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Thread: Stradioti.....their origin and history????

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    People in the past didn't fight, support, oppose or in general made any political or military move based entirely and solely on ethnic lines. It's simply anachronistic and self-deceiving to try to project modern inter-ethnic relations or conflicts, and modern national feelings, onto pre-modern, particularly pre-modern nationalism people.
    That observation is especially true of groups of mercenaries, who were usually willing to integrate to their hordes all kinds of foreign people who were willing to be helpful and respect their rules and customs, and of course were willing to work for and even adopt the social/cultural markers of whoever paid them a good amount of money. Irrespective of ethnic origins, their allegiances to this or that nation were tenuous at best. The best way to find reliable information about such ancient groups and understand them better is to avoid projecting present issues onto them and looking at them as some kind of 100% coherent and closed community. Most of the times they weren't, and you could see people from the very same ethnicity fighting on both sides of any war according to their own local, "tribal", parochial interests.
    Excuse me but here we are talking about a specific case. If we follow your observation, we will never learn the truth, because we will cover everything with a kind of fog. The duty of an scholar is to enter in dettails and to remove the fog. I will be back to this argument but first i want to ask you as a moderator if you can you can guarantee us a normal discussion in this thread, because this member, Yetos, is destroying this thread.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ LABERIA.

    YOU STILL DO UNDERSTAND OR YOU SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTAND.

    SEARCH. PAX KALLERGI
    there is your answer.

    IN FACT WHEN MERCENAIRIES CAME TO MY AREA
    I MAYBE EVEN DO NOT LOOK THEIR ORIGIN,


    SEARCH PAX KALLERGI
    your answer is There.

    come on Historian,
    you have found rare sources,
    that is an easy one.
    https://www.google.al/search?dcr=0&s....0.i_PNwWLOKlM

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    So Now that you find it,
    you surely Understand That Crete was under a Semi Independence.
    And No Venician or other Western should be outside the allowed zones,


    I think that is enough,
    Kallergi manage a treaty that Allowed Venicians trade and defend their zones,
    But not Crete,

    That Treaty was so wise and good for both,
    that not even pope Clement did not manage to broke,


    now 350 years later happened something that is known as the siege of Candia Πολιορκια του Χανδακα,

    But strange Ottomans also Respect that Treaty, until the Sultan Hamid 2nd,
    NO Ottoman step outside the zones, Until the Egyptian occupation,
    After Egyptian occupation started the countdown for Liberty,

    NOTICE
    3500 Venicians Left Handakas with safety.
    Andrea Barrozi took 1400 Ducats
    much more than Bonifat de Monferat took when sold Crete after 4rth Crusade,



    CRETANS DID NOT PARTICIPATE NEITHER with VENICIAN NEITHER WITH OTTOMANS,
    TILL THE ORLOV'S REVOLT.

    PAX KALLERGI was a rule to both Venicians and Ottomans,
    Until tghe occupation by the Egyptians.

    So now you understand the meaning of Alexios Kallergis treaty,

    Cretans were neutrals, at the siege,
    to fight for whom?
    for Venicians or for Ottomans?

    or to become Mercenairies?
    MERCENAIRIES DO ΝΟΤ FIGHT FOR FAITH, OR TRIBE, OR NATION,



    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Let me remember you my question:

    I don`t have any reason to search what you suggest me. Since you have some knowledge, you can share with us what you know following my example:

    from Antonina Zhelyazkova's paper: Islamization in the Balkans as a Historiographical Problem: the Southeast-European Perspective in: The Ottomans and the Balkans, A Discussion of Historiography ed. Fikret Adanir, Suraiya Faroqhi

    p 240-244

    Did the Cretans fought against the Ottomans, or they joined them?


    It`s simply historical interest. Are you suggesting that we need need to ask for permission to you before starting a thread?



    It`s your problem. It will be very interesting if you share with us this battle of greeks.

    You have nothing to say because you have no idea of what we are talking here.


    The only thing that is going wrong here is your partecipation in this thread. It`s unbelievable for me how a man of your age, probably 50-60 years old, behave in this forum like an teeneager of 15-16 years old, attacking without reason people, ethnic groups and destroying every thread. Below you have an example of your behaviour:
    Korkodeilos Kladas was an Albanian from Himara.

    Ok, leave the others to illuminate that period.

    Albania was de facto an indipendente country at the beggining of the XIX century. Unfortunately the Great Powers supported the Ottomans in what can be considered an second occupation of Albania by the Ottomans, betraying the Albanians from one side and from the other side they sent an army and liberated your country. Learn some history before talking.




    Kolokotronis, i mean the warrior and the leader not the myth that you worship today, was an Arvanite, i.e. Albanian who was part for some time of the Albanian Regiment in the islands like many other notable Albanians.

    LABERIA you live in the myth,
    A Myth that you make by your Own,

    Mercurio Boya
    Korkondil Κλαδας from Χειμαρα !!!!!!!!
    ΚΟΡΚΟΝΤΥΛ ΚΛΑΔΑ WOULD BE NOONE IF NOT MET DAIMONOGIANNI ΔΑΙΜΟΝΟΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ
    WAS DAEMONOGIANNI ALSO ALBANIAN FROM CHIMARA?
    DAIMONOGIANNI FOUGHT FOR VENICIANS UNTIL 1479. then he fought again at 1490 and died at 1493.
    He died at 1490, The mentor of Klada to Stratioti.


    That is why I love you guys,
    cause everytime, you enter the same loop.
    Last edited by Yetos; 11-04-18 at 03:55.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ahh its always funny to see Yetos against everyone else

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Mercurio Boya - Porco Giove :)
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    So Now that you find it,
    you surely Understand That Crete was under a Semi Independence.
    And No Venician or other Western should be outside the allowed zones,


    I think that is enough,
    Kallergi manage a treaty that Allowed Venicians trade and defend their zones,
    But not Crete,

    That Treaty was so wise and good for both,
    that not even pope Clement did not manage to broke,


    now 350 years later happened something that is known as the siege of Candia Πολιορκια του Χανδακα,

    But strange Ottomans also Respect that Treaty, until the Sultan Hamid 2nd,
    NO Ottoman step outside the zones, Until the Egyptian occupation,
    After Egyptian occupation started the countdown for Liberty,

    NOTICE
    3500 Venicians Left Handakas with safety.
    Andrea Barrozi took 1400 Ducats
    much more than Bonifat de Monferat took when sold Crete after 4rth Crusade,



    CRETANS DID NOT PARTICIPATE NEITHER with VENICIAN NEITHER WITH OTTOMANS,
    TILL THE ORLOV'S REVOLT.

    PAX KALLERGI was a rule to both Venicians and Ottomans,
    Until tghe occupation by the Egyptians.

