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Thread: Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

    Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

    What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

    I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).
    I think that those who don't have children should abstain from commenting those who raise children.
    Furthermore each child is different and needs a different approach.
    We should also allow again for older children to grow 'on their own'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's fallacy of thinking. Everybody wants to belong to majority, because it feels better and vindicates one's point of view. Trump was sure that majority voted for him, and he was wrong.


    Wow, the world is burning, run for the hills. I would guess that democracy had a great times in Europe after WW2 in the west and collapse of Soviets in the East. When did democracy worked in Europe for you? IN WW2, or maybe during imperial times before WW1? "Make Europe Great Again!"


    I didn't know that city folks don't belong to the nation!

    If you think that there will be ever a political system to make everybody happy, think again. Regardless, basic human rights need to be protected.

    Use your eyes today, not your ears, for example look at London, typical of most European cities today.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Are you continuing your wicket sarcasm or your comments are that stupidly shallow?
    Sarcasm is the highest form of wit, it's not for everyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    let's get back to the old system
    those who don't have kids should save for their own pension, they don't get one from the state
    those who have kids who pay for pension, their parents get a pension from the state
    the pension is a return of investment in children
    Oh, this is "my way", the independent way. I don't even care if my kids pay for my retirement. I'm that independent. It is working for me, and maybe for you. But you can't run the whole society this way. The solution you porpoising won't work on big scale, unless you are ready to see people dying from poverty in the street every day. Unless you are ready spend your retirement money and bigger taxes to build more prisons, because from poverty of the unfortunate the crime will skyrocket. Then you will ***** about the crime, telling us that we should also "get rid of" the useless scum of society.
    And yes, these ways were very popular in Europe in many countries in between wars period.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    Use your eyes today, not your ears, for example look at London, typical of most European cities today.
    The booming and successful metropoly of millions of people? Love it. If only we could get rid of the imperialistic relique, the monarchy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

    Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

    What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

    I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).
    Sorry, Ygorcs. I didn't edit your comment. I wanted to respond.

    I agree with all of that. I think that ideally there should be a middle ground between being a "helicopter" parent and a laissez-faire one, the kind about whom my mother used to say that cats were better mothers than some human mothers. It's just that it's a difficult line to maintain. It is indeed a very competitive world, and as you love your children, you want them to be equipped to compete. You're also bombarded with messages about how everything that goes wrong with a child is the mother's fault, and that brings additional pressure. Add to that the fact that nonna and nonno and uncles and aunts are not around to help out.

    Economic insecurity, pessimism about the future, mothers who work outside the home etc. etc. are also factors. Let's also not forget that people see all around them the terrible problems among young people due to drugs, sometimes leading to criminality, the young girls getting pregnant and bringing the baby home for the parents to raise and on and on. One of my best friends is childless. Just recently she was saying to me that after years of being anguished by it she is now grateful, because she doubts she would have been able to handle the situations in which some of the people she knows find themselves.

    Whether some government subsidies would actually help, I don't know. I doubt it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Just recently, I was reading an article that talked about the neurological changes that happens in parents after having children. It's pretty interesting:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-is-hard-wired


    Kohl, Johannes, et. la. "Functional circuit architecture underlying parental behavior." Nature (2018). (link is external)http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-018-0027-0

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Just recently, I was reading an article that talked about the neurological changes that happens in parents after having children. It's pretty interesting:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-is-hard-wired


    Kohl, Johannes, et. la. "Functional circuit architecture underlying parental behavior." Nature (2018). (link is external)http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-018-0027-0
    Something definitely changes, and I do think it's hard-wired. My husband really had no burning desire to have children. He certainly wanted to put it off for a good long time, and would have been perfectly ok with not having them. Yet, once that baby was in his arms, he was hooked for good.

    You can't explain to people who have never had children what it feels like at least for some of us. It's a tidal wave of emotion: nothing and no one in the world is as important to you as this tiny, squirming, red faced, screaming little being. You'd give anything, do anything, absolutely anything, to protect them and ensure their happiness.

    The thing is, you can only experience it after the fact. Heck, I had baby fever every once in a while for years after my second, and that's what it is: almost a fever.

    Hard-wired indeed.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh, this is "my way", the independent way. I don't even care if my kids pay for my retirement. I'm that independent. It is working for me, and maybe for you. But you can't run the whole society this way. The solution you porpoising won't work on big scale, unless you are ready to see people dying from poverty in the street every day. Unless you are ready spend your retirement money and bigger taxes to build more prisons, because from poverty of the unfortunate the crime will skyrocket. Then you will ***** about the crime, telling us that we should also "get rid of" the useless scum of society.
    And yes, these ways were very popular in Europe in many countries in between wars period.
    the biggest abuse is that - at least in Belgium - we went from a capitalising system to a repartition system, which means the working generation now works to pay the pensions of the retired generation
    the capital is gone, politicians turned the national pension funds into a Ponzi scheme - yet nobody ever went to jail for that
    but that is not the point I wanted to make
    raising children is an investment, it costs a lot of money and time, you even have to adapt your lifestyle in order to raise them properly
    those who don't make those costs should at least be able to save enough to provide for their own pension

