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Thread: Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    the vast majority of foreign immigrants in Hungary will just use it as bridge towards their preferred destinations like Germany, Switzerland and Sweden.
    Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    the biggest threat to Eastern European "civilization" is the combination of extremely low birth rates with very high EMIGRATION - no, not immigration - rates driving increasingly negative population growth in most nations
    Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    By the way, I didn't know this civilization is apparently so weak that it needs to be transmitted via DNA, not by acculturation of people, regardless of their ancestry
    Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Do you really think people would be so wary of his government's democratic credential just because he favors a conservative and more restricted policy of immigration? The problem is way bigger than that little controversy.
    Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

    And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    "These days you can't write racial abuse on someone's car with excrement without politically correct brigade jumping down your throat"

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    To a degree, till the will of majority suppress rights of minorities. That's why we have many basic rights guaranteed in every constitution. This is were will of majority must stop.

    The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority. The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today. Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system



    Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.



    Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees



    Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

    And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?
    Well, lots and lots of unsubstantiated assumptions in your post:
    - that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);
    - that if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);
    - that immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks);
    - that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    - that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);
    Bad example. Magyars were a small military elite that did not substantially replace the native population. What is going on today Europe is not a question of absorbing and assimilating a small number of immigrants. It is a question of the immigrants replacing the native population. If current trends continue, native Europeans will be the minority in many of their own countries. Why must they acquiesce in their own destruction? And, by way of contrary example, why does Japan take so few immigrants? Perhaps the Japanese are not suicidal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);
    I am very suspicious of groups like Amnesty International, just as I am suspicious of the US government =
    https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world...garys-election

    But I must confess, I don't really believe in liberal democracy anymore. Sue me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks)
    First, I do not think that ending immigration is a panacea. In fact, I think that opposition to mass immigration must be coupled with a critique of liberal free trade and globa capitalism in general.

    See the French thinker Jean-Claude Michea = http://seejps.lumina.org/index.php/v...ainst-the-left

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    - that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?
    I think that all other problems pale when faced with the prospect of demographic replacement. However, in general I think we would all be better off with a reduced birth rate. But the rates must fall globally, throughout the world. Otherwise, the first step before any other problems can be addressed is to defend our borders, the fundamental duty of any state.

    As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion, I am just as guilty in this regard as anyone else. I will most likely not have any children. All I can do is weep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    A madman said this, but it has a ring of truth:


    “The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society without causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.”
    It`s not so simple.
    In 1989, Orbán received a scholarship from the Soros Foundation to study political science at Pembroke College, Oxford.[9] His personal tutor was Hegelian political philosopher Zbigniew Pelczynski.[10] In January 1990, he left Oxford and returned to Hungary to run for a seat in Hungary's first post-communist parliament.
    Hungarian-American business magnate and political activist George Soros criticized Orbán's handling of the European migrant crisis in 2015, saying: "His plan treats the protection of national borders as the objective and the refugees as an obstacle. Our plan treats the protection of refugees as the objective and national borders as the obstacle."[98] The Orbán government began to attack Soros and his NGOs since early 2017, particularly for his support for more open immigration. In July 2017, the Israeli ambassador in Hungary joined Jewish groups and others in denouncing a billboard campaign backed by the government, in which Soros was vilified as an "enemy of the state". The campaign was widely seen as anti-semitic, with critics claiming it "evokes memories of the Nazi posters during the Second World War". The ambassador stated that the campaign "evokes sad memories but also sows hatred and fear", an apparent reference to the Holocaust. Hours later, in an apparent attempt to ally Israel with Hungary, Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a "clarification", denouncing Soros, stating that he "continuously undermines Israel's democratically elected governments," and that Soros funded organizations "that defame the Jewish state and seek to deny it the right to defend itself". The Israeli government has sought to ally itself with countries within the EU that might defend it from criticism; the clarification came a few days before an official visit to Hungary by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.[99] The anti-Soros messages became key elements of the government's communication and campaign since then, which, among others, also targeted the Central European University (CEU).[100][101][102][103]
    Judicial Watch: State Department Records Show Obama Administration Helped Fund George Soros’ Left-Wing Political Activities in Albania

