad diverse local matings -

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Steppes people of diverse periods and culture have been studied, with sufficient samples -
    briefly said, speaking about « distances » without taxinomy, ATW based on the same uneven mix :
    -Sredny Stog (4500/3500) : rather aside of the others ; the least far : Catacombs of Don and some sites of Afanasyevo in Altay ; one says its ‘mediter’ part tends towards Balkans ‘mediters’ so the ‘danubians’ of Coon or something born by them of ANF remote origin ; I think it points to a CTC (Tripolye) offsprings input, which will have taken part in the earlier Catacombs and before that some input on Altay Afanasyevo ? To date we have not the precise Y-haplo’s subclades to judge (Y-R1b and Y-I2a2 from N-W Tripolye or post-Neolithic neighbours of it?) Or a West Caucasus pop mixed of ANF and CHG ? - (All that depends on the direction of cultural and genetic flows, what is not so evident -
    interestingly, here it’s not an introgression of archaic females but one of ‘mediter’ males, so we could suppose this (surely heavy) minority of Southern males were active and culturally dominant ? ; or only an « allowed » contribution of « know how to know » well evolved foreign smithes ? - on some PCA (craniology) Sredny Stog types were as the Yamna Pit Graves between Neolithic archaic pops of Eastern Ukraine and Pit Graves of Kalmykia on one side, and Armenia and Maykop pops on the other side -
    - Pit Graves (PGC 3500/2300) : Yamna and Kalmykia : apparently the Kalmykia PGC as the Kalmykia (Late?) Catacomb pop was a bit closer to archaic Neolithic pops and to Afansyevo and showed few ties with Europeans of the time West of Ukraine (Kalmykia people were more robust than the Steppes means, a bit larger of skull and face, and a bit flatter of facial horizontal profile at the level of the orbits, spite without noticeable ‘eastasian’ input) – Yamna pop was surely not completely homogenous but as a whole was between Southern pops and the archaic ones – something among Ukraine Neolithic could point to a mesocephalic or brachycephalic pop of unkown origin, but here not on the ‘dinaric’ side (some pop of North-East, with ANE, with some hints to the badly defined ‘proto-uralic’ type of Southwestern Siberia ? (someones speak today of an autosomal pop of Western Siberia HG’s)? not absurd ubova in its work about penetration of Steppics into BMAC found in some PCA’s Caucasian pops of the time overlapped greatly with the Kazakhstan pops and at a roughly said 12/15 % level with the Ural/Volga pops -
    & : aside, some robust brachycephals appearing into South Caucasus North Near-East around the 2000 BC, maybe akin to some Hittites types and the current Georgian brachycephalic element (and surely North Caucasus current pops) recall me too at first sight a Tadjiks heavy component (same origin ? Convergence?) -
    - The Mesolithic pops of Ukraine were more dolichocephalic spite very robust, a bit less broad faced, so surely close enough to the Baltic lands Mesolithic people who had less auDNA of EHG, more of WHG ?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    - Afanasyevo (3300/2400) : the closest ones are both sorts of Catacombs means (2800/2200) and Timber Graves/Srubna (TGC 1600/1200) - Afanasyevo people as a whole lack the « european » elements present in these two other cultures (mix where was heavy the Neolithic pops unput) , the Late Catacoms and the Kalmykia Catacombs even closer to Afanasyevo mean contrary to Afanasyevo Gora and Afanasyevo of Tuva (Altay) which showed « european » input ! -
    - Catacombs (2800/2200) : two sorts ; early ones of Ukraine with more Central and Western « european » elements and the later ones, with more ties towards South-West Central Asia and Transcaucasia, spite also more ties to Eastern Steppes -
    - (Y)Elunino (2300/1700 Sibérie S-W) : affinities with West Europeans and Poland people and too with 2 samples of Kura Araxes C. -
    - Andronovo (2000/900) : globally, as a mean, skulls and faces a bit broader/shorter than the mean of the Steppes pops, and lower orbits ; no cut off nevertheless, but surely less homogeneity than thought-
    - Alakul (2000/1800) : East : PGC of Kalmykia the closest (more mesocephalic, more upper face flatness) – West : other PGC and Early Catacombs the closest, TGC Srubna not far, so more « european » elements - (the TGC Srubna of Minussinsk closer to global Afanasyevo, so very few « european », at the opposite) – the non-metric dental traits of West Alakul confirm influences of diverse pops of Europe + very little input of ‘east-asians’ spite the teeth did not undergo reduction ; for this aspect, East Alakul would have shown some more ‘east-asian’ input -
    - Fedorovo (1700/1300 until Xinjiang China) : rather the sites of Altay, near Afanasyevo of Seldyar, close enough to Catacombs Kalmykia and PGC Poltavka -
    & : I retain it’s the Altay places of more than a culture which show the more of « European » input -
    - BMAC region (by Dubova): neat separation between first Northern Steppic tribes types and the sedentary BMAC oasis pops – the first apparition of ‘proto-europoid’ input there would have begun around the mid 2nd millenium BC, among pastors already integrated and staying around the Urb in the case of Gonur Depe by instance – before Bronze and during the beginning of it almost no trace of this steppic input ; and the groups which reached the South at the Bronze were were a compound of ‘mediters’ (more?) plus ‘proto-europoids’ (less?) ; not a massive introgression, rather a process of constant infiltrations, according to Dubova … -
    & : in one PCA of his work the most spred (variable at individuel level) pops were Caucasus and Kazakhstan ones with Caucasus overlapping here and there with Kazakhstan, Ural/Volga, Turkmenistan, Kadjikistan/Uzbekistan, Iran/Pakistan pops ;

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    - autosomal DNA : the surprise have been the discovery of EEF or ANF admixture among some steppic pops of bronze Age, what could confirm some metric and non-metric surveys – what has been interpreted by someones as an European introgression ; but in detail Mathieson admixtures show Andronovo and Sintashta (among the latest) had this kind of ANF along their ‘Yamna’ mix, almost without WHG, when Srubna and Potakovka show ANF + WHG addition, what seems better to confirm an European input -
    in the Mathieson PCA Things are not so straight forwards – Andronovo and Sintashta are close, apparently Andronovo is close enough to modern East-Central Europeans (between Poland and Hungary?) and Sintashta a little bit closer to modern South-East Europeans (between Hungary and Romania?) ; but it does not contradict the tendancy towards more ANF in it ; that said a total absence of WHG in Sintashta is maybe to be taken with caution – Potapovka, with more WHG but very less AEF is logically drifted towards North-East Europe, spite still in a Yamna cluster – Poltavka also clusters with Yamna but one outlier appears between Scandinavia and Poland-Belarus pops -
    & : some discrepancies : Sintashta and Andronovo, spite they plot among modern East Europeans on the Mathieson PCA, are without any WHG in admixture ; as PCA’s are incomplete pictures and EHG are WHG in some way, we could pass upon this ; then we have to explain this « excess » of ANF without WHG : a new mix from Chalco South Caucasus with more Anatolians ? But as it is difficult to imagine an almost pure ANF moving Eastwards at those times when the mixture Iran/CHGlike +ANF was surely went far enough we are obliged to think that something is wrong : either this ANF was accompanied by some WHG, or the Yamnaya mix has to be broken into less Yamnaya mix + distinct North Steppes EHG (kind WHG+ANE, we are there in northern lands) + distinct CHG (in fact new Iran+ANF input), roughly said ; Grigoryev thought from archeology that Sintashta had deep roots at least into South-East Caspian regions, this last scenario could be correct – here we have the question of attributions of « basic components » to diverse more or less pure more recent admixtures ; I know genetists have some practice to play with it but when I see some discrepancies between diverse scientists works about the same matter, I stay a bit doubtfull.
    Concerning metrics, the already mixed aspect of Yamna and first Western and Central Steppic pops is confirmed by auDNA (CHG) and the more « european » aspect of later Steppes cultures DNA (before Iron) too, a sa whole. The question is that Steppics were not completely homogenous (gradiant in the mixes) spite sharing common basis, and that the metric surveys had concerned more numerous groups (within and between) than the auDNA surveys, to date – that can explain the Andronovo question ; the same with Afanasyevo or Catacombs : which region ?, which group ? -
    to be pursued

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    Here are very interesting conversations in Eurogenes regarding the Harvard new paper. Looks like there is confusing b/c they have so different looks, but lots of R1a. I saw many posts in anthro forum to ask why central asia mongoloid and caucasoid have the same pamir type skulls.

    Pls see this image:
    https://i.img.ie/fecze.jpg




    • I'm just starting to discover Central Asia is really interesting region. Look at the difference between Kyrgyz and Tajik two neighboring ethnic groups one Turkic and one Iranian.

      Kyrgyz
      Steppe_MLBA_East 15.3
      Iran_Chl 10.8
      West_Siberia_N 3
      Mongola 36.3
      Ulchi 21.6
      Yakut 11.5
      Mala (ASI) 0

      Tajik
      Steppe_MLBA_East 38.9
      Iran_Chl 20.7
      Iran Neo 21
      West_Siberia_N 9.8
      Mongola,3.7
      Ulchi,0.1
      Mala,6.1



    epoch2013 said...
    @Samuel

    Tajiks and Kyrgyz differ very much in looks, the former basically West-Eurasian and the latter Mongolid.
    April 13, 2018 at 3:29 AM

    Elliv J said...

    Kyrgyz is still very R1a thou
    Being genetically so different from each other, looks like their skull would be close to pamir type.

    I think they would not have that much of genetic difference, b/c their ancestor would be intermediate like okunevo, including lots of eneolithic karzak peoples. This okunevo has a large brach skull with almost 40-50% west eurasia gene. Adding 20% west genes or 20% east genes, the brachy skull would become pamir type(or andronovo type) caucaoid and (pamir or androno type) mongoloids.

    And 2013 research said about Altai people explains it also:

    Interestingly, in western Truvinian sample, the frequency of haplogroup R1a1a was considerably
    lower than in the central sample. Based on the closeness of the Altai, which is populated by the representatives of a more Caucasoid SouthSiberian racial
    type, it would be reasonable to expect the west–east decrease of the R1a1a frequency on the territory of Tuva. However, this was not observed, and the change of the haplogroup frequency was rather the opposite, as the eastern samples demonstrated maximum frequency of this haplogroup. At the first glance, the result obtained is paradoxical. Specifically, in terms of anthropology, the most Caucasoid population of the western parts of Tuva displays the minimum of haplogroup R1a1a, while in the most Mongoloid population of Todja, the maximum of this haplogroup is observed.


    Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid


    ** The same thing happened in gracile yamna being mixed with EHG and CHG.
    EHG is intermediate, but strong caucaoid.( short skull, broad face, upper facial flatness with a sharp covex nose).
    EHG description is the same as cromagnon, hence, so many russian anthropologist connects yamna to cromagnon, which becomes non sense now, as you know.

    But okunevo people mongoloid strong (short skull, broad face, horizontal flatness with convex nose).
    Andronovo source population, protoeuropoid, are shorter than yamna with EEF, being sifted to mongoloid.
    Until now, russian anthropologists don't prove how come brachylization happened in bronze central asia. Moreover they don't know how ural people, intermediate, happen. Everything is related with amalgamation of ANE and their descendants, being segregated from west until 2,000 bc and from East until iron age.

    The Pamirid race, also Pamir-Fergana race (Russian Памиро-ферганская раса, named for the Pamir range and the Fergana valley), is the most Eastern subrace of the Europid race, common in Central Asia, represented mostly by the Tajiks (especially mountain Tajiks), the Pamir people and the majority of Uzbeks. Characterized by brachycephalic skull, dark hair, dark skin (these characteristics are absent in the Pamir people and the mountain Tajiks), narrow protruding nose and fairly strong development of the tertiary hair cover.[1]
    The origin of the Andronovo variant of the Proto-European trait combination appears to be the least disputable. Its wide distribution was evidently associated with the spread of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) culture from a single area. Because admixture seldom if ever results in the decrease of the facial height (Bunak, 1980), very low faces of the Andronovo people support the idea that this population originated in a single region, and that isolation was the major factor in its origin (Alekseyev, 1961). While the idea that the ancestors of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) people lived in Kazakhstan before the Middle Bronze Age (Ibid.) appears plausible, it cannot be supported by available data at present.

    Culturally, they were associated with Afanesyev, Timbergrave (Srubnaya), and Tazabagyab cultures, with the Andronovo (Alakul) culture of western Kazakhstan, and with the Sintashta-like culture of Potapovka. Morphologically, this cluster is intermediate between the “Andronovo proper” (Proto-European) cluster and the “Mediterranean” cluster. Accordingly, the “intermediate” cluster includes both Proto-European and Mediterranean series.


    Last edited by johen; 13-04-18 at 22:51.

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    ^^
    The andronovo anthro data can be proved by archaeology of east kazarstan tin bronze minging, early bronze age Dali cremation culture in inner asia mountain corridor.

    Moreover, R1a-z93 map is also consistent with the anthro data:
    1 day before the new Harvard research was published, I discussed IE south migration in Anthrogenica. Due to archaeoloy and anthro facts, I explained the migration of East Europe bronze to south aisa is impossible. The facts cannot be accepted to genetic lovers. Lastly I posted the following z93 map, and asked him whether this map is “ checkmate.” He replied “ are you soaking in salt?”




    This z93 map exactly matchs with the new migration map in the new research paper and Reich new book.
    As you see, the z93 people clusters around Inner asia mountain corridor, but rare around the 2 line from east yamna to altai. Why did it happen? Is it correct of z93 to migrate from East Europe to south asia thru central asia? Actually to me, the most important part is not R1a-z93, which might write Rigveda. Rigveda produced Hindu culture, which is extremely similar to mayan.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/03/bf...d395a75bae.jpg
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-down-pyramids


    Moreover, european cline is from EEF to CWC. I think it mean they seem to differenciate z282 group and z93 people.

