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Thread: Upcoming paper on Eurasian steppe population genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.

    Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.

    Herodotus says:

    There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
    Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.

    At the study "Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians", based on mt-dna, the author made the following conclusion:

    On the basis of published data concerning the phylogeography of mt lineages distribution in ancient populations of Europe and Asia, the 19 complete mt genomes of the NPR Iron Age Scythians produced in this study fall into three main groups of different ancestry. The first group of mt lineages is represented by U5 haplotypes that are considered to be a European Hunter-Gatherer genetic component. The second group comprises haplotypes belonging to H, J, T, W and N1b, ultimately connected to the genetic package of the early Neolithic farmers, and the third group includes A, D, M10 and F mt lineages considered to be of East Eurasian origin.
    So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:

    Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, T

    Group-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, R

    Group-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q

    So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.

    Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.

    Herodotus says:

    There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
    Honestly, I'm open to all sorts of possibilities now that I didn't consider very likely in previous times.

    Probably, I was lulled by the relatively simplicity of northern European genetics in relation to the steppe. Starting with the paper on the Mycenaeans and exponentially more so with the Indian paper and, now with these findings, I'm realizing that what I suggested in relationship to the steppe, i.e. that we've been working with a certain simplified "Indo-European for dummies" narrative, and that the reality in most of the world, and perhaps even more so in the east, is far more complicated and nuanced and we'd been led to believe, is correct.


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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.At the study "Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians", based on mt-dna, the author made the following conclusion: So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
    And these types of posts are what has brought me here to begin with. When you look at the regions where blood type frequencies differ from the ones we call the norm, you have hit so many of the ones standing out, I will be busy for a while helping prove connections me and many others have suspected for a while. Thank you for a great post. Even if only partially proven. :)
    If you search this forum for "blood type", "rhesus negative" or "rh negative", you will probably see my posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
    I am wary of assining entire haplogroups, existing for dozens of milennia, and spread in very wide areas, to just a hanful of specific cultures from one particular chronological era, like Halaf, Ubaid or Uruk... but, in a verybroad perspective, I'd argue with your main point, BUT I wouldn't attribute the origin of Scythians to that mix, but the origin of much earlier peoples, especially because Scythians "proper" are a cultural/linguistic/ethnic phenomenon of the Iron Age, thousands of years after the Maykop and Uruk cultural periods, let alone Halaf or Ubaid. I think that description fits much better the birth of Sredny Stog and the precursors of Yamna, and the south-to-north and west-to-east influence from ANF and CHG-related ancestry probably continued during the Bronze Age and led to the later cultures of the steppes, like Catacomb and Andronovo, but these were at best genetic and cultural ancestors to the Scythian phenomenon, still more than 1,000 years earlier. I'd say the main admixture event during the times of the Scythian "proper" dominance in the steppes did not involve the Caucasian/West Asian people, but the gradual introgression and intermixing with Northeast Asian people. The bulk of that mixing of steppe peoples with West Asian-related people had happened much before, in earlier cultures speaking other languages (not just Andronovo, but several others, most probably IE-speaking), only one of which was the mother of Scytho-Sarmatian Iranic languages.

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    I think scythian mistery seems to be in a last stage to be solved. However, I think it is still problem to prove its orgin by anthropology and genetics b/c of their exogamy. They applied exogamy to even their horses.

    Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid
    Moreover, the earliest skulls on pontic steppe are very rare in pontic steppe according to 2017 russian anthropologist paper.

    Archaeologically scythian originated in altai.
    On 2017 east scythian horse is genetically proved to be arctic horses like sinashta horse.

    2017 scythian paper started to focus upon whether they origianted in east according to tri achaeological factors. The paper recognised gene flow from east to west. However they concluded that the flow is just an interaction between east and west, even if west samartian R1b has almost 10% east asian gene, but east scythian (N1b, R1a-z93, Q1a) no EEF gene.

    Another paper on 2017 shows that east scythian and west scythain has the same east asian mtDNA without Hg B. I think it is very important to know what kind of hg west scythian has in this new paper.