    APRIL 04, 2018


    Obama USAID Used U.S. Taxpayers’ Funds to Back Soros Group’s Effort to Give Albania’s Socialist Government ‘Full Control Over Judiciary’
    (Washington, DC) — Judicial Watch obtained 32 pages of records showing the Obama administration sent U.S. taxpayers’ funds to a group backed by billionaire George Soros, which used the money to fund left-wing political activities in Albania, including working with the country’s socialist government to push for highly controversial judicial “reform.” The records also detail how the Soros operation helped the State Department review grant applications from other groups for taxpayer funding.
    The records were obtained in a May 26, 2017, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit against the U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) after both the State Department and USAID failed to respond to March 31, 2017, FOIA requests (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (No. 1:17-cv-01012)). Judicial Watch agreed to dismiss the lawsuit after it received the documents and payment of attorneys’ fees.
    The new documents show USAID funds were funneled through that agency’s Civil Society Project to back Soros’s left-wing Open Society Foundations in Albania, particularly the Soros operation efforts to give the socialist government greater control of the judiciary. USAID reportedly gave $9 million in 2016 to the “Justice for All” campaign, which is overseen by Soros’s “East West Management Institute.”
    In March 2017, a group of six U.S. Senators led by Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) sent a letter to then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson asking that he investigate charges that the U.S. government was using taxpayer funds to assist Soros in Albania. The letter said, “Foundation Open society-Albania and its experts, with funding from USAID, have created the controversial Strategy Document for Albanian Judicial Reform. Some leaders believe that these ‘reforms’ are ultimately aimed to give the Prime Minister and left-of-center government full control over the judiciary.” In the Albanian parliament, opposition leaders have labeled the Strategy “a Soros-sponsored reform.”
    2011 Albanian opposition demonstrations

    Excuse me but i have not elected George Soros in the Parliament. I don`t like to be governed by his Open Society Foundation and a bunch of NGO. I know that our politicians are a bunch of bastards, but they are the persons elected by people.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority.
    That's fallacy of thinking. Everybody wants to belong to majority, because it feels better and vindicates one's point of view. Trump was sure that majority voted for him, and he was wrong.


    The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today.
    Wow, the world is burning, run for the hills. I would guess that democracy had a great times in Europe after WW2 in the west and collapse of Soviets in the East. When did democracy worked in Europe for you? IN WW2, or maybe during imperial times before WW1? "Make Europe Great Again!"


    Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.
    I didn't know that city folks don't belong to the nation!

    If you think that there will be ever a political system to make everybody happy, think again. Regardless, basic human rights need to be protected.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Judicialwatch: Attachment 10001

    She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple

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    Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion
    This is a typical argument of religious person, and it covers all world's problems perfectly. Together with fall of Roman Empire. The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OkTex View Post
    Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor!
    Didn't we just talk about this psychological phenomenon? You=Majority (think, confirmed right choice=feels good=must be true) elected Trump!

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    Judicialwatch: Attachment 10001

    She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple
    Exactly, look at her face and majority knew she was:
    Quote Originally Posted by OkTex View Post
    I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... T!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In Hungarian elections, 70% of the vote went to right wing nationalist parties.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

    Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go.
    Professor of psychology Dr. Jordan B Peterson talks about a current hot topic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6KETs_5xE

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    Judicialwatch: Attachment 10001
    She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple
    I can't see the attachment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Exactly, look at her face and majority knew she was:
    Let's think logically, would republicans call Clintonas evil for 20 years if they weren't evil?