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    first elements of answer to Johen - mt aim was to show anthropology (metrics and non-metrics) can signal some changes, spite auDNA seems a better mean;
    - 'pamir type' (maybe ancient name: 'turanian race'?) can be common to Tadjiks and Kirgyzs as heavy component; that said the other components are surely different and I think it's only a type forged upon means of traits - I'm not expert in Central Asian but the photos I saw show as a whole neat differences between Tadjiks and Kirgyzs, not only for skin colour but also for features; Kirgyzs have very often long enough faces (broad cheekbones but very high narrow lower face) associated to brachy skulls of a different shape, what is a 'mongol' (not 'mongoloid') trait, commonly found in intruders of the Iron in Altay, which crossed with 'europoids' there - the Tadjiks I saw seemed more robust as a whole than the mongoloid component, rather brachycephalic in a bony way, sometime evocationg something not too far from so called 'borreby's' , sometime evocating something vaguely 'dinaric' (the Tadjiks of the lower lands would have been less brachy, so more meso, and lighter pigmented for hair)- all the way I don't see any discrepancy between the supposed auDNA making and the phenotypes of these two different pops; both show they share some common genetic source in their complicated mix, not all of them, and in very different proportions -
    concerning Okunevo, the basis of the pop would have been a rather brachycephalic type which traits are not exactly the ones waited from a crossing 'europoid'-'est-asian', according to litterature (I never saw one) - theory: an archaic type not yet differentiated between West-Eurasians and East-Eurasians: possible indeed - the auDNA seems nevertheless confirm a mix of 'europoids' and 'east-asian'; I don't know - but an old two-sources crossing + isolation can produce a not-mean (not-balanced) association of two-sources inherited traits: what would be interesting would be to know if the genes distribution shows too this unbalanced redistribution - but as total automomes are more numerous than phenotypical ones, they are less subject to big drifts in a short time; some admixture use WSHG (WestSiberian HG) for the pop where this type is dominant: but it's not a true basic one I think spite it is surely strong for ANE - I wonder if this element is not one of the basis of the Tadjiks brachycephaly, assciated with others elements -
    - in think in Pazyryk the 'east-asian' type was very close to the 'mongol' type, not to the WSHG, at least concerning the new elements - concerning Y-R1a, as we know, the links between total DNA and uniparental haplo's are since a long time very loose; I don't see at first sight any obstacle to some Y-R1b's with strong 'east-asian' input; but this story can be more puzzled, with first waves of Y-R1a (maybe not IE speaker) more western colonising east to Altay regions and loosing the most of their supposed 'europoid' traits ; I suppose Y-R from Y-P made its way accross Northern India and splitted out into Y-R1 and R2 not far from there before Y R1 colonised other regions, Central Eurasia steppes among them, so a vaste bit of world - the later subclades could have known a lot of different stories; but it seems the most of today Y-R1a bearers owe their variant to a North-Northeast European ancestor, rather on the ‘europoid’ side ; later, a lot of things could occur -
    - (Mesologic) EHG of Europes were rather dolicho to mesocehalic for I know, not brachycephalic at all, spite with broad faces, the opposite to ‘mongol’ type (rough description indeed; I think they were since a long time a crossing of diverse post-Paleo types of Western Europe as well as from Eastern Europe: bones say this, and very ancient auDNA too) - the Andronovo types (not brachy, but meso BTW) is maybe not a type, but the mean of a crossing where this EHG type or pseudo-type, numerous, crossed with WSHG type or pseudo-type, less numerous and maybe too sharing some archaic traits with it and some partial more recent ancestry, majing the diagnostic uneasy – the lack of Western ‘mediter’ types and of EEF auDNA seems confirming Andronovo had a lot of local ancestry (today Kazakhstan ofr the most : rather EHG + maybe some West Siberia HG and NN) and a ‘mediter’ rather eastern (CHG/Iran-like) – still uncertain nevertheless...

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    Andronovo: I precise: some sites showed also the so called 'gracile' elements considered by someones as 'mediter' of some sort, but by Kozintsev as European for a big part; surely not pure 'EEF'/'ANF' people but a mix with some more European HG 's imput; the auDNA studies found EEF or assimilated elements, what seems to confirm a West-Asian input; all the way, every Andronovo site has some peculiarities; it was not a monoblock pop - Grigoryev criticized the affiliation of Alakul to true Andronovo, linking it as Petrovka and TGC to "iranian" Sintashta -
    - what would be interesting is to know if we can link precisely dates to changes in metrics and auDNA what needs bigger samplings I rhink -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    first elements of answer to Johen - mt aim was to show anthropology (metrics and non-metrics) can signal some changes, spite auDNA seems a better mean;
    Actually I am not focusing just on skull shape or metrics/non-metrics, sorry.
    My main point is that answer to ancient thing is from genetics, archaeology(silent language) and anthropology also. Each part gives us only 33%.

    With anthro data after LGM, genetically after neolithization, UP people disappeared in Europe. According to Dr. Brace, bronze Kurgan people in Crimea became gracile mediterranean type already.
    However, UP people in central Asia, especially ANE descendants survived by segregation even in 700bc like chandman people in Mongol. And East scythian in altai, later east Hun also has kept this UP type.
    Important thing is this UP people and mediterranean type started to mix since bronze age.
    For example, see sintashta case. Their genetics admixture clusters with modern east european. However, Russian anthropologist say their skulls are broadly UP type.
    2017 great genetics paper made “ dilute thory.” Looks like very scientific and very mathematic. Problem is anthropologically this thing would not happen.
    Upenn scholar I. M said in his paper that EHG was diluted by med people to Yamna. Yamna was done to sintashta and andronovo.
    As I already quoted 2013 anthro paper, sintashta group is similar to afanasievo(yamna) group, and andronovo source group is more primitive than those two groups, being more close to UP type.
    In other words, yamna seems to be not their ancestor anthropolically. Achaeologcally sintashta and andronovo people seems not to originate in west also.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...354#post538354 (post 45)

    Moreover, sintashta horse is genetically arctic horse like east scythian horse.

    I think all three factors of genetics, anthroplogy, and archaeology is inevitable even in genetics paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^^
    The andronovo anthro data can be proved by archaeology of east kazarstan tin bronze minging, early bronze age Dali cremation culture in inner asia mountain corridor.

    Moreover, R1a-z93 map is also consistent with the anthro data:
    1 day before the new Harvard research was published, I discussed IE south migration in Anthrogenica. Due to archaeoloy and anthro facts, I explained the migration of East Europe bronze to south aisa is impossible. The facts cannot be accepted to genetic lovers. Lastly I posted the following z93 map, and asked him whether this map is “ checkmate.” He replied “ are you soaking in salt?”