    So now you understand the meaning of Alexios Kallergis treaty,

    Cretans were neutrals, at the siege,
    to fight for whom?
    for Venicians or for Ottomans?

    or to become Mercenairies?
    MERCENAIRIES DO ΝΟΤ FIGHT FOR FAITH, OR TRIBE, OR NATION,



    No, i didn't find nothing and i don't understand what you are talking. Why don't you quote some scholar and in this way we can learn what you have in your mind?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Excuse me but here we are talking about a specific case. If we follow your observation, we will never learn the truth, because we will cover everything with a kind of fog. The duty of an scholar is to enter in dettails and to remove the fog. I will be back to this argument but first i want to ask you as a moderator if you can you can guarantee us a normal discussion in this thread, because this member, Yetos, is destroying this thread.
    Oh, no, this comment of mine wasn't about this specific case of the origins of Stradioti. It was meant as a general response to the arguments between Yetos and other members about who fought for which empire, who can be proud for figthing for which side in this or that war, all that projection of modern biases, identities and political/cultural allegiances to people and circumstances from many centuries ago. That's just useless. In most large scale wars within empires, you'd always see people from the same ethnicity fighting either for or against the empire, for or against any other interest group or state, because people, especially mercenaries, didn't make their decisions based just on religious or ethnic lines, this is nothing but a modern nationalist myth with the exception of some rare occasions where a people really formed strong alliances based on their common culture or at least belonging to a common homeland. There were even Muslims fighting for the Byzantine Empire and Christians fighting alongside the Seljuks during the conquest of Asia Minor, for example. So, it doesn't matter if some Albanians fought for the Turks, or some Greeks fought for or against Venetians, or whatever. They were not representatives of their entire nation/ethnicity there, there were many other, usually more parochial or even personal interests involved in those conflicts.

    Now, you're right when you tell me that this topic really needs some moderation, so...

    Yetos, please refrain from this conspiratorial and adversarial tone against the other members, even if they were discussing things that you think are false or wrong that doesn't mean there is a whole hidden "conspiracy" to spread this or that myth to undermine your people or anything else. Calm down a bit and please try to debate with the other members of the forum in a more polite, self-contained and understandable (the lack of clarity of some of your posts may be causing some confusion), because this thread is really becoming too divisive and messy, and your attitude until now is only contributing to that negative outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    No, i didn't find nothing and i don't understand what you are talking. Why don't you quote some scholar and in this way we can learn what you have in your mind?

    for what?

    For Pax Kallergi?
    or for Andrea Barozzi?




    Vendramin - Kalergi.

    as for the info

    Search the 'Fede Amorosa', a thetrical play
    Dedicated to Kalergi family and Kalerga Kalergi
    Venice 1620.

    for Andrea Barozzi
    I am sure you can find a lot in Intranet.

    one of the top writers for Candia
    is Ιωαννης 'Κομνενος' Παπαδοπουλος
    his books Occio
    in Italian Zuane 'Comneno' papadopoli from Padova
    he was not a Comnenos, he just used that title.


    Qui tandem habito refpe£tu , quòd pax femper bonum inducebat , guerra verò malum , contenti fuerunt ad pacem & concordiam cum Venetis pervenire ; Cujus guerræ ... De reverfione Alexii Calergi ad Nuncios Januenfium. f H Ic Alexius tempore guerræ cum 3anuenfìbus nuper præteritæ per folemnes eorum.

    Rerum Italicares Scriptores ....



  10. #60
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    @ Berun you ask something

    ASV, Senato Mar, reg. 21, 158r-159rDie XVII suprascripti mensis [MDXXIX maii]Serenissimi Principi etexcellentissimo ducale DominioPerche e peculiar instituto di questo excellentissimo stato verso chi cum fede ilserve usar et munificentia et gratitudine, il fidelissimo et devoto servo di vostra SerenitaZuan Paleologo fo de miser Zorzi ha preso confidentia comparer al conspectodi quella pensandose che le opere et fede usate verso il vostro illustrissimo Dominioper lui expectante, d. Nicolo Paleologo suo fratello, Rali Paleologo fio del dicto dominoNicolo et sui progenitori, Γ habino facto benemerito et degno di la gratia divostra illustrissima Signoria et maxime de d. Constantin, Manoli et Zorzi Paleologofratelli. Del qual d. Zorzi dicto expectante et d. Nicolo Paleologo furon figli. Alii qualtre fratelli, d. Manoli che fu mandato per il q. clarissimo d. Antonio Loredan, chealhora era capitano general alia Morea per cose importantissime del stato vostro,dove pervenuto ale mano de Mesich Bassa, che era suo zerman, il fece scortegar vivoet impita la pelle de paglia la mando alia Porta. D. Constantin essendo sta preso aLepanto, dove de mandato de la illustrissima Signoria vostra Γ era capo de strathiotiet reducto a Constantinopoli fu segato per mezo vivo solum per el cognome diPaieologi. Et a d. Georgio padre de dicto expectante et d. Nicolo Paleologo sui figlioli,quali dali sui primi anni semper han servito fidelmente et in ogni occorrentia etvissuti sotto la felicissima umbra di vostra Serenita come etiam ha facto RaliPaleologo fiol del dicto d. Nicolo. Le opere et fede di quali deno esser note alillustrissimo Senato vostro et assai piu a vui serenissimo Principe, che in tute leproxime passate guerre ben ha visto vostra Serenita li pretamenti et fede di essi etmaxime del dicto Rali Paleologo. II qual Rali Paleologo ultimo loco alia impresa deManfredonia da inimici fu crudelmente morto, ηό molto dopoi pere le molte vigilie et strachi morse dicto d. Nicolo suo padre, lassati cinque figlioli pupilli, uno masculoet quatro femine in gran poverta et sopra le spalle de lui povero supplicante.Per il che stantibus premissis essendo degno de la bona gratia de vostra Serenita,qual mai abandono li suoi servitori, humiliter supplica che lei per sua innata bonta etdementia se degni abbrazzar dicti poveri pupilli orfani et concederli per il viver etmaridar de dicte fie in vita sua et de cadauno de essi figlioli li ducati XXti, havea dictoq. d. Nicolo Paleologo et li ducati 10 similiter per ogni paga che havea dicto q. RaliPaleologo tuti do alia Camera de Vicenza, ac etiam li ducati XX per paga a pagequatro all' anno che dicto supplicante scuode alia Camera de Cephalonia, similitersiano concessi a dicti fioli ut supra dapoi la sua morte. qual desidera sia alii servitiide la Sublimita vostra come e stata quella de li prenominati progenitori, fratello etnepoti, accio cum tal suffragio possino substentar la vita sua et gustar de la gratia dela Sublimita vostra et maritar dicte fie come e solito di quella verso li suoi benemeriti,alia bona gratia de la qual humiliter et flexis genibus se riccomanda.Et perche da poi che vostra Sublimita ha commessa la presente supplica et precealii signori Savii de Terraferma le morto d. Joanne Paleologo nostro barba et padreadeo che nui poveri pupilli derelicti et abandonati prostrati supplicamo, che laCelsitudine vostra per sua innata dementia vogli compassioname et provedeme accionon andiamo remengi, perche manchato dicto d. Joanne barba et piu che padre, elqual ne nutriva. non havemo altrove riccorrer che alii piedi di vostra Serenita.

    Die XI mensis maijL' andera parte che attesa la longa servitu, meriti et fede de li q. strenui d. NicoloPaleologo et Rali suo figliolo capi nostri de strathioti ultimamente morti ne laimpresa de Puglia et del strenuo d. Zuane Paleologo suo fratello li prossimi giomimorto in questa cita, sia per autorita di questo Conseglio concesso alii figlioli predictidel dicto q. Nicolo li ducati XX per paga chel q. d. Zuane havra alia Camera de laCephalonia a page quatro all' anno per sustentatione loro et maritar de le fie di essoq. Nicolo come dimandano et quando el figliolo sera in eta idonea, essendo apto aliamilitia, non se li habia ad manchar di quel conveniente favore che e solita prestate laSignoria nostra alii figlioli de li benemeriti nostri.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    for what?

    For Pax Kallergi?
    or for Andrea Barozzi?




    Vendramin - Kalergi.

    as for the info

    Search the 'Fede Amorosa', a thetrical play
    Dedicated to Kalergi family and Kalerga Kalergi
    Venice 1620.

    for Andrea Barozzi
    I am sure you can find a lot in Intranet.

    one of the top writers for Candia
    is Ιωαννης 'Κομνενος' Παπαδοπουλος
    his books Occio
    in Italian Zuane 'Comneno' papadopoli from Padova
    he was not a Comnenos, he just used that title.


    Qui tandem habito refpe£tu , quòd pax femper bonum inducebat , guerra verò malum , contenti fuerunt ad pacem & concordiam cum Venetis pervenire ; Cujus guerræ ... De reverfione Alexii Calergi ad Nuncios Januenfium. f H Ic Alexius tempore guerræ cum 3anuenfìbus nuper præteritæ per folemnes eorum.

    Rerum Italicares Scriptores ....


    This is what the page of Wiki says:
    Cretan War (1645–1669)


    Fall of Candia


    The new Ottoman army arrived on the island during the winter of 1666/1667, and in May, the final phase of the siege, overseen by the Grand Vizier himself, began. It would last for 28 months and cost the lives of 70,000 Ottoman soldiers, 38,000 conscripted Cretans and slaves who labored in the Ottoman siege works and 29,088 of the city's Christian defenders.[38]
    Your people who write this things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Now, you're right when you tell me that this topic really needs some moderation, so...
    I really appreciate this.
    BTW, is it possible that Yetos offers us an English translation of his post number 60? Because if I'm not mistaken, it is against the rules of this forum to cite a text without an English translation, usually these kind of posts are deleted after giving to the member a reasonable space of time.
    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I really appreciate this.
    BTW, is it possible that Yetos offers us an English translation of his post number 60? Because if I'm not mistaken, it is against the rules of this forum to cite a text without an English translation, usually these kind of posts are deleted after giving to the member a reasonable space of time.
    Thanks in advance.
    Let focus on Stradiot history and sources.....


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    LABERIA you live in the myth,
    A Myth that you make by your Own,

    Mercurio Boya
    Korkondil Κλαδας from Χειμαρα !!!!!!!!
    ΚΟΡΚΟΝΤΥΛ ΚΛΑΔΑ WOULD BE NOONE IF NOT MET DAIMONOGIANNI ΔΑΙΜΟΝΟΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ
    WAS DAEMONOGIANNI ALSO ALBANIAN FROM CHIMARA?
    DAIMONOGIANNI FOUGHT FOR VENICIANS UNTIL 1479. then he fought again at 1490 and died at 1493.
    He died at 1490, The mentor of Klada to Stratioti.


    That is why I love you guys,
    cause everytime, you enter the same loop.
    Ο Κροκόδειλος (Κορκόδειλος-Κορκόντηλος-Ακροκόνδυλος) Κλαδάς (1425-1490) καταγόταν από τη Χιμάρα της Β. Ηπείρου και ήταν αλβανικής καταγωγής. Ο πατέρας του Θεόδωρος μετανάστευσε μαζί με άλλους Αλβανούς στην Πελοπόννησο όπου βρέθηκε στην υπηρεσία των Παλαιολόγων. Για τις υπηρεσίες του άλλωστε αυτές τού παραχωρήθηκαν εκτάσεις στην Μπαρδούνια της Μάνης όπου διατηρήθηκε το αρβανίτικο στοιχείο τουλάχιστον ως το 1821.




    The Krokodeilos (Kordodilos-Korkontilos-Acrocondylos) of Kladas (1425-1490) originated from Chimara, Northern Epirus and was of Albanian descent. His father, Theodore, emigrated with other Albanians to the Peloponnese, where he was in the service of Palaiologos. For his services, he was given land in Barduuna of Mani, where the Arvanite element was preserved at least until 1821.

    http://www.mani.org.gr/istor/klad2/kladas_arthro.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    This is what the page of Wiki says:
    Cretan War (1645–1669)



    Your people who write this things.
    where it writes such thing?
    Cause I know Turks had more than 60 000.
    Locals supported Ottomans merchandising food and simple things
    and not the ones in the castle.
    BUT GAIN THEIR PARTIALLY AUTONOMY


    In fact Pax kallergi created at 1299 and last 17 or 19 years,
    after that Enetocracy came back to the island,
    but with tottaly different proposal,

    besides the Hurray goes to Cretans,
    Who revolt both to Enetoi and Ottamanoi later
    not the mercenairies

    CAN YOU GIVE ME A REASON WHY CRETANS TO SUPPORT VENICE AT HANDAKAS SIEGE?
    OR YOU LIKE ENETOCRACY AND WORK AS A MERCENAIRY

    HANDAKAS WAS SOLD FOR 1400 DUCATS FROM ANDREA BARROZI
    BARROZI WAS POISONED AT THE SECOND ATTEMPT,


    BESIDES IT WAS NOT THE STRADIOTI WHO LIBERATE BALKANS,
    IT WAS FILIKI.

    THANKS TO FILIKI ETAIREIA GREECE WON INDEPENDANCE
    AND AFTER GREECE ALL SOUTH BALKAN STATES
    AND NOT THANKS TO STRADIOTI.