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the biggest abuse is that - at least in Belgium - we went from a capitalising system to a repartition system, which means the working generation now works to pay the pensions of the retired generation
    the capital is gone, politicians turned the national pension funds into a Ponzi scheme - yet nobody ever went to jail for that
    It is the same around the world. This problem will pass easily when robots will work for your pension. Robot will stop emigration too (work emigration), when they will make every country prosperous.

    but that is not the point I wanted to make
    raising children is an investment, it costs a lot of money and time, you even have to adapt your lifestyle in order to raise them properly
    Well, we have to invest in new generation, no doubt there, however the end goal is perpetuation of human species, and for me, constant advancement and betterment.

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    Hungary was always nationalistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Hungary was always nationalistic.
    http://www.americanhungarianfederati...ws_trianon.htm

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    Virgil Magureanu(real name Imre Asztalos) has become the chief of SRI on America's proposal,if what I have heard is correct(I assume that Western Europe was fine with that), although he was a well-known Soviet agent.

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    A forth big support for Hungary is the Austro-Hungary's Jewish community, that was very consistent in Transylvania as well,which is the place of origin of Harvey Keitel's mother.


    Perspective


    Although Western Wallachia has the lowest natality and economical power ever,you just can't rely only on simple mathematics:


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lD46_lSluvs

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    Hungary will continue helping refugees in their native lands, rather than encourage them to colonize other people's countries.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTAE7iXTmo0

    Fascinating interview on Hungary's stance on Europe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe15_ol6adQ

    Hungary on EU dispute: We'll be "unrelenting" | DW English

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IND9xk9E7vQ

    Hungary Helps

    http://abouthungary.hu/hungary-helps/

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    In adolescence, I have met some people from the Szekelyland on a national geography contest,it was a burden for me these kind of events,however,I usually went,because there were great parties after ,and the professors were quite understanding, they knew that I don't like the extremely repeated way of learning,but they rely on my intelligence.


    The campus' rooms were grouped for two counties each,we got the Szeklers.
    I remember that they were extremely politely and they look at us,at start,as we were some sort of aliens;10 minutes later,they have learnt the taste of beer,party,while I knew some Hungarian speech,before they have introduced me to their girls from the next door.


    As we party,I was trying to keep a high-quality atmosphere ,when I saw a blonde,green-eyed Hungarian girl who just jumps next to me and puts my hand on her hips,I surely didn't liked that so I grabbed her by the hair,Eniko was her name.


    After the good-looking Eniko has tempered herself and dressed really nice ,we went together at the campus' party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    In adolescence, I have met some people from the Szekelyland on a national geography contest,it was a burden for me these kind of events,however,I usually went,because there were great parties after ,and the professors were quite understanding, they knew that I don't like the extremely repeated way of learning,but they rely on my intelligence.


    The campus' rooms were grouped for two counties each,we got the Szeklers.
    I remember that they were extremely politely and they look at us,at start,as we were some sort of aliens;10 minutes later,they have learnt the taste of beer,party,while I knew some Hungarian speech,before they have introduced me to their girls from the next door.


    As we party,I was trying to keep a high-quality atmosphere ,when I saw a blonde,green-eyed Hungarian girl who just jumps next to me and puts my hand on her hips,I surely didn't liked that so I grabbed her by the hair,Eniko was her name.


    After the good-looking Eniko has tempered herself and dressed really nice ,we went together at the campus' party.
    This bizarre and nonsensical anecdote for your physical abuse against this woman has earned you an infraction for Disruptive/provocative behavior.

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    You're pushing your luck,I really mean that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    You're pushing your luck,I really mean that.
    You've received an infraction for sending me a threat via PM. This has accumulated to a ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    Sarcasm is the highest form of wit,
    no, it is not. It might be considered such by those who lack solutions (or the will to find them)

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    no, it is not. It might be considered such by those who lack solutions (or the will to find them)
    (My sarcasm triumphs again. This calls for an arch)

    Is it solution if it doesn't solve the problem?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

    In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

    Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

    In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maratmilano View Post
    Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

    In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

    Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

    In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.
    Douglas Murray; Brings America A Very Real Warning "Great Speech"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75-UsMhKBo

    The Strange Death Of Europe - 1 of 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lf6yUS4smg

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    Quote Originally Posted by maratmilano View Post
    Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).
    In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

    Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

    In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.
    https://www.ft.com/content/838d60c2-...1-5e720a26771b

    https://www.thelocal.se/20170216/emp...orn-population


    “We want our politics built on families,” said Prime Minister Orbán. “Make families again the core of European politics. Families and children are really a blessing—not just for the nation, but for the entire European community.”

    http://abouthungary.hu/blog/we-want-...pport-program/

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    Quote Originally Posted by maratmilano View Post
    Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

    In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

    Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

    In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.
    Well said, mratmilano.

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