Politics Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html)

Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.
The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.
 
I litterally saw a guy like LeBrok says to put all migrants in a village create their own society and constantly harassing christianity like this is the most dangerous cult in the world, and this is an ancient slavery country problem. People are so afraid and coward that they gonna spit on christianity as being retarded and obsolete or conservative and being inclusive with islam even if its the latter who is dangerous. Why pick on dangerous barbarians, when you can pick on conservative and western civilized people hum ? The fear. Hiding behind an progressive and supposedly atheist ( wich is ridiculous because an atheist should litteraly be very conservative and skeptic against religions in general ) shield, some people gonna harass, the weaks, that cant count on the law but avoid the ones who doesn't care about the law.
 
Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.

So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?
 
The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.

Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.
 
So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?
There is 5 millions of Muslims in western europe prior the recent afghan-syrian migrations. In one hand you have nationalized muslims that hate western civilization, in the other one the one who starve, primarlly men, that the futur generation gonna come enlarge the first ones mentioned.
 
Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.
If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with. :)
 
If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with. :)

Because I don't like liars, demagogues and manipulative politicians who try to hide the deeper problems of their own societies under the carpet to have easier and better electoral gains and avoid being pressured into discussing and proposing concrete and more elaborate solutions - which they don't have at all - instead of such an easy excuse as scapegoating some outsider group, potentially even harming other people (no matter if they are a massive population or a tiny minority). Much less I do like them when all those upsetting things come together into the same people. I think those are more than enough reasons for anyone who enjoyes reasonableness, honesty and truth to be upset about it.
 
Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm
 
The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html)

Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.

Hungary: Violent Swarms of Immigrants Attack Hungarian Border Police
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LD2BGT26qI

Hungarian police block refugees and migrants outside Keleti train station

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deI8-oBqA7g

Migrants in Budapest Keleti railway station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eRQKJOg2FI
 
Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.
The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.

"No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


You are not ignorant...

Soviet Occupation of Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

Hungary Economic Outlook
https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199541621.001.0001/acprof-9780199541621

HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
http://motherearthtravel.com/history/hungary/history-6.htm

DOUBLE OCCUPATION

Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-kiallitas/second_floor/double-occupation
 
Those dastardly rebels on the right
Concerned with impending plight
Voted away plunder
Nations torn asunder
Now sprung a new form of fright
 
Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm

Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.
 
Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.

Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."
 
Europeans should stop holding on to grudges and fears from 600 or 1000 years ago.
 
"No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


You are not ignorant...

Soviet Occupation of Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

Hungary Economic Outlook
https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199541621.001.0001/acprof-9780199541621

HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
http://motherearthtravel.com/history/hungary/history-6.htm

DOUBLE OCCUPATION

Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-kiallitas/second_floor/double-occupation

All very fine, but this is 2018 and we're talking about the public perceptions by third-world people. What happened decades ago or even what real life is there does not matter. Most migrants from far away have this perception that good jobs and social benefits can only be easily found in Western/North Europe, and of course that is why the vast majority of them make no effort to say in the Balkans, Hungary or Poland, they just use those lands as a bridge to their preferred destination. It doesn't really matter what the truth is, but what they think it is, and they just aren't that interested in most of Eastern Europe, as the patterns of the last migration crisis have clearly demonstrated (a real massive horde of people - but the overwhelming majority just passing by). It's based on those "Western" dreams and most often mere illusions that they decide to undergo all sorts of risks.
 
I highly doubt say, a 50 year old electrical engineer from Syria who wants a career in a safe place without having to worry about gas attacks has dreams of Islamic domination of the west; he's migrating to ensure his safety and survival. If anything, he would more than likely despise radical religous rule due to the damage it causes.
 
Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."
Okay, so the implication is that that "horrendous" 0.1-0.3% of Muslim people in the country is a sign of awful things yet to come if nothing is done... It still doesn't explain why on earth this is considered a top priority of the country's politics, especially as they keep ignoring the awful youth and brain drain, the unsustainable demographic trends, obstacles to higher productivity growth and much more. If this was about the USA, Germany or even France or the UK, I'd try harder to be understanding, but, frankly, considering the present context it all sounds like a bit of historic grudge mixed with a lot of paranoia, sensationalism and political diversion.
 

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