    By READING THE PAX CALLERGI you will UNDERSTAND MANY,
    Especially the priviledges, and land owning.

    For The story
    It was Malta knights who attack the Porta galleys
    and took almost half of the harem,
    and hide in Crete,
    So it was ENETO-TURKISH WAR.
    Why Occupied and Suprresed Cretans and generally Greeks should Care?


    LABERIA
    IF YOU DOT READ THE WHOLE PACK OF PAX KALLERGI,
    AND THE VATICAN -VENICE DIFFERENCES THAT SPRUNG FROM IT
    YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND CRETANS,
    AND THEIR HALF-AUTONOMY.
    PERIOD

    that is why still I am curious why this thread open?
    what purpose?
    Last edited by Yetos; 11-04-18 at 21:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Ο Κροκόδειλος (Κορκόδειλος-Κορκόντηλος-Ακροκόνδυλος) Κλαδάς (1425-1490) καταγόταν από τη Χιμάρα της Β. Ηπείρου και ήταν αλβανικής καταγωγής. Ο πατέρας του Θεόδωρος μετανάστευσε μαζί με άλλους Αλβανούς στην Πελοπόννησο όπου βρέθηκε στην υπηρεσία των Παλαιολόγων. Για τις υπηρεσίες του άλλωστε αυτές τού παραχωρήθηκαν εκτάσεις στην Μπαρδούνια της Μάνης όπου διατηρήθηκε το αρβανίτικο στοιχείο τουλάχιστον ως το 1821.




    The Krokodeilos (Kordodilos-Korkontilos-Acrocondylos) of Kladas (1425-1490) originated from Chimara, Northern Epirus and was of Albanian descent. His father, Theodore, emigrated with other Albanians to the Peloponnese, where he was in the service of Palaiologos. For his services, he was given land in Barduuna of Mani, where the Arvanite element was preserved at least until 1821.

    http://www.mani.org.gr/istor/klad2/kladas_arthro.htm
    Yetos counter argument?????


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yetos counter argument?????


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Corcondyl Clada.

    his mentor was DaemonoGiannis

    I have not found about his origin yet,

    No counter argument for now,
    Neither accept neither reject

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yetos counter argument?????


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    What counter argument? Just have a look at the bibliography:
    Bibliography
    - History of the Greek Nation (Publishing Athens), vol. I (1974), pp. 276-279.
    - Odst. E. Vakalopoulos, History of New Hellenism, vol. III (1968), pp. 50-53.
    - K. Sathas, Turkish-occupied Hellas, Athens 1869, pp. 37-38.
    - K. Sathas, Hellenic Anecdotes, Vol. 1, Athens 1867.
    - K. Sathas, Greeks in the Second World War and Revival of Hellenic Tactics, Athens 1885.
    Published by TA NEA (11-08-2000)

    History of the Greek nation, Sathas, Vakalopoulos. Top of the sources.
    I am busy but i will try to find some times and translate the entire article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    where it writes such thing? Cause I know Turks had more than 60 000. Locals supported Ottomans merchandising food and simple things and not the ones in the castle. BUT GAIN THEIR PARTIALLY AUTONOMY In fact Pax kallergi created at 1299 and last 17 or 19 years, after that Enetocracy came back to the island, but with tottaly different proposal, besides the Hurray goes to Cretans, Who revolt both to Enetoi and Ottamanoi later not the mercenairies
    Nothing to do with this Pax Kalergi Yetos. We have discussed before the role of the Orthodox Church. Emmanuel Tzanes was a painter of byzantine art in Candia at the time of the war, when the war of 1644 started, he fled to Corfù where he wrote a poem about the war. In that poem he wonders if it's better the Turks to win the war. Of course, Tzane's opinion represents the orthodox church's opinion about this war. There was an tradition in orthodox church established since the occupation of the City from Mehmet II in year 1453. The attitude of the orthodox church in the siege of Constantinople at 1453 where actually gave the City to the Turks while Latins alone fighting on the walls. Sultan Mehmet Fatih with Patriarch of Constantinople, Genadius Scholarios. There are some sources that support the theory that Ottomans found Genadius in a market of slaves. They liberated and put him at the head of Orthodox Church. As Gennadios Scholarios was blaring during the siege of Constantinople ''Don't fight! It's God's will this city to be turkish!'' the same was repeated in the siege of Candia, i just don't have the citation yet. The facts confirm this. During the Venetian rule the orthodox high clergy was banned from Crete, only lower papades were allowed there so imo they, the church and of course the ecumenical patriarch naturally supported the Ottoman conquest. Already in 1646 when the Ottomans captured Rethymnon, the patriarch of Constantinaple appointed there Neophytos Patellaros as metropolitan of Crete under Ottoman protection. The guy was from a rich local family and a relative of the patriarch. The Ottomans also exempted the local orthodox priests and monks from the jizya for 30 years to win their support. Source for these: Elizabeth A. Zachariadou, Glances at the Greek Orthodox priests in the seventeenth century in: Living in the Ottoman Ecumenical Community, Essays in Honour of Suraiya Faroqhi,p. 310. The war wasn't even started yet when the orthodox church was taking office at rethymno. How confused will be a greek child if been learned all this at school? If considers what disaster the turks bring to the island right after the war. It`s an classic of human history, Yetos. In one hand the sword and in the other hand the cross.
    CAN YOU GIVE ME A REASON WHY CRETANS TO SUPPORT VENICE AT HANDAKAS SIEGE? OR YOU LIKE ENETOCRACY AND WORK AS A MERCENAIRY HANDAKAS WAS SOLD FOR 1400 DUCATS FROM ANDREA BARROZI BARROZI WAS POISONED AT THE SECOND ATTEMPT,
    A reason? Following your logic when you attack Albanians here, because Cretans were Christians like the Venetians.
    BESIDES IT WAS NOT THE STRADIOTI WHO LIBERATE BALKANS, IT WAS FILIKI. THANKS TO FILIKI ETAIREIA GREECE WON INDEPENDANCE AND AFTER GREECE ALL SOUTH BALKAN STATES AND NOT THANKS TO STRADIOTI.
    Absolutely not true. The story is completly different and this is an different discussion but let me bring you in reality:
    In the meantime, the Ottomans crossed the Danube river with 30,000 tactical troops, and Ypsilantis, instead of advancing on Brăila, where he arguably could have prevented the Ottoman armies entering the Principalities and might have forced Russia to accept a fait accompli, retreated and organized his defense at a semi-mountainous area close to Iaşi. There followed a series of major battles that lead to the defeat of the Eteria's forces, culminating in the final defeat at Drăgăşani on 19 June. After a long march in the rain, Ypsilantis's army was exhausted, but Karavias, who was drunk led the Sacred Band into a charge against the Ottomans.[9] As the inexperienced and ill-trained men of the Sacred Band did not form squares, which would have allowed them to pack enough firepower together, the Ottoman cavalry had no difficulty in cutting down the rebels.[9] After the defeat, Ypsilantis fled north. Ypsilantis in his final declaration to his men refused to accept responsibility for his failure and blamed his men for all his failures, writing:
    "Soldiers! No! I will no longer pollute that sacred and honourable name by applying it to you. You are a cowardly rabble!...You have broken your oaths, you have betrayed God and your country, you have betrayed me too at the moment when I hoped either to conquer or to die with honor among you...Run off to the Turks, who alone are worthy of your support...run off to the Turks, and kiss their hands from which still drips the blood of those they have inhumanly slaughtered. Yes! Run off to them, buy slavery with your lives and with the honor of your wives and children!"[10]
    Ypsilantis's army booed him when he read out this declaration. Refuge