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    Viktor Orbán Day of Honor Speech 2018 (with Eng. subs.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmGyDw6_ypo


    Jordan Peterson, Canadian clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, speaks with The Epoch Times about Postmodernism and Cultural Marxism.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is a typical argument of religious person, and it covers all world's problems perfectly. Together with fall of Roman Empire. The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.
    Even in Saudi Arabia, which could hardly be more officially religious and conservative, the fertility rate dropped in less than 40 years to less than 3 children and is soon going to be slightly below the replacement rate of 2.1! But in my opinion NO country reaches the absurdly low levels of some Eastern and Southern European countries, as well as nations like Japan and South Korea, without some social and economic problems encouraging people to postpone or even avoiding procreation as much as they can - and not for good reasons and completely free choice, but because of narrow opportunities, extreme loss of social and family cohesion, and especially (mostly economic) anxiety about their future. The majority of the world is not experiencing rates as absurdly low as 1.1-1.3 as you can see in some of those nations, and in some nations of Eastern Europe that is coupled by another problem, which is that the extremey low fertility rate is not partly compensated by a very high life expectancy and very good health conditions for elders.

    I do think that countries experiencing abnormally insufficient fertility rates are amidst a true demographic crisis and face structural problems that are probably at the background of this demographic consequence, but of course the trend toward low birth rates (low but still at least near to the replacement rate in order to allow a sustainable demographic transition) is unavoidable almost everywhere where modern urban civilization arrived - whether the country is religious or irreligious, conservative or progressive, or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    Let's think logically, would republicans call Clintonas evil for 20 years if they weren't evil?
    Are you continuing your wicket sarcasm or your comments are that stupidly shallow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Even in Saudi Arabia, which could hardly be more officially religious and conservative, the fertility rate dropped in less than 40 years to less than 3 children and is soon going to be slightly below the replacement rate of 2.1! But in my opinion NO country reaches the absurdly low levels of some Eastern and Southern European countries, as well as nations like Japan and South Korea, without some social and economic problems encouraging people to postpone or even avoiding procreation as much as they can - and not for good reasons and completely free choice, but because of narrow opportunities, extreme loss of social and family cohesion, and especially (mostly economic) anxiety about their future. The majority of the world is not experiencing rates as absurdly low as 1.1-1.3 as you can see in some of those nations, and in some nations of Eastern Europe that is coupled by another problem, which is that the extremey low fertility rate is not partly compensated by a very high life expectancy and very good health conditions for elders.

    I do think that countries experiencing abnormally insufficient fertility rates are amidst a true demographic crisis and face structural problems that are probably at the background of this demographic consequence, but of course the trend toward low birth rates (low but still at least near to the replacement rate in order to allow a sustainable demographic transition) is unavoidable almost everywhere where modern urban civilization arrived - whether the country is religious or irreligious, conservative or progressive, or whatever.
    Yes, it is a problem, at least for a short timescale. This is a new paradigm, and humanity would need to wrestle how to solve it. Our technological revolution brought quite few changes, and some of them turned to be challenges. Choice of having kids, became existential problem of shrinking nations. Oversupply of food made societies obese, which shortens life and lowers its quality. Transportation shrank the world and opened borders, scaring many with multiculturalism and invasion of immigrants, the others, and rise of nationalism. Etc, etc, etc.
    I'm not sure what should be done with low birthrate. Should we wait and let evolution bring a solution. There are always people who love to have many kids and will have them more than others. With time they will populate countries with people who love kids and have many. Who knows, in few hundred years we might face again overpopulation problem.
    Of course, at least the quick solution should be helping new families with social assistance to encourage having kids. Long and paid maternal/parental leave. Free daycare and education including free university. Free Disneyland maybe. :)
    Though, this approach will ruin natural selection option. ;)

  20. #45
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    As to lower birthrates, I think it's all of the things mentioned, but it's also that children changed from being an economic asset into being an enormous economic drain. The way we believe we should or are taught to raise them nowadays also necessitates an equally enormous investment of time and energy.

    Some people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices required. They prefer to spend their money on themselves. I'm not saying they're necessarily more selfish innately than people of prior generations: it's just that they now have options.

    In terms of Southern European countries, this is not a new phenomenon. In my mother's family and many others couples even in the thirties, before artificial birth control, were limiting the size of their families. My father's family, with eleven births, was an anomaly, and my paternal grandfather suffered a lot of criticism for it. After the war, the rule was already one child. My mother was soundly taken to task by her family members for having a second child. The considerations were not just economic either. It was also a feeling that you wanted to do so much for them that you just didn't have the resources of any kind to do it for a lot of children.