    This z93 map exactly matchs with the new migration map in the new research paper and Reich new book.
    As you see, the z93 people clusters around Inner asia mountain corridor, but rare around the 2 line from east yamna to altai. Why did it happen? Is it correct of z93 to migrate from East Europe to south asia thru central asia? Actually to me, the most important part is not R1a-z93, which might write Rigveda. Rigveda produced Hindu culture, which is extremely similar to mayan.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/03/bf...d395a75bae.jpg
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-down-pyramids


    Moreover, european cline is from EEF to CWC. I think it mean they seem to differenciate z282 group and z93 people.
    Have we reliable dates of this R1a-Z93 demographic increase? around 3000 BCE? the peri-Altai zone could be already a second stage with first founder effect? I avow I'm sceptical; an Y-R1a1 appeared already around Krasnoiarsk about the 3500 BCE, what does not imply it doesn't come from more western place : were the East ones already IE? Or have they been IE-ized a bit after? If IE was a kind of lingua franca perhaps already around 3000 BCE the transmission of language (bilinguism, maybe not so brutally a complete shift) was done comprising Y-R1a of both sorts and Y-R1b lineages for the most, maybe some other Y-lineages less numerous, whatever the first promotor of PIE - or we could suppose that only the last phases of BA transmitted IE to East Steppes under a satem form? so vaste are the possibilities ! Grigoryev considers Tokharians as promotoers of Okunevo C. and perhaps Afanasyevo:
    But here we are far from this very thread, centered on metrics, taxinomy, non-metrics (all bad?) and auDNA tools of knowing concerning Steppes moves and changes around BA/IA, aside archeology-

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    But here we are far from this very thread, centered on metrics, taxinomy, non-metrics (all bad?) and auDNA tools of knowing concerning Steppes moves and changes around BA/IA, aside archeology-
    Frankly to say, I consider three parts evenly, but I think the most important part is archaeology which explains culture especially of horse-mobile people. Basically they were heterogeneous. As you know, the basic rule of HG and nomad is exogamy. Regarding scythians, I learned that it would be impossible to identify them with anthro or auDNA with lots of Y dna unless we can find the oldest origin samples. They integrated with culture.

    Think about ottoman empire royals. Their queens were most of European and small number of caucasians. So most of royals had 99.83% european genes by some article. Even if they were pure europoids, they were not europeans. However, I am sure that they followed central asia nomad tradition.

    So, before Genetics and anthro, archaeology parts should be considered first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Frankly to say, I consider three parts evenly, but I think the most important part is archaeology which explains culture especially of horse-mobile people. Basically they were heterogeneous. As you know, the basic rule of HG and nomad is exogamy. Regarding scythians, I learned that it would be impossible to identify them with anthro or auDNA with lots of Y dna unless we can find the oldest origin samples. They integrated with culture.



    Think about ottoman empire royals. Their queens were most of European and small number of caucasians. So most of royals had 99.83% european genes by some article. Even if they were pure europoids, they were not europeans. However, I am sure that they followed central asia nomad tradition.

    So, before Genetics and anthro, archaeology parts should be considered first.
    I wrote aside archeology because to date archeology has been better studied and plus I'm not very knowledged in it (it's not modesty!) - this said, archeology, as well as traditional history based upon texts, is not 100% reliable, so if we can help with other tools: the matter is complicated: psychologically, culture (so in a big part archeology data) is important, but it's not without value to have some views about demography and migrations -
    it's true that what we find (with help of arhceology, BTW) concerning DNA, types, concern often selected people in the ancient societies, not always the basis of the pop; but let's not to forget some time dominant demic moves can be in the opposite direction of culture/ideas moves - bgi centers of cultural progress can be zincs more than demic source - it's maybe our problem with IE and Near-East/South Caucasus sometimes?
    I 'm interested but sometimes I wonder if we can approach with certainty the historical truth in some cases - it stays a play for me.

    &: concerning exogamy, it's proved, but maybe it concerns more high elite or "arrowheads" youth's band in quast of new lands than the great - majority - and we cannot always see it in the remannts we find -
    good evening

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    @Johen
    you showed abstracts:

    Interestingly, in western Truvinian sample, the frequency of haplogroup R1a1a was considerably
    lower than in the central sample. Based on the closeness of the Altai, which is populated by the representatives of a more Caucasoid SouthSiberian racial
    type,
    it would be reasonable to expect the west–east decrease of the R1a1a frequency on the territory of Tuva. However, this was not observed, and the change of the haplogroup frequency was rather the opposite, as the eastern samples demonstrated maximum frequency of this haplogroup. At the first glance, the result obtained is paradoxical. Specifically, in terms of anthropology, the most Caucasoid population of the western parts of Tuva displays the minimum of haplogroup R1a1a, while in the most Mongoloid population of Todja, the maximum of this haplogroup is observed.

    +
    Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid

    Have we the other Y-haplos of the Western part of Tuva pops? some first Y-R1a bearers could have been staying a longer time as 'scouts' or 'prospectors' or 'arrow-heads' in contact with 'east-asians' in the easternmost parts (responsible of eastern mt-DNA) ? Have you Y-haplos of Pazyryk people? (I found 1 or 2, not more)
    that said, Scythian culture eclosion seems linked with Altay and mixed population on an Iranic basis, with aspects linked to cold countries - but concerning physical aspect (DNA and phenotypes) the late Scythians were an uneven mix according to regions, mix dominated averywhere by ancien IE steppic tribes close enough to Srubnaya and others, and the auDNA studied for the most of tribes show on PCA an heterogenous sketche : all Scythians seem on a cline between Pathans (Bactrian on the road) and Finns and Balts with a very slight shift towards Chuvashs ; western Scythians closer to North Europe, eastern Scythians closer to Bactrian, Sarmatians in between, but a bit shifted towards North Caucasians so the eastern Scythians, if born in Altay, are in debt to South-Central Asia pops on their way towards

    the civilised world ; surely they took new cultural influences here and there on their way ; ATW this cline is impressive by its length, tribes are spred far away one from another on this PCA ; if we change perspective, we could think Chuvashes in despite of their language are closer to the early Scythes who later mixed with more bactrianlike people in East tribes and more with east-europeanlike people (West Steppes) in West tribes ; this does not mean Chuvashes are descended from Scythes for the most, but that their today admixture is close enough, whatever the history and coincidences which led to this today result -

    Spite of their within tribe variances, Kozintsev thinks there were noticeable anthropological difference even if not too strong between Forrest-Steppes groups of Scythians and Steppes groups of Scythians; according to Kozintsev a common element would have been the Srubna people and maybe other ones of same IE origin; but has the distinction between two kinds of Steppes something in common with the distinction between their longitude ?

    Its evident that more time passed, less distinguishable were the demic historical events as the admixture were accumulated on preceding admixtures of roughly same parent pops, at the physical anthropological level at least, helas for us -

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    @Moesan
    1. Lebrok provided a very good data. I think Armenoid type appeared at late bronze as the data shows. As far as I know, any anthropologists don't know where the armenoid type come from, especially the armenoid nose. Yes, Sumer people also had that nose as you know. They said that bedouin is original local people at the area, but that nose at all. The most important thing is at similar time, same types of people appeared at whole Eurasia, including Hittie, and even china.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    See, Armenia had pretty violent history. Here is the chart telling it. First is CHG, the second one is Armenian Farmer of Early Bronze Age. We can see it he is very similar to CHG but with additional admixtures of Iranian and Anatolian Farmers.
    Next two point to drastic changes Armenia went through during Bronze Age. The telling sign is sharp rise of North East Euro admixture. The closest source was Bronze Age Steppe, therefore Steppe invasion through Caucase.
    The big surprise is that Modern Armenians don't have much of NE Euro left. They look surprisingly like EBA Armenian before Steppe invasion. It looks like the all the late BA Armenians, possibly the communities extensively mixed with IEs, left the area or were wiped out, and "original" Armenians took over once again.