    Ypsilantis, accompanied by what remained of his followers, retreated to Râmnic, where he spent some days in negotiating with the Austrian authorities for permission to cross the frontier. Fearing that his defeated followers might surrender him to the Turks, he gave out that Austria had declared war on Turkey, caused a Te Deum to be sung in the church of Cozia, and, on pretext of arranging measures with the Austrian commander-in-chief, crossed the frontier. But the reactionary policies of the Holy Alliance were enforced by Francis I and Klemens Metternich, and the country refused to give asylum for leaders of revolts in neighboring countries. Ypsilantis was kept in close confinement for seven years (1823 to 1827 in Terezín), until he was released at the insistence of the emperor Nicholas I of Russia.[11] Death

    After his release, he retired to Vienna, where he died in extreme poverty and misery on 29 January 1828.[11]
    A bunch of drunk people without experience. Meanwhile their leader Ypsilantis, ended in a prison after being betrayed by "greek merchants". All his "warriors", the slavs, etc, escaped. Who remained until the end in the battlefield, and this is not said in the article of Wiki, were two persons with their warriors, George Olimpi, probably a Vlach(some Albanians claim that he was Albanian but i have not found strong evidences in support of this thesis, so he was a Vlach in my opinion) and an Albanian, Ali Farmaki(not the friend of Kollokotronis, another Farmaki) with his Albanians. They both fought until the end, an classic this in the history of the Balcans, an Albanian and a Vlach, like Scanderbeg and Huniadi. Olimpi committed suicide, meanwhile Farmaki was captured alive by Ottomans and was impaled in Istanbul. The Great Powers decided the future of this region, not some insignificant semi-clandestine organisation.The most powerful man in the southern Balkans at that time was an Albanian Pasha, Ali Pasha of Tepelena. But these are long stories and not related with this topic.
    By READING THE PAX CALLERGI you will UNDERSTAND MANY, Especially the priviledges, and land owning. For The story It was Malta knights who attack the Porta galleys and took almost half of the harem, and hide in Crete, So it was ENETO-TURKISH WAR. Why Occupied and Suprresed Cretans and generally Greeks should Care? LABERIA IF YOU DOT READ THE WHOLE PACK OF PAX KALLERGI, AND THE VATICAN -VENICE DIFFERENCES THAT SPRUNG FROM IT YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND CRETANS, AND THEIR HALF-AUTONOMY. PERIOD
    Yetos, you can not continue with this kind of discussion, i know something but i will not tell you nothing you have to search yourself. If you know something that you consider important about this ainigmatic Pax Kalergi, open a thread and explain it. It`s so simple.
    [that is why still I am curious why this thread open? what purpose?
    I think this has been explained. Anyway, you are free to explain your point of view. P.S. Please, try to translate in English your post number 60. Thanks.
    Last edited by LABERIA; 13-04-18 at 13:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Nothing to do with this Pax Kalergi Yetos. We have discussed before the role of the Orthodox Church. Emmanuel Tzanes was a painter of byzantine art in Candia at the time of the war, when the war of 1644 started, he fled to Corfù where he wrote a poem about the war. In that poem he wonders if it's better the Turks to win the war. Of course, Tzane's opinion represents the orthodox church's opinion about this war. There was an tradition in orthodox church established since the occupation of the City from Mehmet II in year 1453. The attitude of the orthodox church in the siege of Constantinople at 1453 where actually gave the City to the Turks while Latins alone fighting on the walls. Sultan Mehmet Fatih with Patriarch of Constantinople, Genadius Scholarios. There are some sources that support the theory that Ottomans found Genadius in a market of slaves. They liberated and put him at the head of Orthodox Church. As Gennadios Scholarios was blaring during the siege of Constantinople ''Don't fight! It's God's will this city to be turkish!'' the same was repeated in the siege of Candia, i just don't have the citation yet. The facts confirm this. During the Venetian rule the orthodox high clergy was banned from Crete, only lower papades were allowed there so imo they, the church and of course the ecumenical patriarch naturally supported the Ottoman conquest. Already in 1646 when the Ottomans captured Rethymnon, the patriarch of Constantinaple appointed there Neophytos Patellaros as metropolitan of Crete under Ottoman protection. The guy was from a rich local family and a relative of the patriarch. The Ottomans also exempted the local orthodox priests and monks from the jizya for 30 years to win their support. Source for these: Elizabeth A. Zachariadou, Glances at the Greek Orthodox priests in the seventeenth century in: Living in the Ottoman Ecumenical Community, Essays in Honour of Suraiya Faroqhi,p. 310. The war wasn't even started yet when the orthodox church was taking office at rethymno. How confused will be a greek child if been learned all this at school? If considers what disaster the turks bring to the island right after the war. It`s an classic of human history, Yetos. In one hand the sword and in the other hand the cross. A reason? Following your logic when you attack Albanians here, because Cretans were Christians like the Venetians. Absolutely not true. The story is completly different and this is an different discussion but let me bring you in reality: A bunch of drunk people without experience. Meanwhile their leader Ypsilantis, ended in a prison after being betrayed by "greek merchants". All his "warriors", the slavs, etc, escaped. Who remained until the end in the battlefield, and this is not said in the article of Wiki, were two persons with their warriors, George Olimpi, probably a Vlach(some Albanians claim that he was Albanian but i have not found strong evidences in support of this thesis, so he was a Vlach in my opinion) and an Albanian, Ali Farmaki(not the friend of Kollokotronis, another Farmaki) with his Albanians. They both fought until the end, an classic this in the history of the Balcans, an Albanian and a Vlach, like Scanderbeg and Huniadi. Olimpi committed suicide, meanwhile Farmaki was captured alive by Ottomans and was impaled in Istanbul. The Great Powers decided the future of this region, not some insignificant semi-clandestine organisation.The most powerful man in the southern Balkans at that time was an Albanian Pasha, Ali Pasha of Tepelena. But these are long stories and not related with this topic. Yetos, you can not continue with this kind of discussion, i know something but i will not tell you nothing you have to search yourself. If you know something that you consider important about this ainigmatic Pax Kalergi, open a thread and explain it. It`s so simple. I think this has been explained. Anyway, you are free to explain your point of view. P.S. Please, try to translate in English your post number 60. Thanks.
    hm
    Church had always influence EVERYWHERE,
    even in Albania, religion played a big role,
    Religion many times STARTED WARS.