    In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.

    To circle back to the main topic, the fascists were aware of the problem in the thirties in at least some areas of the country, and were offering incentives to families to have more children.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to lower birthrates, I think it's all of the things mentioned, but it's also that children changed from being an economic asset into being an enormous economic drain. The way we believe we should or are taught to raise them nowadays also necessitates an equally enormous investment of time and energy.

    Some people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices required. They prefer to spend their money on themselves. I'm not saying they're necessarily more selfish innately than people of prior generations: it's just that they now have options.

    In terms of Southern European countries, this is not a new phenomenon. In my mother's family and many others couples even in the thirties, before artificial birth control, were limiting the size of their families. My father's family, with eleven births, was an anomaly, and my paternal grandfather suffered a lot of criticism for it. After the war, the rule was already one child. My mother was soundly taken to task by her family members for having a second child. The considerations were not just economic either. It was also a feeling that you wanted to do so much for them that you just didn't have the resources of any kind to do it for a lot of children.

    In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.

    To circle back to the main topic, the fascists were aware of the problem in the thirties in at least some areas of the country, and were offering incentives to families to have more children.
    Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

    Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

    What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

    I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).
    Last edited by Angela; 13-04-18 at 18:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is a typical argument of religious person
    I believe much more in sin than I do in God, let alone Jesus Christ. That said, Dante's Purgatorio is on my list of 20 books to read before the end of the year. The medieval mind had a much better understanding of lust and such related sins as acedia/despondency/sloth than we do today. But since I am anonymous here, I will say that I have suffered from a sexual fetish for as long as I can remember. I think that the Freudian theory of the fetish has a lot to be said for it (with Masud Khan having the most penetrating insights). I believe that the incidence of fetish complexes among men in modern societies is much greater than in traditional societies, and that this is tied to the decline of the father's authority. Men no longer learn how to tend fields or execute a craft from their fathers. They go to school instead to learn abstract skills for an increasingly abstract world. The decline of parental authority can be traced back to Christianity, to the desacralizing of the paterfamilias figure. Modernity has compounded this by depriving the father of his practical authority as well. The result is that young men do not model themselves on their fathers. This is what I mean by sex role confusion. The fetish, once unfurled in whole, is an avoidance of conjugal sex. The fetish is a substitute for sex, the de-virilization of the modern man. This is a major reason for the epidemic of pornography addiction in modern societies. People used to have sex. Now they watch porn. There are of course other reasons. Isolation, atomization, anomie, so on and so forth. But the root cause is the decline of virility and the rise of the fetish complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.
    I think people are also having a lot less sex than in the past. At least in modern Western societies. Married people have sex. Single adults with lonely lives do not have very much sex. They have the occasional one-night stand.

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    I am happy to report that I agree with the comments of Angela in post #45 and Ygorcs in post #46 of this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, it is a problem, at least for a short timescale. This is a new paradigm, and humanity would need to wrestle how to solve it. Our technological revolution brought quite few changes, and some of them turned to be challenges. Choice of having kids, became existential problem of shrinking nations. Oversupply of food made societies obese, which shortens life and lowers its quality. Transportation shrank the world and opened borders, scaring many with multiculturalism and invasion of immigrants, the others, and rise of nationalism. Etc, etc, etc.
    I'm not sure what should be done with low birthrate. Should we wait and let evolution bring a solution. There are always people who love to have many kids and will have them more than others. With time they will populate countries with people who love kids and have many. Who knows, in few hundred years we might face again overpopulation problem.
    Of course, at least the quick solution should be helping new families with social assistance to encourage having kids. Long and paid maternal/parental leave. Free daycare and education including free university. Free Disneyland maybe. :)
    Though, this approach will ruin natural selection option. ;)
    let's get back to the old system
    those who don't have kids should save for their own pension, they don't get one from the state
    those who have kids who pay for pension, their parents get a pension from the state
    the pension is a return of investment in children

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.
    the fact that women now also have a career is certainly a new factor in low birthrates

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