    “Comparison of major Hg distributions from modern and ancient populations. Asian main Hg-s are designated with brackets. Major Hg distribution of Conqueror samples from this study are very similar to that of other 91 Conquerors taken from previous studies [11,12]. Scythians and ancient Xiongnus show similar Hg composition to the bracketed Asian fraction of the Conqueror samples, but Hg B is present just in Xiongnus. Modern Hungarians have very small Asian components pointing at small contribution from the Conquerors. Of the 289 modern Hungarian mitogenomes 272 are published in [29]. Scythian Hg-s are from [48,49,55,59,71–74]. Xiongnu Hg-s are from [66–69].”
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/01/19/250688

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
    I don't know why he says what he says but medieval Oghuz Turks could have had the haplogroups he says but also subclades of R, C, N and Q at least.Then, I was the person who noted what Herodotus had said, which is usually misinterpreted, see for example the Wikipedia articles which say pretty much that Herodotus said they came from 'Central Asia' which is false.But 'Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk' are not one thing.Concerning Maykop I think you are wrong but we will find out hopefully.My own views always deviated much from those of Mallory, Antony etc. but I always consider what the data can support so I keep some things to myself. The problem now is that the data can support multiple scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think scythian mistery seems to be in a last stage to be solved. However, I think it is still problem to prove its orgin by anthropology and genetics b/c of their exogamy. They applied exogamy to even their horses.
    We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.

    The terms 'Scythians' and 'Saka' wouldn't have existed without the Greeks and Persians who had used them, and they used them mostly for those who were close to them. For example the Greeks used the term mostly for those nomads from Moldova up to the Caucasus, basically mostly those nomads from Ukraine. Even among those labeled Scythians there were some who were considered different either culturally (for example the 'Scythian agriculturalists') or ethnically (the 'Hellenoscythians' and the Gelonians who were speaking 'half Hellenic half Scythian).

    And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    ....But 'Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk' are not one thing......
    Can you elaborate?

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    A lot of esoteric E sample those recent papers, is it the lack of snp's or there is an interesting story behind those samples ? we will eventually found out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.
    Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.
    Herodotus says:
    There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
    About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.

    The terms 'Scythians' and 'Saka' wouldn't have existed without the Greeks and Persians who had used them, and they used them mostly for those who were close to them. For example the Greeks used the term mostly for those nomads from Moldova up to the Caucasus, basically mostly those nomads from Ukraine. Even among those labeled Scythians there were some who were considered different either culturally (for example the 'Scythian agriculturalists') or ethnically (the 'Hellenoscythians' and the Gelonians who were speaking 'half Hellenic half Scythian).

    And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.
    It would be like stop calling the Celts, Celts. Whatever the ethnic name those tribes gave to themselves, they where part of a same cultural horizon descending from Sintashta / Andronovo, so the broad scythian term can be applied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Can you elaborate?
    I don't know much but Halaf is certainly distinct. It is said that Ubaid expansion made them migrate or adopt foreign cultural elements or both.

    Concerning the other two, I believe there are some who support that Ubaidians represent proto-Sumerians and that there is relative continuity. (Then the question would be when the Semetic speakers migrated and from where exactly.)

    But some say that in Sumerian texts there are toponyms, plant names etc. which aren't Sumerian and therefore think the Ubaidians were speaking that lost language and proto-Sumerians are associated with Uruk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.
    I am 95% sure that Herodotus was talking about the Oxus here, which he often confused with the Araxes. If this is indeed so, crossing the river would mean that the Scythians migrated north from Afghanistan and vicinity (Asia), which indeed would place them in neighbourhood of the Massagetae. From there they wander west into the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Europa).

    I don't know how reliable that account is, but it's interesting that Prof. Witzel places the Proto-Iranians in Central Afghanistan, which he identifies as the mythical Aryanem Vaejah (he's the guy who came up with the Swat Valley Culture = Indo-Aryan connection IIRC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.
    And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often.
    How different between sarmatian and scythian?

    East(archaeology) and west scythian used human skull as drinking cup.
    Their elite have elongate skulls like sarmatian. West scythian hair mode is the same as sarmatian, which I quoted lots of time.

    Sarmatian:



    Ket shaman

    https://moly.hu/zonak/mindent-atszovo-mitoszok?page=3

    Abstracts
    In the mid-first B.C. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the Eurasian steppe, from Hungary to china and siberia. Carried largely by Iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." The precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. Many have stressed antecedents at Ziwiye in Iran while some find sources in China's Western chou culture. Since 1980, the precedence of Arzhan on the uppermpst Yenisey has become evident. A developmental chain from OKUNEVO to karasuk and Tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.

    Conclusion:

    To summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the OKUNEVO culture.
    ----
    In the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. Many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of Hunno-sarmatian tribes, in Celto-Germanic culture, in Viking culture, and in ancient Rusiian Arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    I am 95% sure that Herodotus was talking about the Oxus here, which he often confused with the Araxes. If this is indeed so, crossing the river would mean that the Scythians migrated north from Afghanistan and vicinity (Asia), which indeed would place them in neighbourhood of the Massagetae. From there they wander west into the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Europa). I don't know how reliable that account is, but it's interesting that Prof. Witzel places the Proto-Iranians in Central Afghanistan, which he identifies as the mythical Aryanem Vaejah (he's the guy who came up with the Swat Valley Culture = Indo-Aryan connection IIRC).
    Don't do that. I doubt that people confused Araxes with Oxus 'often'.It's better to dismiss the source all together. Because now you present an Herodotus who is 'confused' but essentially correct and imply he had said things he hasn't said. (Scythians coming from the Swat valley?) It is better to say that geographical knowledge was limited and the account can be wrong or not trustworthy than saying he confused a river for another one.(Confusing one river for another would have been possible if they had the same or similar names in some language of the region. Because he was mostly writing things other people have told him. But in his text in particular he places the 'source' of the river in Matiene. Where do you think he had placed Matiene?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Don't do that. I doubt that people confused Araxes with Oxus 'often'.It's better to dismiss the source all together. Because now you present an Herodotus who is 'confused' but essentially correct and imply he had said things he hasn't said. (Scythians coming from the Swat valley?) It is better to say that geographical knowledge was limited and the account can be wrong or not trustworthy than saying he confused a river for another one.(Confusing one river for another would have been possible if they had the same or similar names in some language of the region. Because he was mostly writing things other people have told him. But in his text in particular he places the 'source' of the river in Matiene. Where do you think he had placed Matiene?)
    It's not my opinion, it's pretty much scholarly consensus. There's no Araxes east of the Caspian. He uses the same name for both rivers, and in this particular quote it's clearly the eastern one.

    From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:



    Scythians aren't Indo-Aryan by the way. But Swat Valley is close to Afghanistan in any case, so the Iranic/Indo-Aryan/Nuristani split could have happened nearby.
    Last edited by markozd; 18-04-18 at 20:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    It's not my opinion, it's pretty much scholarly consensus. There's no Araxes east of the Caspian. He uses the same name for both rivers, and in this particular quote it's clearly the eastern one.

    From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:

    But i was referencing the Cimmerians going in the Middle-East to escape Scythians, how could be the Oxus be related with the Cimmerians going in the Middle-Meast ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But i was referencing the Cimmerians going in the Middle-East to escape Scythians, how could be the Oxus be related with the Cimmerians going in the Middle-Meast ?
    Come on, the account cited by Herodotus clearly implies that the Scythians moved north and ousted the Cimmerians from Eastern Europe. This is well known to students of ancient history - altough I should add that most historians have a tendency to discount this in favor of a more northern origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    Come on, the account cited by Herodotus clearly implies that the Scythians moved north and ousted the Cimmerians from Eastern Europe. This is well known to students of ancient history - altough I should add that most historians have a tendency to discount this in favor of a more northern origin.
    What ? i dont think Herodutus has said that Scythians came from South, meaning Iran. He said they came from beyond a river ( surely the Volga ) and pushed the Cimmerians to migrate into the Middle-East, where they purchase them for a time. Here Cimmerians became mercenaries for Mesopotamians rulers and put an end to the Phrygian Kingdom some times later, before disappear from history. Never eard anything about proper scythians coming from south. Massagaetes, that are believe to be scythians-related where put somewhere near the Amou-Darya and Syr-Darya. But in all greek mentions of Scythians they are localised in the pontic steppe.

    Edit: I just saw that statement in Wikipedia:
    1. Thirdly (4.11), in the version which Herodotus said he believed most, the Scythians came from a more southern part of Central Asia, until a war with the Massagetae (a powerful tribe of steppe nomads who lived just northeast of Persia) forced them westward.

    There is yet another story, to which account I myself especially incline. It is to this effect. The nomadic Scythians inhabiting Asia, when hard pressed in war by the Massagetae, fled across the Araxes1 river to the Cimmerian country (for the country which the Scythians now inhabit is said to have belonged to the Cimmerians before), [2] and the Cimmerians, at the advance of the Scythians, deliberated as men threatened by a great force should. Opinions were divided; both were strongly held, but that of the princes was the more honorable; for the people believed that their part was to withdraw and that there was no need to risk their lives for the dust of the earth; but the princes were for fighting to defend their country against the attackers. [3] Neither side could persuade the other, neither the people the princes nor the princes the people; the one party planned to depart without fighting and leave the country to their enemies, but the princes were determined to lie dead in their own country and not to flee with the people, for they considered how happy their situation had been and what ills were likely to come upon them if they fled from their native land. [4] Having made up their minds, the princes separated into two equal bands and fought with each other until they were all killed by each other's hands; then the Cimmerian people buried them by the Tyras river, where their tombs are still to be seen, and having buried them left the land; and the Scythians came and took possession of the country left empty.

    1 Herodotus' idea of the course of this river is uncertain; cp. Hdt. 1.202. He appears to extend the Araxes, which flowed from the west into the Caspian, into regions east of that sea.
    Looks more like Historians have deliberatly place that South Central Asia reference, because of where they believe that Massagaetes historical territory was. There is no mention of Herodotus of a proper Southern origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I don't know much but Halaf is certainly distinct. It is said that Ubaid expansion made them migrate or adopt foreign cultural elements or both.
    Concerning the other two, I believe there are some who support that Ubaidians represent proto-Sumerians and that there is relative continuity. (Then the question would be when the Semetic speakers migrated and from where exactly.)
    But some say that in Sumerian texts there are toponyms, plant names etc. which aren't Sumerian and therefore think the Ubaidians were speaking that lost language and proto-Sumerians are associated with Uruk.
    Yes. I agree with you. Halaf either is going to be a big surprise (even v88, or J2b) or normal anatolian. I am really curious.
    Now Ubaid is a slow cooking movement. Like a religion. Cant really figure them out. There is whole transitional Halaf_to_ubaid period of 500 years, Hussana clearly comverted to ubaid. As Samarra.
    I have this strange feeling ubaid were calm and curious collaborating. Hassuna e samarra violent. Just a vibe I get from reading.
    Uruk an explosion. I think full J1.

    However, prior to uruk something came from iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post

    And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.
    1. Do you have any Massagetae research paper? Iranian bloggers connect the Massagetae to Saka Prince - Issyk. But I think their royals seems to have okunevo culture with animal art. I want someone to post Massagetae artifacts found in their tomb.
    looks like they seem to be "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style.

    Situated in eastern Scythia just north of Sogdiana, the kurgan contained a skeleton, warrior's equipment, and assorted funerary goods, including 4,000 gold ornaments. Although the sex of the skeleton is uncertain, it may have been an 18-year-old Saka (Scythian) prince or princess.


    http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...ive-americans/

    DAY ONE: 27/10/2017
    Scythians and other early Eurasian nomads: origins and eastern connections
    09.00-09.30 Registration09.30 Dr H. FISCHER (Director of the British Museum): welcome09.35-09.45 Dr St J. SIMPSON (The British Museum): opening remarks
    09.45-10.15 Dr L. S. MARSADOLOV (State Hermitage Museum): The Okunevo Culture of southern Siberia and its links with later Scythian and Tashtyk cultures


    From Herodotus, Strabo and others we hear of peoples like the Scythian Massagetae, a nomad race north-east of the Caspian Sea, who killed old people and ate them.
    2. Budini seems to be Finno scythian. Scythian had red hairs and the highest frequency of red hair is in Udmurt now.
    "An ancient people who lived in Scythia, known only from a description by Herodotus, and conjectured to have been a Finno-Ugric group of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis."

    Finno scythian and okunevo connection also:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...o-people/page2 (post 36)
    Last edited by johen; 19-04-18 at 22:32. Reason: more information

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    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What ? i dont think Herodutus has said that Scythians came from South, meaning Iran. He said they came from beyond a river ( surely the Volga ) and pushed the Cimmerians to migrate into the Middle-East, where they purchase them for a time. Here Cimmerians became mercenaries for Mesopotamians rulers and put an end to the Phrygian Kingdom some times later, before disappear from history. Never eard anything about proper scythians coming from south. Massagaetes, that are believe to be scythians-related where put somewhere near the Amou-Darya and Syr-Darya. But in all greek mentions of Scythians they are localised in the pontic steppe.

    Edit: I just saw that statement in Wikipedia:
    1. Thirdly (4.11), in the version which Herodotus said he believed most, the Scythians came from a more southern part of Central Asia, until a war with the Massagetae (a powerful tribe of steppe nomads who lived just northeast of Persia) forced them westward.

    There is yet another story, to which account I myself especially incline. It is to this effect. The nomadic Scythians inhabiting Asia, when hard pressed in war by the Massagetae, fled across the Araxes1 river to the Cimmerian country (for the country which the Scythians now inhabit is said to have belonged to the Cimmerians before), [2] and the Cimmerians, at the advance of the Scythians, deliberated as men threatened by a great force should. Opinions were divided; both were strongly held, but that of the princes was the more honorable; for the people believed that their part was to withdraw and that there was no need to risk their lives for the dust of the earth; but the princes were for fighting to defend their country against the attackers. [3] Neither side could persuade the other, neither the people the princes nor the princes the people; the one party planned to depart without fighting and leave the country to their enemies, but the princes were determined to lie dead in their own country and not to flee with the people, for they considered how happy their situation had been and what ills were likely to come upon them if they fled from their native land. [4] Having made up their minds, the princes separated into two equal bands and fought with each other until they were all killed by each other's hands; then the Cimmerian people buried them by the Tyras river, where their tombs are still to be seen, and having buried them left the land; and the Scythians came and took possession of the country left empty.

    1 Herodotus' idea of the course of this river is uncertain; cp. Hdt. 1.202. He appears to extend the Araxes, which flowed from the west into the Caspian, into regions east of that sea.
    Looks more like Historians have deliberatly place that South Central Asia reference, because of where they believe that Massagaetes historical territory was. There is no mention of Herodotus of a proper Southern origin.
    Oxus river is what Herodotus meant

    not all cimmerians left ..........we have venetian archive slave papers of cimmerians being taken to Venice pre 1400 from modern Azov
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Valerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Oxus river is what Herodotus meant

    not all cimmerians left ..........we have venetian archive slave papers of cimmerians being taken to Venice pre 1400 from modern Azov
    That's called archaisation - to name conteporary peoples and nations with the ethnonyms of the previous inhabitants that once lived in the same land. That's why you can see Byzantine papers naming the Serbs as Tribali or Cumans as Scythians. The Cimnerians vanished from the world around VI century B.C. probably migrating to Anatolia and what remained in Ukraine was swallowed by the Scythians in the same manner as the Scythians being later devoured by Sarmatians.

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    In case anybody is interested there is some updates on all the J2a from this paper, thanks to the work of OpenGenomes, ddugas, and the team from molgen.

    DA57 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9961
    DA58 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC32749
    DA59 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9983?
    DA124 is J2a-L581>PF4993*
    DA203 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9983
    DA204 is J2a-PF4610 (still needs a further look, update waiting)
    DA220 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9962>FGC32507
    DA230 is J2a-Z7706>Y13535>FGC9962>FGC32747

    According to revealed information DA57, DA58, and DA59 belong to Tien Shan Saki (Scythian), DA124 Tien Shan Medieval Nomad, DA203 and DA204 belong to Central Asian Steppes Karakhanids, DA220 and DA230 belong to Tien Shan Karluks.
    Last edited by Azzurro; 20-04-18 at 22:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    That's called archaisation - to name conteporary peoples and nations with the ethnonyms of the previous inhabitants that once lived in the same land. That's why you can see Byzantine papers naming the Serbs as Tribali or Cumans as Scythians. The Cimnerians vanished from the world around VI century B.C. probably migrating to Anatolia and what remained in Ukraine was swallowed by the Scythians in the same manner as the Scythians being later devoured by Sarmatians.
    so, are you saying they could have been renamed as something else..like

    Circassian or Tartar

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