    BUT IN CASE OF CRETE YOU WRONG,AND NOT ONLY WRONG BUT...
    What in purpose you do not see,or search, is what really happened,

    ok lets see one by one,
    First you say that Church (possibly you mean the Orthodox and not the Catholic) gave Con/polis and about Scholarios
    BUT YOU SUPPORT STRADIOTI, SO PROBALY YOU ARE WITH GEMISTOS PLITHON,
    STRATIOTES CARRY THE IDEA OF ΠΛΗΘΩΝ ΓΕΜΙΣΤΟΣ,
    SO YOU ARE CONFUSED CLEARLY EVEN ABOUT WHAT STRADIOTI REPRESENT AS IDEA.

    I SUGGEST READ HER WORK


    YOU USE HER MANY TIMES,YOU KNOW HER, ELENI GLYKATZI ARBELER.

    SECOND
    THE FALL OF CON?POLIS TO TURKS WAS THE SECOND ONE.
    THE FIRST WAS TO CRUSADERS OF 4RTH CRUSADE.
    THE ERA IS NAMED LATINOCRACY
    AND MAKES CLEAR THE GREEK STATES, VS THE CRUSADERS STATES,
    THE EPIKOYREIAN PHILOSOPHY CRUSADERS,
    WHO SWORN LIBERTY TO 'HOLY PLACES"
    LIBERATED EAST ROMAN EMPIRE, BY THE ROMANS!!!!!!!!


    THIRD,
    for the story of Con/polis fall to Muhamad 2nd also has minor stories,
    a decade before that happened the Ferrara- Firenze congress of Christian churches.
    the Indulgence Jubile of Vatican Ιντouλγκεντσιες Ιωβηλαιου,
    manage to gather a lot of money,
    But they were used by the Aragonese, in tottaly different purposes.
    Con/polis was defended by Palaiologos,
    The Russian LATIN patriarch sender, Isidoros of Kiev
    and The 3 galleys of Genovese defenders,
    I suggest read Pope Pius 2nd about that,
    and the effects of Ferrara-Firenze concress.
    ON CONTADICTORY,MUHAMED 2nd build RUMELI HISAR,
    RUMELI HISAR BLOCK ANY HELP FROM WEST,ONLY TH GENOVESE FLEET PAST IT.
    RUMELI HISAR GUARD WAS MAINLY BY BALKAN PEOPLE,TILL GATHER THE FORCES FROM EAST,
    MUHAMED GATHERS MORE THAN 100 000 Army there, for some 200 000
    THE ETHNICITIES BY % ARE
    TURKS
    ALBANIANS
    MULSIMIZED BYZANTINES
    SERBIANS

    FACT NO 1.

    OUTSIDE AT LEAST 100 000 multinatianal force,
    inside 4500 Byzantines and 3 galleys of Justiniani Genovese.
    the fall started By death of Justiniani,
    his death drop the morale of the Genovese
    ,and since only they could pass the Keratios,
    their work change to load the galleys with the sacred relicks,
    They left few hours before the fall,
    so when Turks entered they were sailing, carrying the relicks, and the city empty
    a city of 70 000 around 1438 had only 10 000 people and few guards at the fall,
    THEY EMPTY THE CITY BEFORE SIEGE......


    FACT No2
    when you write about Scholarios you are right,
    and have big truth about him and the monks.
    He was cursing the defenders, and send Byzantine Youth to monasteries
    just not to fight for Con/polis
    THAT IS MOHAMED 2nd gave him Millet.
    and he restored the Athos 'Holy mountain' monasteric properties


    FACT NO3

    Vatican in case of Con/polis show tottaly a different face than with Crusade 4rth,
    I will not enter why or what,
    BUT that time face an inner possible schisma,which should first arrange

    THE ABOVE ARE FACTS,

    CON/POLIS FELT DUE TO THE ARMY THAT MUHAMAD MANAGE TO GATHER,AND HIS MONEY, AND DIPLOMACY
    AND DUE TO DIVISION OF BYZANTINES,
    THE FERRARA-FIRENZE CONGRESS MADE A LOT OF DAMAGE TO EAST,
    THAN HELP KEEP THE EAST ROMAN EMPIRE.
    and WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT CHURCHES AND CLERICS,
    MY OPINION IS HYPOCRISY IS BEHIND
    It was not the Vatican responsible to save Con/polis
    Neither was Scholarios or specially Isidoros the Latin patriarch of Con/poli
    ssimply the foundamentalism among church fanatics,
    HELPED ONLY THE TURKS AND THEIR DIPLOMACY.
    A LESSON TO BOTH EAST AND WEST,
    THAT WEST REALIZE IT AFTER THE Pope PIOS 2nd,
    WEST (catholics) COULD NOT POSSES OR DEFEND EAST,AND HAD NO JOB TO RULE AT THE EAST,
    EAST (Orthodox) DOGMATIC DEFENDING AND STERILE DIPLOMACY IS JUST BRINGING SHRINKING,
    Church manage to save monasteries and properties,but shrunk,
    shrunk to the limit of almost non existance.


    ABOUT HANDAKAS (candia)
    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHURCH OR CON/POLIS OR WHATEVER YOU CLAIM
    CRETE BELONGS TO JERUSALEM PATRIARCHATE,
    AS CONCERNS RELIGIONA TOTTALY DIFFERENT APROACH THAN CON/POLIS.
    HALF GREEK, HALF ARAB, SPEAKING, BUT ROMEO- CATHOLIC by 5/12
    THAT IS WHY ARABS WANTED BEFORE, WHEN THEY OCCUPIED JERUSALEM.


    Fact No 1
    4rth Crusade,Crete is Given to Bonifat de Monferat,who then sells it etc etc
    SOLD GIVEN SOLD GIVEN SOLD
    I suggest you know the Greek rhime
    κολοκυθια στον Πάτερο, send pumpkins to Pateros.
    which comes from that Era.