    M603839 M536324 I1658 M691697 RISE407 Modern
    Kotias CHG 8 KYA Armenia EBA Armenia LBA Armenian
    Run time 13.98 Run time 8.22 Run time 3.92 Run time
    S-Indian 0.62 S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian 1
    Baloch 36.63 Baloch 25.53 Baloch 28.22 Baloch 20
    Caucasian 54.15 Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 30.75 Caucasian 52
    NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 24.77 NE-Euro 3
    SE-Asian 0.59 SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.77 Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.15 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American 1.54 American
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 6.98 Mediterranean 10
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 6.38 SW-Asian 13
    San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.25 Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 3.01 W-African 0.33 W-African 1.36 W-African
    2. So far, I have had no data, but I think the size of dinaric type, armenoid type, Pamir-Ferghana types including andronovo proper, ancient greek at bronze age is more bigger than gracile or massive yamna bronze. According to Dr. Brace, the bronze Greek is so close to cromagnon type. Probably EHG (short, broad face but upper facial flatness) would be close to cromagnon, having similar size as bronze-age dinaric type, armenoid type, Pamir-Ferghana types including andronovo proper, ancient greek. Actually my point here is skull size than skull shape. UP skull is larger than early bronze. But I think the larger skull appeared at mid or late bronze again, even if kurgan bronze in Crimea already became mediterranean type according to Dr. Brace.




    china bronze



    armenoid


    andronovo proper (Pamir-Ferghana type)
    [img]
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...lIsmagulov.gif[/img]



    I have located the text of George Panagiaris important 1993 doctoral thesis on Greek skeletal material. This may be one of the most comprehensive efforts to study the Ancient Greek population from a physical anthropological perspective (413 male and 354 female crania, using 65 biometric characters as well odontological traits). Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.

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    Johen:
    this thread is made to may split hairs a bit; so come on, with pleasure:
    - 'armenoid' type skull would be an artificial result, not a variant of 'dinaric' according to someones - (we could suppose the deformation followed a model where a crossing involving 'dinarics' and others gave way to a similar natural type at some % in the pop, but I have not clue here, it's speculation; cranial deformations may be based upon some model, lately exaggerated if they corresponded to some class ideal...
    - No, this 'ferghana' type is by far too 'dinaric-like' if not pure 'dinaric' (I suppose it's a component among today Tadjiks) so too high faced to be typical for the Andronovo mean - it's plainly brachycephalic, what I think was not the case with the Andronovo mean, where the so called 'cromagnoid' or 'proto-europoid' type was rather dolicho-mesocephalic, and always with rather broad face and low orbits; the deviation of Andronovo mean compared to other Steppic people is that it was more meso, and lower/broader faced and with lower orbits, nothing on the way to 'dinaric'; the explanation would be in an apport of the 'western-siberian HG' type, which became preponderant in Okunevo according to scholars (I lack models) - I don't exclude that also some input of this 'western-siberian HG' type existed in SW-Central Asia between Meso- and Neolithic... so infuence too upon Tadjiks - maybe since Neolithical times in BMAC region - by the way, some described 'brachy's' in Northern Near-East appeared around the 2000/1500 BCE are considered bt someones as different from 'alpine' and from 'typical 'dinaric', and they had voluminous skulls; could it be an input from these 'ferghana' types?
    - BTW European 'dinarics', even high statured, have as a rule small skulls, smaller than the 'alpine' type!!!
    - - the brachycephals in Pindus monts left strong input in the recent pops of Western Greece (Epirus) ; today it seems its a mix where come in first place alpine and dinaric types Coon thought the dinaric types appeared in Balkans from North around Bronze Age ; I dont know ; some brachycephals were already signaled in Central Western Balkans in Middle Neolithic but these mentions are without any detail of feature in Europeans, brachycephaly is among other factors linked by some scholars to altitude and remoteness from sea and iodine ; all the way, it seems a reaction depending of genetic background and not by force replicable in every pop and we see remanent differences between 'alpine' and 'dinaric' so ... -

    - the brachycephals in Pindus monts left strong input in the recent pops of Western Greece (Epirus) ; today it seems its a mix where come in first place alpine and dinaric types Coon thought the dinaric types appeared in Balkans from North around Bronze Age ; I dont know ; some brachycephals were already signaled in Central Western Balkans in Middle Neolithic but these mentions are without any detail of feature in Europeans, brachycephaly is among other factors linked by some scholars to altitude and remoteness from sea and iodine ; all the way, it seems a reaction depending of genetic background and not by force replicable in every pop -

    These brachy's of West-Siberia Neolithic (Krasnoyarks region) of 'west-siberia-HG' stock are intriguing me; I know 'cromagnoids' could have undergone a brachycephalization process in Western Europe with diverse features according to the 'cromagnoid' element in cause (more 'cromagnon' or 'more 'brn') but the massiveness of the face could be inherited by crossing with this 'west-siberian-HG' (or 'proto-uralic'); by the way our 'borreby's are less brachy than the 'alpine' and more high and heavy in body, and do'nt seem formed in situ in North Europe where Mesolithic descendants were rather short (1m65/66 in North, as short as 1m55 on Atlantic) and they seem appearing about the 3000 BCE; nd they re very often very depigmented, maybe by accumulation of two or more mutations - Coon has signaled some tendancies for light pigmentation (hairs-eyes-skin) aong brachy's of Northern Italy, the same has been signaled in Lebanonand Syrie (lighters, most brachy's) - is this due to a penetration of this siberian element among others during the Bronze Age? already HG's of Scandinavian showed some 'est-asian' or so called input maybe in association with ligh pigmentation - today, Nortwestern Finns show often the lightest pigmentation for hair and eyes, far before Scandinavians and Germans; and Slavs show this tendancy among their blonds, spite they have as a whole less blonds than the Germanics - the 'borreby' input (OK surely a mix, but with defined elements)is associated with straight rigid (coarse) hair and light blond, long trunk short legs; before I thought the whity blond was caused by a specific gene; in fact it could be the result of cumul of more than a mutation, one of them at least inherited from 'nordics', dolicho people of remote 'mediterranean' origin, living between Carpathians and Baltic/Ladoga, at the western vicinity of the Western Siberians and of the more southern 'proto-europoids' of the Steppes; I associated blondism to a pure 'caucasian' condition at first, now I think same mesologic conditions could have favoured depigmenting mutations among diverse pops whatever the origin... if more than a mutation, the spreading of depigmentation did not need everytime inter-pops contacts, but if these contacts occurred there and more than 1 mutation found job, the result could be a deeper depigmentation; to be proved!
    the question remains: as these mutations are not 100% and not evenly distributed among the same origin people, it makes hard to use it with precision for inter-pops historical movs/crossings; it remains a tool, but an unprecise one -

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    I think our 'borreby's are a big-mix in fact and show individualy diverse tendancies in shape linked to their dominant element, whatever the CI index (the ancient 'cromagnoid' and 'brnnoid' phenotypical elements of West and Center, already mixed since Paleo) could be associated to 'proto-uralic' elements in diverse amounts): maybe a gradiant between Germanics, Slavs and NW Finns...
    the mixture could have been begun soon enough and be gradual, so uneasy to link to an historical/cultural peculiar event - that said, the apparition of 'borrevy' in West is recent and linked to metals ages (in Denmark around 2500 BCE: not far from the BB phenomenon in North); it's better than nothing at all; surely linked to a new source of bracchycephals apparently distinct from the 'alpine' ones which seems based upon a sort of foetalization of southwestern 'cromagnoids' begun around 8000/6000 BCE -

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    this slight 'proto-uralic' element could be linked to some roughly said '(north)-east-asian' autosomes which appear regularly among Steppics pops

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    New data has shed light on the interaction between the steppe pastoralists and the sedentary farmers. Cranial series from the southern regions of Central Asia, representing populations where the features of agricultural and pastoral cultures are combined (Kokcha III, Buston VI, Karaelematasai, and Patmasai, Djarkutan), have been clearly located between typical farmers (Hasanlu, Gonur, Mohendjo Daro, Pakistani Timargarha and Butkara) and series from the territory of Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and the Volga-Ural region. At the same time, Gonur skulls, from the necropolis situated in and around ruins of early buildings, and the Buston VI series, as well as those from later layers of Tepe Hissar in Iran, have been identified as having large transversal dimensions while maintaining the same height-sizes of traits of subjects uncovered from earlier periods at the same monuments. This might be connected primarily to the general brachicephalization processes manifested at that time. But it is also likely that this was the result of a gradual penetration of groups from the Eurasian Steppe to the south, which was initially random but then became increasingly common with frequent mating between steppe groups and farmers. The term infiltration best characterizes this process of mixing. It should be noted that the currently available archaeological materials from Gonur Depe reveal that around such major proto-urban centers (which Gonur was at the end of the 3rd-2nd millennium BC) already by the middle of the 2nd millennium BC herders were indigenous, as evidenced by small settlements of cattle breeders in the vicinity of the city walls (see for example: Hiebert & Moore, 2004; Cattani, 2004). In addition, separate (sporadic) steppe pottery fragments have been unearthed from some areas of the site and its surrounding smaller settlements (Sarianidi & Dubova, 2010, pp. 39-42). However, we must particularly emphasize that at Gonur (i.e., in Southern Turkmenistan) manifestations of minimal impurities in anthropological components, which could be linked to pastoral surroundings, were not seen prior to the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.

    Another important point to bear in mind is that in the southern regions of Central Asia there were no Bronze Age sites (or earlier ones), where the presence of the so-called Protoeuropean anthropological type (a massive variant with a large sized head, low and wide face, rectangular orbits, and with a flattening of the upper part of the face) was fixed. This variant has only been described by researchers in the northern regions of Central Asia. The groups with a small proportion of the Paleoeuropeoid anthropological component in their composition reached southern regions in the Bronze Age. The most prevalent among them still being the Mediterranean type. Such a situation, of course, leads to an increase in mixed populations (i.e., in later groups including those of the Iron Age) with the characteristics presented in both groups becoming increasingly mixed (e.g. Mediterranean traits).


    Dubova N.A., Junusbayev S.M., Saipov A.B., Interaction between Steppe and Agricultural Tribes during the Bronze Age:

    an abstract of a metrics craniology paper:

    to be discussed later:

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think our 'borreby's are a big-mix in fact and show individualy diverse tendancies in shape linked to their dominant element, whatever the CI index (the ancient 'cromagnoid' and 'br�nnoid' phenotypical elements of West and Center, already mixed since Paleo) could be associated to 'proto-uralic' elements in diverse amounts): maybe a gradiant between Germanics, Slavs and NW Finns...
    the mixture could have been begun soon enough and be gradual, so uneasy to link to an historical/cultural peculiar event - that said, the apparition of 'borrevy' in West is recent and linked to metals ages (in Denmark around 2500 BCE: not far from the BB phenomenon in North); it's better than nothing at all; surely linked to a new source of bracchycephals apparently distinct from the 'alpine' ones which seems based upon a sort of foetalization of southwestern 'cromagnoids' begun around 8000/6000 BCE -
    Moesan I'm curios what could be the effect on the pop of NW Europe (NW Germany and North Dutch) of the Bronze Age Unetice culture derived Sögel Wohlde phase.

    Although I really despise the ideas of the archeologist Sprockhoff (they were really some kind of Nordicist) he produced some maps about the Bronze Age that signifies the role of the nowadays called Elp culture for the Northern Lowlands and NW Germany.....they present some findings (which as such are of course 'neutral').


    Sprockhoff (1941)


    - findings of Kümmerkeramik:



    - findings of Sögel swords:



    - findings of EBA axes with bent edge



    All together they represent a Unetice derived Bronze age Elp Culture! That must have left a ("proto-Celtic") genetic footprint in nowadays population of NW Germany and North Dutch.

    The Bell Beakers that were already present in these area's had a high Steppe component, according to Haak (2014):

    This second resurgence must have started during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age period itself, as the Bell Beaker and Unetice groups had reduced Yamnaya ancestry compared to the earlier Corded Ware, and comparable levels to that in some present-day Europeans (Fig. 3).
    Some impressions from Maciamo:

    On the other hand, ancient DNA confirmed that, circa 2000 BCE, new immigrants to Britain and Ireland who were almost undistinguishable genetically from Unetice people from Central Europe. Modern Irish, Scots and Welsh have the highest percentage of Gedrosian admixture in Europe today and, although Haak et al. only analysed Scots, apparently also the highest percentage of Yamna-like admixture with Norwegians (and presumably Icelanders, who, like the Norwegians, have a relatively high percentage of ancestry from Ireland and Scotland from the Viking Age, especially on the maternal side). The Scots and Irish also happen to have the highest percentage of combined Celto-Germanic R1a (L664 and Z283 subclades) and R1b (P312 and U106), and therefore the highest percentage of patrilineal Yamna ancestry.


    An expansion of Unetice to the north and west gave birth to the Proto-Germanic branch (R1b-U106), which mixed with the indigenous populations of northern Germany and the Netherlands, notably I2a2a-L801 (descended from Mesolithic Europeans) and R1a-Z283 (descended from the Corded Ware culture), but also with a minority of Neolithic lineages (G2a, E-M78, T1a, etc.). From 1700 BCE, R1b-U106 people penetrated into Scandinavia, where they blended with the local I1 and R1a-Z283 population
    And Cassidy (2016):
    However, a large shift in genetic variation is seen between Ballynahatty and the three Irish Early Bronze Age samples, Rathlin1, Rathlin2, and Rathlin3, who fall in a separate central region of the graph along with Unetice and other Early Bronze Age genomes from Central and North Europe. These plots imply that ancient Irish genetic affinities segregate within European archaeological horizons rather than clustering geo- graphically within the island.
    What's your impression of the effect on the 'pop' from the Unetice and the mixture with the 'indigenous' people in NW Germany and North Dutch during EBA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Another important point to bear in mind is that in the southern regions of Central Asia there were no Bronze Age sites (or earlier ones), where the presence of the so-called Protoeuropean anthropological type(a massive variant with a large sized head, low and wide face, rectangular orbits, and with a flattening of the upper part of the face)was fixed. This variant has only been described by researchers in the northern regions of Central Asia. The groups with a small proportion of the Paleoeuropeoid anthropological component in their composition reached southern regions in the Bronze Age.
    Dubova N.A., Junusbayev S.M., Saipov A.B., Interaction between Steppe and Agricultural Tribes during the Bronze Age:

    an abstract of a metrics craniology paper:
    1. Samples of the first group include yamna/afanasievo series, andronovo series, okuneo, east scythian series, okunevo, karakol, and seima turbino series. But they identified two major, not three. So which group does modern european belong to?

    Abstract
    Here we discuss the results of research conducted on the variability of anthropological features of the populations of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, China, etc., from the Late Stone Age and Bronze Age. A detailed analysis was carried out on 85 craniological series from burial grounds at Gonur and Buston VI (see Table 1). We examined skulls from the steppe, forest-steppe, desert, and semi-desert areas of Central Asia, Ural, Siberia and the North Caucasus.
    As a result, we identified two major anthropological groups: the first comprising North Kazakhstan, South Siberia, Altai, and Ural-Volga, populations with larger latitudinal proportions of the head and face, as well as a smaller width of the forehead, upper face height, and height of the nose; and the second comprising the southern territories, including the majority of the populations of Iran, Pakistan, the Indus valley, and the southern regions of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan as well, who had the opposite combination of features: long and narrow heads, high, narrow faces and noses, and round orbits.
    The analysis conducted has enabled us to affirm that Southern Turkmenistan manifestations of minimal impurities with regard to anthropological components, which could be linked to pastoral surroundings, were not seen prior to the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.
    2. They did not mention which sample is the large skull proto-europoid. The central asia proto-europid would be Andronovo proper and ancient pamir type in my post above, which is not related with yamna, afanasievo, sintashta, but yamna ancetor. The description of proto-europid is exactly same as EHG, as I said several times. Probably andronov proper would be similar to EHG including size.

    2013 research:
    Culturally, they were associated with Afanesyev, Timbergrave (Srubnaya), and Tazabagyab cultures, with the Andronovo (Alakul) culture of western Kazakhstan, and with the Sintashta-like culture of Potapovka. Morphologically, this cluster is intermediate between the “Andronovo proper” (Proto-European) cluster and the “Mediterranean” cluster. Accordingly, the “intermediate” cluster includes both Proto-European and Mediterranean series.
    3. okunevo or botai (intermedite) looks like having the same type large skull. The major difference between okunevo type and proto-europid is face flatness: horizontal flat or upper facial flatness. What if they mixed with a small portion of med with small skull? I think the mixed one would be pure caucasoid with a large skull.

    All Botaya skulls are large, have a characteristic horizontal Flatness in the front part, which is also noted in some ancient Finds of Western Siberia (Protoka & Sopka-2), the steppe Urals (Gladunino-3), Western Kazakhstan (Shoktybai, Kumsai, Zhirenkopa, Ishkinovka), the Eastern Kazakhstan (Shiderty, Zhelezinka, Ust-Narymsky, Rough II), and the Northern Turkmenistan (Tumek-Kichidzhik / Priaralye). Thus the Botany skulls Represent a separate anthropological type, formed in the steppe Part of Asia during the Eneolithic period - "Kazakh steppe type".
    Last edited by johen; 27-04-18 at 19:22. Reason: add more information

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    first answer
    @Johen
    I dont know what you call Modern Europeans - modern, OK ; Europeans: western and central ones ?
    - This study is a metric one, so, cumulative measures on an axis and on another, without individual research of typology or shapes the result is that the author found some relative homogeneity within and and between Steppes tribes of North Central Asia as opposed to relative different homogeneity within and between BMAC pops of the pre- and early metals ages ; the results are that she shows a change between 2000 and 1500 BCE in the BMAC region in the pop, distinguishable thanks to the neat enough mean differecnes between previous Steppes and BMAC pops ; change we may put on the account of a steppic tribes introgression into South, even if not overwhelming but rather moderate and maybe progressive -
    - this could be put in relation with auDNA modifications in the same period -
    - this kind of metric survey cannot witness for phenotypical types because it speaks of global population and not of supposed earlier elements taking part in the population genesis ; it compares only means, for the most so, taking as basis two pops, it speaks only of two pops -
    - this notion of pops is arbitrary as well as the notion of type, but s based on chronologic and geographical criteria ;
    - if your tracking modern Europeans origins here, it depends on the depth of your exigences : phenotypical types or basic autosomals groups as defined by mainstream studies? Phenotypically, Europeans, as they are at the autosomal level, are a mix of several groups or groupings roughly said, they share almost the same basis but in different proportions -
    - they cannot be reduced to one of the two groups of pops present in this study ; autosomatically they share in diverse proportions steppe and EEF (very close to anatolian ANF first mediters ) + some elements of WHG but steppe is a compound of CHG + EHG cousins of WHG and CHG is cousin to the basis of the BMAC pop as a whole, as I know you know - ancient pops speaking it seems according to scholars that today Europeans are principally the result of a cumul of waves like this : WHG (rather limited in number), EEF farmers (numerous enough) and Steppes herders (numerous enough too), % depending on places, + some Anatolians carrying ANF and CHG - spite formed of CHGlike (much) and ANFlike (litttle) people, historically speaking we cannot say our Europeans have BMAC distinguishable input its a question of historical common sense, spite we can say we share some % of common ancestors more remotely in time -
    - on the typologic side, visible phenotypical traits evolving sometimes faster than global auDNA, Europeans of today are very more diverse in their crossings and cannot be reduced to two or even three groups BTW this study conclusion does not go into individual details but concerning within homogeneity of both groups, we can be sure that Steppes tribes were rather similar but far to be identical in space and time by instance some metric traits are close between WSHG (proto-uralic) and proto-europoids spite shapes were different in details, and the input of southern pops were visible too in diverse proportions among Steppes tribes -
    To do short, Europeans have little in common with ancient BMAC people, and uniquely by older ancestots, and are also not so close to the Steppes mean, except in Northern Europe -
    - at the phenotypical level, this study fails (by definition ; as its aim seems being elsewhere) to show the proximity of some steppic pops with Northwestern and Central Euroepean ChalcoEBA pops, proximity not discarded by autosomals studies -

