Substantiating German heritage

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Boeck

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I have some ancestry that is known to be German, 4 great great grandparents were born in Germany, and I also have a great grandmother from Austria-Sudetenland Czech border which could be German blood also, maybe, possibly. How can I tell if they are real German folk or just people born in Germany and German lands? I want to be able to prove that I have a certain percentage of German ancestry. I have proved 2 great great grandparents have deep roots into Germany, but not the other 2. I know they were born in Germany Pomerania but I havent been able to locate a birth record, just census records and a passenger list that says they came from Pommern.

How would I be able to determine how much authentic Deutsch blood I have? How do I know my German ancestry is from Germans of deep rooted Germanic/European ancestry and not foreigners, such as Jews?
 
“Authentic Deutsch blood”, well I mean that’s kinda out the door now even if you do prove 4 out of 16 of your ancestors were 100%, that would leave you 25%. I would look to achievements of your ancestors rather than which regional boundaries they ended up behind. Even if your goal here were racial, nation tells you only a small amount of information, region a bit more but even then none of that speaks to their individual genetic profile which can only be ascertained with certainty by testing them all.

I have a shovel, you dig, I’ll be lookout.

EDIT: Two of them being from Pomerania (the same region of some of my ancestors) and coming out of “nowhere” suggests to me they were likely natives of Pomerania. “Natives” were primarily a mix of the Western end of the common Baltic substrate, ancient North Sea immigration variously, some ancient Germanic migrations, ancient Slavic migrations, ancient Celtic migrations, more modern Germanic immigrations and very likely some Slavic ancestry via Kashubian or Northern Polish. The hints will be in the surnames... many Kashubian surnames are somewhat unique but the Slavicized Germanic surnames will be very obvious. Other clues might be common first names in the family etc.
 
Razib Khan did some stuff on this that might help:

"Anyone who has looked at German data realizes that it is very difficult to identify a ‘prototypical’ German. Germans are people who speak Germanic languages, whose ancestors out of the European Bronze Age, when much of Northern European population structure was established. But being at the center of Europe means that Germans have been subject to gene flow by peoples to from all other directions. Also, some ethnic Germans in the eastern regions clearly descend from Slavic tribes, and more recently there were migrations of peoples such as French Huguenots.A PCA of Danes, English, French, and Germans, show differences across the groups. But Germans overlap a great deal with the English, and a substantial minority overlap with Danes. Also, many more of the Germans are “French-shifted” than the English.
The point is that to be German is to be many things. At least in the context of Northern European peoples."


Germanic.png

Germany-1.jpg




LINK 1: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017...are-not-cons-part-2-the-problem-of-ethnicity/

LINK 2: https://blog.insito.me/germans-in-the-middle-of-europe-and-in-the-middle-of-ancestry-66568b44d6f6
 
The goal is racial, they could be mixed with Polish or Slavic, as can be said about many Germans within Germany boundaries not including Eastern territories but all I care for now is that they are European.
I have DNA test genetic profiles from several family members. My mom's family including her mom and three of her siblings, and my paternal grandfather.
 
Do your Gedmatch/DNA.LAND/Ancestry/23andme results suggest overwhelming European ancestry?
 
My mom at Ancestry has 98% European, 1% Caucasus, 1% West Asia

At 23andme 99.9-100% European as do all 3 of her siblings (they didn't test at Ancestry)

Which GEDMATCH test is the most informative?
 
You have your answer there. If you are looking for more information on those Pomeranian ancestors for the purposes of documentation, you should try to contact the people who might have access to those records or hire a genealogist if it proves too daunting.
 
Boeck said:
I have DNA test genetic profiles from several family members. My mom's family including her mom and three of her siblings, and my paternal grandfather.
Click to expand...

What is the % of German ancestry of each of your family members based on genealogical records?
 
Boeck said:
How would I be able to determine how much authentic Deutsch blood I have? How do I know my German ancestry is from Germans of deep rooted Germanic/European ancestry and not foreigners, such as Jews?
Click to expand...

As for Pomerania & Pomerelia, Jewish is unlikely, because they were a small percent.

3 thousand Jews in Pomerania in 1819:

qSvovhZ.png


13 thousand Jews in West Prussia in 1819:

fu22ApF.png
 
West Prussia (this includes Eastern Pomerania / Pomerelia) in 1819:

Poles ---------- 327,300 (52%)
Germans ----- 277,350 (44%)
Mennonites ---- 12,650 (2%)
Jews ----------- 12,700 (2%)

Mennonites in West Prussia had Dutch, Flemish and Frisian origins.

But German sources counted Mennonites as part of Germans.

Later they also started counting Jews as Germans, but not in 1819.

================

And Pommern in 1819:

Germans --------------------- 633,000
Wends and Kashubians ----- 165,000
Jews --------------------------- 2,976

In West Prussia Kashubians were counted among Poles, in Pommern as a distinct group.

In Pommern Kashubians were Lutherans, in West Prussia they were Roman Catholics.
 
Ancestors from Pomerania might plot like Poles, shifted West a bit maybe. Pomeranians were cultural Germans, not genetic.
Not that their is one common mold for a genetic German. More like a spectrum.
Ashkenazi Jews genetically are 70% European, 30% Middle Eastern.
 