    FACT NO2
    Crete is Venician occupation and even in few decades start revolts there,
    the one that manage to change the status was the PAX KALLERGI,
    PAX KALLERGI last 17-19 years,
    BUT GAVE THE WEST AN IMPORTAND MEANING,
    NO OCUPATION WITH OUT ACCEPTED AND EQUAL RULES,
    and citizenship
    Ι Suggest find the terms
    PAX KALLERGI IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TREATIES TO THE WESTERN MEDIEVAL WORLD.
    ALTHOUGH IS ONE OF THE LESS KNOWN.
    Only the term that Kallergi and Cretans took back their land, while Pope Clement 5th lost His properties,
    you understand the measure of the treaty.
    Pax Kallergi is a big achievement of Cretans,
    and although siezed 17 years after,
    still gave Cretans dignity, and participation on how the land should be ruled,
    a kind of Autonomy Not the castle, the land outside.
    IT WAS A STARTING POINT TO ACCEPT OR REVOLT TO AN ERA CALLED ENETOCRACY




    Fact No 3
    the Eneto-Turkish wars were many.
    The one you mention at 1640-1670 about started by Malta Knights, which use Crete to hide,
    after Attacking Ottomans,an Attack to the caravan of pilgrims returning from Mekka, and half of his harem
    is tottaly something outrageous for Islamic populations,
    So the anger of Porta would not stop until erase either Venicians from Crete, even the island hershelf,
    No matter treaties etc etc happened to protect it, it was doomed, for the forces of Sultan were tremendous,
    and THE CRETANS POSSIBLY HAD NO WILL TO HELP THE VENICIANS WHO REGREAT THE PAX KALLERGI, and cancel it
    AND WHY SHOULD THEY CARE FOR THE FEUDAL SYSTEM or Aristicracy THAT VENICE PROMOTE (compare Libro d' oro in other areas, etc etc)
    In their mind is not to protect Venician Aristocrates, but their island from massacres that might happened.
    AND I ASK YOU,AMONG 2 OCCUPIERS, WHICH ONE YOU CHOOSE?
    So what happenned is that Cretans did not risk to trade and merchant with food the castles,
    but merchandise with Ottomans, and did not evolve resisting Ottomans,
    On Contradictory, they left them alone, and that is why we had no atrocities,

    Fact No 4
    Handakas (candia) castle was sold,
    Not Taken, NEITHER FELT
    DOES THIS REMINDS YOU SOMETHING? LIKE THE 4rth Crusade?
    the 'PATEROS PUMKINS'
    Andrea Barrozi took 1400 Ducats,
    remember that Nicolo Palaiologo was paid 2 Ducats per month By the city Brescia as Stradioti for a group of 21 knights
    POST #60 you ask Is his letter to accepted and serve Venice
    So I answer you to that.


    FACT No 5
    THE VENICIAN-ITALIAN COLONIES/DWELLINGS IN CRETE
    What You do not see is this, (I do not want to believe, that you do it in purpose)
    Crete had 2 major Venician Italian colonies
    one was in Chania, and one in Lasithi plateau, especially the last was outside the city walls numbering if remember correct 3 000-10 000 Venicians
    if you are old in the forum there was a thread about them and their genetics
    THEY ARE STILL THERE
    as the genetic shows,But they become one with Cretans and their philosophy,possibly participated at the Crete Liberation strungles
    WHICH MEANS THAT ONLY THE DEFENDERS of Castle LEFT CRETE
    ,
    WHILE VENICIANS OUTSIDE CASTLE REMAIN IN CRETE,
    WHY? WHAT HAPPENED AND THEY STAY WITH NO ARMY TO PROTECT THEM?


    Fact No 6
    THE SEMI-AUTONOMOUS CRETE
    Crete after that war gains priviledges, that did not had before, even with Pax Kallergi,
    Even Autonomy in many things
    Until the era of Egyptian occupation.
    That Autonomy is one of the important in Greek paligenesia
    remember Karaiskakis,he had 600 Cretans infantry and navy at the siege of Athens,
    even after the Orlov's

    PS
    Tottaly Different thinking?
    or for propaganda reasons?

    2 things we must notice as balkanic people

    1, When Romans enter Balkans, Illyrians resist,
    Their efforts remained in History as Illyrian wars,
    As Makedonian and Greek I am proud that my ancestors also resist

    2. When Mussolini enter Balkans, Albanians did not resist.
    Greeks even today celebrate the 'OXI day' considering it the second most precious word for their indepentence.

    tell me Laberia,
    as an Albanian and possibly claiming ancestry from Illyrians,
    what do you think about that?
    DOES THE FEELING OF ANCESTRY CHANGED AFTER 2 millenias?
    OR SOMETHING ELSE?
    IT IS THE FEELING AND THE MOOD OF THE LOCALS ACCORDING ERA AND INDEPEDENCE
    BEAUTY IS THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.
    TRUE DEFENDER IS THE ONE WHO LIVES IN THE AREA.
    Last edited by Yetos; 14-04-18 at 01:52.

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    Yes,but ,if you are an extremely fast talking guy ,who always smiles(or,more precisely,always uses the same smile;for instance,a Greek,an Italian,a Slav,etc.),the Church can use you, to create demographic imbalances,by acting like a rabbit.

    "I will bang her,like the Deaf hits the(church) bell", the Romanian joke says,in the very traditional ,shepherd ,manly ,manner.
    In other words,it has to be something really special...


    http://www.taranisme.ro/files/images...au_in_ea-1.jpg
    Last edited by Dreptul Valah; 15-04-18 at 13:45.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    hm

    Church had always influence EVERYWHERE,
    even in Albania, religion played a big role,
    Religion many times STARTED WARS.
    I didn't said that Church started the war. I said that Orthodox Church has sided with Ottomans.
    BUT IN CASE OF CRETE YOU WRONG,
    AND NOT ONLY WRONG BUT...

    What in purpose you do not see,
    or search, is what really happened,

    Why you think that i am wrong?
    ok lets see one by one,
    First you say that Church (possibly you mean the Orthodox and not the Catholic) gave Con/polis and about Scholarios
    Yes, exactly.
    BUT YOU SUPPORT STRADIOTI,
    I don`t support nobody, i am trying to give my contribution in this thread.
    SO PROBALY YOU ARE WITH GEMISTOS PLITHON,
    STRATIOTES CARRY THE IDEA OF ΠΛΗΘΩΝ ΓΕΜΙΣΤΟΣ,
    What exactly was this idea and how stradiotes carried this idea? Can you help us to understand better it?
    SO YOU ARE CONFUSED CLEARLY EVEN ABOUT WHAT STRADIOTI REPRESENT AS IDEA.
    I don`t think that i am confused. I know perfectly what stradioti represented.
    I SUGGEST READ HER WORK




    YOU USE HER MANY TIMES,
    YOU KNOW HER, ELENI GLYKATZI ARBELER.
    What exactly she said? You can quote her and save us some time.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    for what?