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    JOhen , I think I red to quickly your post which deserves more precise answers (whatever their value) concerning differences between some sites taken as a whole as 'steppic'; Okunevo,by instance, is culturally "steppic european",but phenotypcially and autosomally proto-uralic, descendant ofr the most of WSHG's.
    I 'll try to post something readable -
    @Northerner: I think in your post which is a bit off topic bit I' ll try to answer it too -
    I go to bed - Mont a ran d' am' gwele - I ga aan bed? Ik ga te slapen? (not sure!)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Northerner
    fuzzy question relatively far from the phenotypical aspect:
    - concerning Yamna autosomal it could depend on studies ; but I think it is not true today Irish or Scottish and even Icelandic people have the maximum of Yamna auDNA in Europe ; it would be rather Northeastern Europe (S-E Baltic) and some Russian pops which have it -
    - as said above, BBC had rather less Yamna auDNA than had CWC, as a mean ; and we have to keep in mind BBC were more heterogenous than CWC for auDNA at the individual level, even the ones of the same region as in Germany ; on PCAs its very clear; concerning BBs of Ireland and Britain they were more Northwest oriented perhaps ?
    - concerning Y-haplos I dont know what have Maciamo at hand today, but the few haplos I saw some months ago in Anthrogenica concerning Unetice were all of them Y-I something
    - for physical aspect (old anthropo and non-metrics) it seems Unetice pop means were closer to CWC than to BBC -
    - but we speak of means here, I dont know if the Y-I bearers of Unetice were representative of an average pop or of a specific minority, because Unetice at first seems having been a multi-ethnic aggregate (local sinc as well as exporter) -
    - concerning Y-R1b-U106 & sons I dont know, I only suppose this lineage wintered sometime South the Baltic sea, and, maybe still, could have been an important clan in the rich tumuli culture of East Germany in debt to Unetice for culture you know more than me concerning this North-Western culture illustrated by the two maps, but yes, I would have become a stronghold of Y-R1b-U106 at some stage BBs stationed there some span of time, but they did not become the heavier demic element there (they were R-P312 rather, and the strongest regions for these lineages are rather in the Southern Netherlands and southwesternmost region, and I think the most of the P312 ought more to Celts than to first BBCs, spite it does not exclude the BBs part) I think megalithics influenced FBC/TRBK in the Northern Netherlands left some demic input too and some Y-I2a2 -
    -for Y-I1 I think it was already rovering from southern shores of the North Sea to the East Baltic southern ones, but I have no ready-to-use explanation for their demographic explosion ; maybe it took place in South Scandinavia with help of agriculture but the explosion could rather be due to the contacts with more than an IE tribe there with skills in metallurgy and after the mix R1a-R1b-I1 took more strength yet and expanded towards every direction? Maciamo thinks the boom could

    have begun earlier after contacts with central Europe LBK people ; I dont know, but the msot of the Y-lineages found around at LN are first Y-I2a2 then Y-I2a1, not too much Y-I1, so ?...
    - but Y-I1 seems a strange exception to the expansion of LN-BA tribes under an Y-haplo monopole-like model ; maybe this model was already living its last years ? I dont know ; or before later integration these post-Neolthic autochtonous lineages were tolered at the mergins, bearing posterity without the honours of first rank elites ?
    - I m tempted to separate Y-R1b-P312 from Y-R1a concerning the Isles bit I confes Im short concerning the very subclades of Y-R1a present there ; I have only a general picture and what it tells me is that the most of Y-R1a there is from Vikings, more than from continental Germanics and of course more than from Celts R1a→Z283→L664 in Britain seems (according to fora) to be of Viking origin but at these caldes were among CWC in N-E Germany too : no opposition because its the CWC R1a lineages which passed to Scandinavia, some of them already before numerous R1b-U106 and Y-I1 without to be too affirmative, to date I dont link any Y-R1a to BBs or Celts, not at a noticeable level (but some Round Barrows BBs of S-W England seemed to show some not too mixed CWC demic input, and some auDNA runs would show some links between today Ireland and CWC DNA : I stay puzzled here (?) -
    - today a lot of Y-I2a2 are linked to Germanics, but before the recent enough fusion of diverse elements in Germanics, these people could have been extensions of ONE Unetice element in search of metals ores, in Harz region by instance ? Or at the contrary they were in Unetice an input of marginal elements integrated in CWC ? - we need more Y-haplos in Unetice and Y-I2a2 samples dating of before Lusacian/Untrut culture in this hotspot of Harz - and what links with British megalithic Y-I2a2 surely involved in TRBK ? Here again, I lack samples (TRBK) and subclades (Isles) -
    - to make a very evasive conclusion I would say that its hard to weight the real demic input of Unetice, aside its cultural input I think it is not the very population of Unetice which peopled N-W Germany/the Netherlands and mixed with MLN (so partly Mesolithic) people there its rather western CWC and Rich Tumuli people who made the most of the work and I forget the IA people coming from somewhere around Hallstatt who reached Denmark (IA Celts? akin to Teutons and Cimbers ?) - only personal thought the auDNA admixture in Unetice was close to the near places around : it was a beginning of homogeneization of diverse pops there but the Yamna input stayed strong enough there where it became weaker among the homogeneization of Celts in post-BB lands -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    However, we must particularly emphasize that at Gonur (i.e., in Southern Turkmenistan) manifestations of minimal impurities in anthropological components, which could be linked to pastoral surroundings, were not seen prior to the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.Another important point to bear in mind is that in the southern regions of Central Asia there were no Bronze Age sites (or earlier ones), where the presence of the so-called Protoeuropean anthropological type (a massive variant with a large sized head, low and wide face, rectangular orbits, and with a flattening of the upper part of the face) was fixed.
    Archaeology proves that Andronovo proper on 1,800bc, had the large head. So this one is not an Alakul, but Fedorovo.

    (Off topic, they went from altai to IAMC. Rob thought that afanasievo would have R1a, but I bet on okunevo, which had third eye culture like India, fire worship, votan concept(odin, wotan, indra w/ thunderbolt), their petroglyphs near swat valley, R1a-z93 scythian culture in their orgin, chariot incubated, and their astronomy to be continued in andronovo)
    Chetan said... Some early Andronovo groups appeared in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan by 1700 BCE(?). https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...Y8B2AQ6AEIcjAN We can know infer that these groups took the IAMC path from the Siberia/Altai region. The origin of both branches of Indo-Aryans would be from these groups.
    Atriðr said... @Chetan We can know infer that these groups took the IAMC path from the Siberia/Altai region. The origin of both branches of Indo-Aryans would be from these groups. This has been, and is still my position (with reservations)... @Rob That would require travelling via Afansievo culture Perhaps some Afansievo were R1a? ...which would require to find R1a. Without R1a, then yeah, falls apart.
    Actually I want to know what type of skull the Ferghana Valley is. I think this one also seems to be just a typical large pamir-Ferghana skull or andronovo proper, or sintashta ancestor.
    Davidski [email protected]ðr

    Perhaps some Afansievo were R1a?...which would require to find R1a. Without R1a, then yeah, falls apart.

    It doesn't fall apart because the Kashkarchi_BA samples from the Ferghana Valley are identical to Sintashta and belong to R1a-Z645.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Northerner
    Excuse me for Y-I2a2 in Untrut Harz: it was a specific lineages rather linked to more southern Celtic regions, and so the presence there of it's upstream SNP bearers at LN/EBA is very undertain - I knew it, but the age!
    I 'll try to gather mor about the clades of I2a2 in Western and Central-East Europe - Perhaps have you them already?
    goeden avond

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