LeBrok said:
Pomeranians were cultural Germans, not genetic.
Click to expand...

I have several GEDmatch kits of Pomeranian Germans. They are like a mix of Slavic + Scandinavian. But I think there are regional differences (some parts of Pomerania were more Slavic than others). I don't have enough kits to determine which parts are which.

But I think that it doesn't follow a smooth west-east cline.

I think that Central Pomeranians are the most Germanic genetically, while both West and East are more Slavic-influenced. East Pomerania was actually inhabited by Kashubians. In West Pomerania everyone was speaking German, but they had largely Slavic DNA.
 
Tomenable said:
I have several GEDmatch kits of Pomeranian Germans. They are like a mix of Slavic + Scandinavian. But I think there are regional differences (some parts of Pomerania were more Slavic than others). I don't have enough kits to determine which parts are which.

But I think that it doesn't follow a smooth west-east cline.

I think that Central Pomeranians are the most Germanic genetically, while both West and East are more Slavic-influenced. East Pomerania was actually inhabited by Kashubians. In West Pomerania everyone was speaking German, but they had largely Slavic DNA.
Click to expand...

Yup, more Germanic language speakers are “non-Germanic” than “Germanic” and great swaths of “Slavs” are Germanic and Mediterranean racially. At some point somebody from Leon who is 27% Suebi ancestry magically counts as less “Germanic” than an “Anglo-Saxon” who is actually 43% “Celt,” 32% British HG, and 12% Roman... and then we get to the point where this matters outside of greater historical understanding when?
 
Tomenable said:
What is the % of German ancestry of each of your family members based on genealogical records?
Click to expand...


My mother has two great grandparents from Nordrhein-Westfalen Germany.

If you consider the Austria-Sudetenland Czech border ancestor German, which would be my great grandmother, mom is 50% German. I think for the most part those folks have a mix of Germanic and Slavic heritage. She lived in a small village of 400- something inhabitants near the Austrian border.

Paternal grandpa should be 50% German (paternal grandparents from Pomerania)
 
Boeck said:
Paternal grandpa should be 50% German (paternal grandparents from Pomerania)
Click to expand...

Can you post his Eurogenes K36 results? Also what is the other 50% of his ancestry?
 
Get your Y-DNA tested because it would be very interesting for you I'm sure.
 
Tomenable said:
Can you post his Eurogenes K36 results? Also what is the other 50% of his ancestry?
Click to expand...

K36 for paternal grandpa



Population
Amerindian-
Arabian-
Armenian-
Basque2.45
Central_African-
Central_Euro6.62
East_African-
East_Asian-
East_Balkan5.27
East_Central_Asian-
East_Central_Euro10.29
East_Med-
Eastern_Euro7.76
Fennoscandian10.81
French6.86
Iberian12.78
Indo-Chinese-
Italian8.08
Malayan-
Near_Eastern-
North_African-
North_Atlantic12.69
North_Caucasian-
North_Sea13.51
Northeast_African-
Oceanian-
Omotic0.39
Pygmy-
Siberian-
South_Asian1.25
South_Central_Asian-
South_Chinese-
Volga-Ural-
West_African-
West_Caucasian-
West_Med1.24






The other 50% is French Canadian

His Y-DNA is I-M223 (I2b1*)
 
Johane Derite said:
Razib Khan did some stuff on this that might help:

"Anyone who has looked at German data realizes that it is very difficult to identify a ‘prototypical’ German. Germans are people who speak Germanic languages, whose ancestors out of the European Bronze Age, when much of Northern European population structure was established. But being at the center of Europe means that Germans have been subject to gene flow by peoples to from all other directions. Also, some ethnic Germans in the eastern regions clearly descend from Slavic tribes, and more recently there were migrations of peoples such as French Huguenots.A PCA of Danes, English, French, and Germans, show differences across the groups. But Germans overlap a great deal with the English, and a substantial minority overlap with Danes. Also, many more of the Germans are “French-shifted” than the English.
The point is that to be German is to be many things. At least in the context of Northern European peoples."


Germanic.png

Germany-1.jpg




LINK 1: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017...are-not-cons-part-2-the-problem-of-ethnicity/

LINK 2: https://blog.insito.me/germans-in-the-middle-of-europe-and-in-the-middle-of-ancestry-66568b44d6f6
Click to expand...

Is there a way for me to find out where my family members plot on these maps?
 
Boeck,

I came up with the following possible model of ancestry for your paternal grandpa:

France & Iberia, 50.75% - including:

Bretagne - 31.60%
Rhone-Alpes - 9.10%
Auvergne - 6.95%
Spain - 3.10%

Germanic countries, 28.25% - including:

Vorpommern - 15.75%
Schleswig-Holstein - 3.30%
Denmark - 8.85%
Netherlands - 0.15%
Austria - 0.10%
Sweden - 0.10%

Slavic-Baltic-Finnic, 19.65% - including:

Ethnic Polish - 9.25%
Belarusian - 6.20%
Ingrian Finnic - 4.20%

Other stuff, 1.35% - including:

India - 1.20% - this is from his "South_Asian"
Ethiopia - 0.15% - this is from his "Omotic"
 
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