Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 204

Thread: Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

  1. #76
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Douglas Murray; Brings America A Very Real Warning "Great Speech"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75-UsMhKBo

    The Strange Death Of Europe - 1 of 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lf6yUS4smg
    Deficit of vitamin D3 gets people in depression and phobias. At the extreme, experienced drivers can become afraid to drive a car. This affects all aspects of life, and is paralyzing. I've witnessed this phenomenon few times amongst friends here in Canada.
    You live so far north and it's been a long winter...
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  2. #77
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Deficit of vitamin D3 gets people in depression and phobias. At the extreme, experienced drivers can become afraid to drive a car. This affects all aspects of life, and is paralyzing. I've witnessed this phenomenon few times amongst friends here in Canada.
    You live so far north and it's been a long winter...
    "You are the only doctor who has been able to give me any direction - I can't say what it means when someone with a chronic illness is finally given some hope for relief from such an annoying symptom."
    http://www.neurologique.org/thankyou.html

  3. #78
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,373
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,373, Level: 23
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I still can't believe people want to be sent back to medieval times, would they be happy to have guards barging into peoples homes and sending them off to the dungeon for not praying to the right god or being forced to break rocks or pick peas for the local Baron in his cozy castle? They should really question whether these newly elected power hungry maniacs are "in it" for the nation (and not for themselves).
    Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.

  4. #79
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.
    The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/..._wnvn001b.html)

    Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

    If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.

  5. #80
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by maratmilano View Post
    Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

    In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

    Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

    In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.
    Excellent comment. But the challenge of very low fertility rates is already impacting even non-developed, emerging countries in such a fast pace that it'll probably have those countries even more paralyzed than the developed countries, especially because they have less resources to adapt to this new and still unknown world of aged population and low population of children and teenagers. In many states of Brazil, including the most populous ones like São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Rio Grande do Sul, the fertility rates are low even for European standards, around 1.4-1.6 (the national rate is not much higher, 1.8), and in China fertility rates have dropped to similar levels around 1.5. I agree with your points, but I'd just say that this challenge is now a global issue, not just a European one or a "first-world problem". It is just that Europe entered that phase earlier than others, so what we'll see there - the good and the bad consequences - is probably going to happen very soon in other places, even in emerging markets like Brazil, China and Turkey.

  6. #81
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,373
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,373, Level: 23
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/..._wnvn001b.html)

    Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

    If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.
    The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.

  7. #82
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,373
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,373, Level: 23
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    I litterally saw a guy like LeBrok says to put all migrants in a village create their own society and constantly harassing christianity like this is the most dangerous cult in the world, and this is an ancient slavery country problem. People are so afraid and coward that they gonna spit on christianity as being retarded and obsolete or conservative and being inclusive with islam even if its the latter who is dangerous. Why pick on dangerous barbarians, when you can pick on conservative and western civilized people hum ? The fear. Hiding behind an progressive and supposedly atheist ( wich is ridiculous because an atheist should litteraly be very conservative and skeptic against religions in general ) shield, some people gonna harass, the weaks, that cant count on the law but avoid the ones who doesn't care about the law.

  8. #83
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,214
    Points
    11,046
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,046, Level: 31
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.
    So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  9. #84
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.
    Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

    The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

    It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

    Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

    Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

    It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.

  10. #85
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,373
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,373, Level: 23
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?
    There is 5 millions of Muslims in western europe prior the recent afghan-syrian migrations. In one hand you have nationalized muslims that hate western civilization, in the other one the one who starve, primarlly men, that the futur generation gonna come enlarge the first ones mentioned.

  11. #86
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,373
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,373, Level: 23
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

    The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

    It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

    Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

    Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

    It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.
    If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

    Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with.

  12. #87
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

    Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with.
    Because I don't like liars, demagogues and manipulative politicians who try to hide the deeper problems of their own societies under the carpet to have easier and better electoral gains and avoid being pressured into discussing and proposing concrete and more elaborate solutions - which they don't have at all - instead of such an easy excuse as scapegoating some outsider group, potentially even harming other people (no matter if they are a massive population or a tiny minority). Much less I do like them when all those upsetting things come together into the same people. I think those are more than enough reasons for anyone who enjoyes reasonableness, honesty and truth to be upset about it.