    For Pax Kallergi?
    or for Andrea Barozzi?




    Vendramin - Kalergi.

    as for the info

    Search the 'Fede Amorosa', a thetrical play
    Dedicated to Kalergi family and Kalerga Kalergi
    Venice 1620.

    for Andrea Barozzi
    I am sure you can find a lot in Intranet.

    one of the top writers for Candia
    is Ιωαννης 'Κομνενος' Παπαδοπουλος
    his books Occio
    in Italian Zuane 'Comneno' papadopoli from Padova
    he was not a Comnenos, he just used that title.


    Qui tandem habito refpe£tu , quòd pax femper bonum inducebat , guerra verò malum , contenti fuerunt ad pacem & concordiam cum Venetis pervenire ; Cujus guerræ ... De reverfione Alexii Calergi ad Nuncios Januenfium. f H Ic Alexius tempore guerræ cum 3anuenfìbus nuper præteritæ per folemnes eorum.

    Rerum Italicares Scriptores ....


    http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html

    click on santorino
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Nothing to do with this Pax Kalergi Yetos. We have discussed before the role of the Orthodox Church. Emmanuel Tzanes was a painter of byzantine art in Candia at the time of the war, when the war of 1644 started, he fled to Corfù where he wrote a poem about the war. In that poem he wonders if it's better the Turks to win the war. Of course, Tzane's opinion represents the orthodox church's opinion about this war. There was an tradition in orthodox church established since the occupation of the City from Mehmet II in year 1453. The attitude of the orthodox church in the siege of Constantinople at 1453 where actually gave the City to the Turks while Latins alone fighting on the walls. Sultan Mehmet Fatih with Patriarch of Constantinople, Genadius Scholarios. There are some sources that support the theory that Ottomans found Genadius in a market of slaves. They liberated and put him at the head of Orthodox Church. As Gennadios Scholarios was blaring during the siege of Constantinople ''Don't fight! It's God's will this city to be turkish!'' the same was repeated in the siege of Candia, i just don't have the citation yet. The facts confirm this. During the Venetian rule the orthodox high clergy was banned from Crete, only lower papades were allowed there so imo they, the church and of course the ecumenical patriarch naturally supported the Ottoman conquest. Already in 1646 when the Ottomans captured Rethymnon, the patriarch of Constantinaple appointed there Neophytos Patellaros as metropolitan of Crete under Ottoman protection. The guy was from a rich local family and a relative of the patriarch. The Ottomans also exempted the local orthodox priests and monks from the jizya for 30 years to win their support. Source for these: Elizabeth A. Zachariadou, Glances at the Greek Orthodox priests in the seventeenth century in: Living in the Ottoman Ecumenical Community, Essays in Honour of Suraiya Faroqhi,p. 310. The war wasn't even started yet when the orthodox church was taking office at rethymno. How confused will be a greek child if been learned all this at school? If considers what disaster the turks bring to the island right after the war. It`s an classic of human history, Yetos. In one hand the sword and in the other hand the cross. A reason? Following your logic when you attack Albanians here, because Cretans were Christians like the Venetians. Absolutely not true. The story is completly different and this is an different discussion but let me bring you in reality: A bunch of drunk people without experience. Meanwhile their leader Ypsilantis, ended in a prison after being betrayed by "greek merchants". All his "warriors", the slavs, etc, escaped. Who remained until the end in the battlefield, and this is not said in the article of Wiki, were two persons with their warriors, George Olimpi, probably a Vlach(some Albanians claim that he was Albanian but i have not found strong evidences in support of this thesis, so he was a Vlach in my opinion) and an Albanian, Ali Farmaki(not the friend of Kollokotronis, another Farmaki) with his Albanians. They both fought until the end, an classic this in the history of the Balcans, an Albanian and a Vlach, like Scanderbeg and Huniadi. Olimpi committed suicide, meanwhile Farmaki was captured alive by Ottomans and was impaled in Istanbul. The Great Powers decided the future of this region, not some insignificant semi-clandestine organisation.The most powerful man in the southern Balkans at that time was an Albanian Pasha, Ali Pasha of Tepelena. But these are long stories and not related with this topic. Yetos, you can not continue with this kind of discussion, i know something but i will not tell you nothing you have to search yourself. If you know something that you consider important about this ainigmatic Pax Kalergi, open a thread and explain it. It`s so simple. I think this has been explained. Anyway, you are free to explain your point of view. P.S. Please, try to translate in English your post number 60. Thanks.
    http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Creta.html

  25. #75
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    Guys you quote me before I finish

    The Importance of Venice to modern thinking, and generally modern world
    Conserning the East Roman empire , and the Crete island

    Venice was not a city,
    but rather a league, a coalition,
    a democracy which included many nationalities, and religion,

    we know that in Venice might started the foundation of modern economical system on which is based the West (banking and papper usage)

    but lets start from the begin

    Venice is gather of islands, a small pellagos,
    the sea is not deep so not huge battleship can reach.
    that is placed East of Alps, and has passages to Central and North Europe
    in this islands lived different minorities,
    like Jews, Armenians, etc

    that makes the place ideal for merchantise, storage/warehouse,
    with a natural protection,
    and priviledge to land passages and sea routes.

    Venicians realize that, and the era of byzantine collapse,
    took the advantage and manage this small island complex, to make it so important
    that Even the emperrors could not handle,

    Their succes was emporion,
    their keys were the naval roads to middle East and Byzantion, Ottomans later,
    as also the Silk and Amber,
    later they create their own industries, specially in glass, needed for merchantise the smells,
    spices, parfumes etc.

    in older to hold, needs to control castles and naval convoy stops,
    so She needs islands, and treaties,
    easy and small to control and defend,

    the fall of Byzantine gave her an oprtunity to sprung to the elite merchant cities,
    reaching no 1, and overpass manytimes the big aplle of mediterenean, the Con/polis

    Venice change many times her traditional laws,
    especially about minorities,
    like in case of Stradioti and san Giorgio church,
    Giving her more power, and rich, and prestige,
    ideal for multinational, multireligious trade.

    Venice also came in contra with Pope,
    as in case of Crete and kallergi,
    setting rules, tottaly different than the ones used in the same era,

    All these until corruption of too much gathered rich,
    and decadense of Aristocracy,


    Venice earned a lot by Greeks, and from the castles she used in Greece,
    Also Greeks earned from Venice on having areas not fully occupied by Ottomans.

    It was a vice versa trade/relationship
    which many times worked perfect.
    and many times did not due to Aristocracy, or other reasons.

    Finished.
    Last edited by Yetos; 14-04-18 at 02:28.

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