Upcoming paper on Eurasian steppe population genetics.

E among huns god if you are correct it is big .....
among Scythian could be logic but huns..... that would be a surprise :)
Yea. Although i am not 100% sure.

I think i have figured out which samples are Scythian, which samples are Xiongnu, and which samples are Mongols.

But with the rest of the samples, which should be Turks and Huns i dont know who is who. The two sets of samples look so much alike. One of the only differences is that the first cluster got an E sample, while the second don't. So the E could still be part of the Turkic samples, although i still think it's part of the Huns.

Well, I guess "J" made it out of the Caucasus again.
Yea some of them could be later newcomers from the mountains.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the J2a samples could claim at least a couple thousand of years of continuity on the steppe.
After all, J2a was also found among EHG in the Central and South Asian paper.
 
there are 2 E
1 of them is E-V22

https://yfull.com/tree/E-V22/
and the other 1 is E-m123*
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

valerius the bulgarian from this forum if you reading this you should be excited as this paper found your clade ancestor ..... :)
as you belong to E-PF4428

I must say i'm quite surprised to see my haplo among the Steppe folk but I can't find any info from which period is DA19, where was unearthed and from which archaeological group...
 
We're going to have to wait until the paper comes out.
 
We're going to have to wait until the paper comes out.

Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.

Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.

Herodotus says:

There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
 
Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.

Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.

Herodotus says:

There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.

Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.

At the study "Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians", based on mt-dna, the author made the following conclusion:

On the basis of published data concerning the phylogeography of mt lineages distribution in ancient populations of Europe and Asia, the 19 complete mt genomes of the NPR Iron Age Scythians produced in this study fall into three main groups of different ancestry. The first group of mt lineages is represented by U5 haplotypes that are considered to be a European Hunter-Gatherer genetic component. The second group comprises haplotypes belonging to H, J, T, W and N1b, ultimately connected to the genetic package of the early Neolithic farmers, and the third group includes A, D, M10 and F mt lineages considered to be of East Eurasian origin.

So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:

Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, T

Group-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, R

Group-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q

So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
 
Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.

Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.

Herodotus says:

There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.

Honestly, I'm open to all sorts of possibilities now that I didn't consider very likely in previous times.

Probably, I was lulled by the relatively simplicity of northern European genetics in relation to the steppe. Starting with the paper on the Mycenaeans and exponentially more so with the Indian paper and, now with these findings, I'm realizing that what I suggested in relationship to the steppe, i.e. that we've been working with a certain simplified "Indo-European for dummies" narrative, and that the reality in most of the world, and perhaps even more so in the east, is far more complicated and nuanced and we'd been led to believe, is correct.
 
Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.At the study "Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians", based on mt-dna, the author made the following conclusion: So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
And these types of posts are what has brought me here to begin with. When you look at the regions where blood type frequencies differ from the ones we call the norm, you have hit so many of the ones standing out, I will be busy for a while helping prove connections me and many others have suspected for a while. Thank you for a great post. Even if only partially proven. :)
 
So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.

I am wary of assining entire haplogroups, existing for dozens of milennia, and spread in very wide areas, to just a hanful of specific cultures from one particular chronological era, like Halaf, Ubaid or Uruk... but, in a verybroad perspective, I'd argue with your main point, BUT I wouldn't attribute the origin of Scythians to that mix, but the origin of much earlier peoples, especially because Scythians "proper" are a cultural/linguistic/ethnic phenomenon of the Iron Age, thousands of years after the Maykop and Uruk cultural periods, let alone Halaf or Ubaid. I think that description fits much better the birth of Sredny Stog and the precursors of Yamna, and the south-to-north and west-to-east influence from ANF and CHG-related ancestry probably continued during the Bronze Age and led to the later cultures of the steppes, like Catacomb and Andronovo, but these were at best genetic and cultural ancestors to the Scythian phenomenon, still more than 1,000 years earlier. I'd say the main admixture event during the times of the Scythian "proper" dominance in the steppes did not involve the Caucasian/West Asian people, but the gradual introgression and intermixing with Northeast Asian people. The bulk of that mixing of steppe peoples with West Asian-related people had happened much before, in earlier cultures speaking other languages (not just Andronovo, but several others, most probably IE-speaking), only one of which was the mother of Scytho-Sarmatian Iranic languages.
 
I think scythian mistery seems to be in a last stage to be solved. However, I think it is still problem to prove its orgin by anthropology and genetics b/c of their exogamy. They applied exogamy to even their horses.

Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid

Moreover, the earliest skulls on pontic steppe are very rare in pontic steppe according to 2017 russian anthropologist paper.

Archaeologically scythian originated in altai.
On 2017 east scythian horse is genetically proved to be arctic horses like sinashta horse.

2017 scythian paper started to focus upon whether they origianted in east according to tri achaeological factors. The paper recognised gene flow from east to west. However they concluded that the flow is just an interaction between east and west, even if west samartian R1b has almost 10% east asian gene, but east scythian (N1b, R1a-z93, Q1a) no EEF gene.

Another paper on 2017 shows that east scythian and west scythain has the same east asian mtDNA without Hg B. I think it is very important to know what kind of hg west scythian has in this new paper.
hungarian-conqueror-mtdna.jpg

“Comparison of major Hg distributions from modern and ancient populations. Asian main Hg-s are designated with brackets. Major Hg distribution of Conqueror samples from this study are very similar to that of other 91 Conquerors taken from previous studies [11,12]. Scythians and ancient Xiongnus show similar Hg composition to the bracketed Asian fraction of the Conqueror samples, but Hg B is present just in Xiongnus. Modern Hungarians have very small Asian components pointing at small contribution from the Conquerors. Of the 289 modern Hungarian mitogenomes 272 are published in [29]. Scythian Hg-s are from [48,49,55,59,71–74]. Xiongnu Hg-s are from [66–69].”
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/01/19/250688
 
Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
I don't know why he says what he says but medieval Oghuz Turks could have had the haplogroups he says but also subclades of R, C, N and Q at least.Then, I was the person who noted what Herodotus had said, which is usually misinterpreted, see for example the Wikipedia articles which say pretty much that Herodotus said they came from 'Central Asia' which is false.But 'Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk' are not one thing.Concerning Maykop I think you are wrong but we will find out hopefully.My own views always deviated much from those of Mallory, Antony etc. but I always consider what the data can support so I keep some things to myself. The problem now is that the data can support multiple scenarios.
 
I think scythian mistery seems to be in a last stage to be solved. However, I think it is still problem to prove its orgin by anthropology and genetics b/c of their exogamy. They applied exogamy to even their horses.

We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.

The terms 'Scythians' and 'Saka' wouldn't have existed without the Greeks and Persians who had used them, and they used them mostly for those who were close to them. For example the Greeks used the term mostly for those nomads from Moldova up to the Caucasus, basically mostly those nomads from Ukraine. Even among those labeled Scythians there were some who were considered different either culturally (for example the 'Scythian agriculturalists') or ethnically (the 'Hellenoscythians' and the Gelonians who were speaking 'half Hellenic half Scythian).

And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.
 
A lot of esoteric E sample those recent papers, is it the lack of snp's or there is an interesting story behind those samples ? we will eventually found out.
 
Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.
Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.
Herodotus says:
There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.
 
We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.

The terms 'Scythians' and 'Saka' wouldn't have existed without the Greeks and Persians who had used them, and they used them mostly for those who were close to them. For example the Greeks used the term mostly for those nomads from Moldova up to the Caucasus, basically mostly those nomads from Ukraine. Even among those labeled Scythians there were some who were considered different either culturally (for example the 'Scythian agriculturalists') or ethnically (the 'Hellenoscythians' and the Gelonians who were speaking 'half Hellenic half Scythian).

And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.
It would be like stop calling the Celts, Celts. Whatever the ethnic name those tribes gave to themselves, they where part of a same cultural horizon descending from Sintashta / Andronovo, so the broad scythian term can be applied.
 
Can you elaborate?

I don't know much but Halaf is certainly distinct. It is said that Ubaid expansion made them migrate or adopt foreign cultural elements or both.

Concerning the other two, I believe there are some who support that Ubaidians represent proto-Sumerians and that there is relative continuity. (Then the question would be when the Semetic speakers migrated and from where exactly.)

But some say that in Sumerian texts there are toponyms, plant names etc. which aren't Sumerian and therefore think the Ubaidians were speaking that lost language and proto-Sumerians are associated with Uruk.
 
About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.

I am 95% sure that Herodotus was talking about the Oxus here, which he often confused with the Araxes. If this is indeed so, crossing the river would mean that the Scythians migrated north from Afghanistan and vicinity (Asia), which indeed would place them in neighbourhood of the Massagetae. From there they wander west into the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Europa).

I don't know how reliable that account is, but it's interesting that Prof. Witzel places the Proto-Iranians in Central Afghanistan, which he identifies as the mythical Aryanem Vaejah (he's the guy who came up with the Swat Valley Culture = Indo-Aryan connection IIRC).
 
We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.
And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often.

How different between sarmatian and scythian?

East(archaeology) and west scythian used human skull as drinking cup.
Their elite have elongate skulls like sarmatian. West scythian hair mode is the same as sarmatian, which I quoted lots of time.

Sarmatian:
67576576.jpg

220px-Sarmatian_crown.jpg


Ket shaman
statements_982122.jpg

https://moly.hu/zonak/mindent-atszovo-mitoszok?page=3

Abstracts
In the mid-first B.C. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the Eurasian steppe, from Hungary to china and siberia. Carried largely by Iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." The precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. Many have stressed antecedents at Ziwiye in Iran while some find sources in China's Western chou culture. Since 1980, the precedence of Arzhan on the uppermpst Yenisey has become evident. A developmental chain from OKUNEVO to karasuk and Tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.

Conclusion:

To summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the OKUNEVO culture.
----
In the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. Many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of Hunno-sarmatian tribes, in Celto-Germanic culture, in Viking culture, and in ancient Rusiian Arts.
 
I am 95% sure that Herodotus was talking about the Oxus here, which he often confused with the Araxes. If this is indeed so, crossing the river would mean that the Scythians migrated north from Afghanistan and vicinity (Asia), which indeed would place them in neighbourhood of the Massagetae. From there they wander west into the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Europa). I don't know how reliable that account is, but it's interesting that Prof. Witzel places the Proto-Iranians in Central Afghanistan, which he identifies as the mythical Aryanem Vaejah (he's the guy who came up with the Swat Valley Culture = Indo-Aryan connection IIRC).
Don't do that. I doubt that people confused Araxes with Oxus 'often'.It's better to dismiss the source all together. Because now you present an Herodotus who is 'confused' but essentially correct and imply he had said things he hasn't said. (Scythians coming from the Swat valley?) It is better to say that geographical knowledge was limited and the account can be wrong or not trustworthy than saying he confused a river for another one.(Confusing one river for another would have been possible if they had the same or similar names in some language of the region. Because he was mostly writing things other people have told him. But in his text in particular he places the 'source' of the river in Matiene. Where do you think he had placed Matiene?)
 

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