  13. #88
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

    The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

    Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

    https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

    At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm

  14. #89
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/..._wnvn001b.html)

    Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

    If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.
    Hungary: Violent Swarms of Immigrants Attack Hungarian Border Police
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LD2BGT26qI

    Hungarian police block refugees and migrants outside Keleti train station

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deI8-oBqA7g

    Migrants in Budapest Keleti railway station
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eRQKJOg2FI

  15. #90
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.
    The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

    It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

    Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

    Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

    It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.
    "No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


    You are not ignorant...

    Soviet Occupation of Hungary
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

    The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

    Hungary Economic Outlook
    https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

    Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/vie...-9780199541621

    HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
    http://motherearthtravel.com/history.../history-6.htm

    DOUBLE OCCUPATION

    Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
    http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-...ble-occupation

  16. #91
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #92
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    518
    Points
    8,159
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,159, Level: 27
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 591
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Those dastardly rebels on the right
    Concerned with impending plight
    Voted away plunder
    Nations torn asunder
    Now sprung a new form of fright
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

  18. #93
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

    The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

    Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

    https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

    At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm
    Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.

  19. #94
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.
    Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."

  20. #95
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,194
    Points
    270,884
    Level
    100
    Points: 270,884, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Europeans should stop holding on to grudges and fears from 600 or 1000 years ago.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  21. #96
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


    You are not ignorant...

    Soviet Occupation of Hungary
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

    The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

    Hungary Economic Outlook
    https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

    Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/vie...-9780199541621

    HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
    http://motherearthtravel.com/history.../history-6.htm

    DOUBLE OCCUPATION

    Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
    http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-...ble-occupation
    All very fine, but this is 2018 and we're talking about the public perceptions by third-world people. What happened decades ago or even what real life is there does not matter. Most migrants from far away have this perception that good jobs and social benefits can only be easily found in Western/North Europe, and of course that is why the vast majority of them make no effort to say in the Balkans, Hungary or Poland, they just use those lands as a bridge to their preferred destination. It doesn't really matter what the truth is, but what they think it is, and they just aren't that interested in most of Eastern Europe, as the patterns of the last migration crisis have clearly demonstrated (a real massive horde of people - but the overwhelming majority just passing by). It's based on those "Western" dreams and most often mere illusions that they decide to undergo all sorts of risks.

  22. #97
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Europeans should stop holding on to grudges and fears from 600 or 1000 years ago.
    Why? Islam has not changed in the last 1400 years.

  23. #98
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,214
    Points
    11,046
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,046, Level: 31
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I highly doubt say, a 50 year old electrical engineer from Syria who wants a career in a safe place without having to worry about gas attacks has dreams of Islamic domination of the west; he's migrating to ensure his safety and survival. If anything, he would more than likely despise radical religous rule due to the damage it causes.

  24. #99
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,935
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,935, Level: 22
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: Sweden



    How Islam Became The Fastest Growing Religion In Europe
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOeAWy2vTCA

    Islam fastest growing religion in UK as churches decline
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqrFK4-OfQ

    Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’, Austrian cardinal says
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFRjvSJ01S8


    Douglas Murray - The Strange Death of Europe II
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nI5l8OCHeY

  25. #100
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,723
    Points
    26,307
    Level
    49
    Points: 26,307, Level: 49
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 243
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."
    Okay, so the implication is that that "horrendous" 0.1-0.3% of Muslim people in the country is a sign of awful things yet to come if nothing is done... It still doesn't explain why on earth this is considered a top priority of the country's politics, especially as they keep ignoring the awful youth and brain drain, the unsustainable demographic trends, obstacles to higher productivity growth and much more. If this was about the USA, Germany or even France or the UK, I'd try harder to be understanding, but, frankly, considering the present context it all sounds like a bit of historic grudge mixed with a lot of paranoia, sensationalism and political diversion.

Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •