Upcoming paper on Eurasian steppe population genetics.

Don't do that. I doubt that people confused Araxes with Oxus 'often'.It's better to dismiss the source all together. Because now you present an Herodotus who is 'confused' but essentially correct and imply he had said things he hasn't said. (Scythians coming from the Swat valley?) It is better to say that geographical knowledge was limited and the account can be wrong or not trustworthy than saying he confused a river for another one.(Confusing one river for another would have been possible if they had the same or similar names in some language of the region. Because he was mostly writing things other people have told him. But in his text in particular he places the 'source' of the river in Matiene. Where do you think he had placed Matiene?)

It's not my opinion, it's pretty much scholarly consensus. There's no Araxes east of the Caspian. He uses the same name for both rivers, and in this particular quote it's clearly the eastern one.

From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:

ulngqxm.png


Scythians aren't Indo-Aryan by the way. But Swat Valley is close to Afghanistan in any case, so the Iranic/Indo-Aryan/Nuristani split could have happened nearby.
 
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It's not my opinion, it's pretty much scholarly consensus. There's no Araxes east of the Caspian. He uses the same name for both rivers, and in this particular quote it's clearly the eastern one.

From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:

ulngqxm.png
But i was referencing the Cimmerians going in the Middle-East to escape Scythians, how could be the Oxus be related with the Cimmerians going in the Middle-Meast ?
 
But i was referencing the Cimmerians going in the Middle-East to escape Scythians, how could be the Oxus be related with the Cimmerians going in the Middle-Meast ?

Come on, the account cited by Herodotus clearly implies that the Scythians moved north and ousted the Cimmerians from Eastern Europe. This is well known to students of ancient history - altough I should add that most historians have a tendency to discount this in favor of a more northern origin.
 
Come on, the account cited by Herodotus clearly implies that the Scythians moved north and ousted the Cimmerians from Eastern Europe. This is well known to students of ancient history - altough I should add that most historians have a tendency to discount this in favor of a more northern origin.
What ? i dont think Herodutus has said that Scythians came from South, meaning Iran. He said they came from beyond a river ( surely the Volga ) and pushed the Cimmerians to migrate into the Middle-East, where they purchase them for a time. Here Cimmerians became mercenaries for Mesopotamians rulers and put an end to the Phrygian Kingdom some times later, before disappear from history. Never eard anything about proper scythians coming from south. Massagaetes, that are believe to be scythians-related where put somewhere near the Amou-Darya and Syr-Darya. But in all greek mentions of Scythians they are localised in the pontic steppe.

Edit: I just saw that statement in Wikipedia:
  1. Thirdly (4.11), in the version which Herodotus said he believed most, the Scythians came from a more southern part of Central Asia, until a war with the Massagetae (a powerful tribe of steppe nomads who lived just northeast of Persia) forced them westward.
There is yet another story, to which account I myself especially incline. It is to this effect. The nomadic Scythians inhabiting Asia, when hard pressed in war by the Massagetae, fled across the Araxes1 river to the Cimmerian country (for the country which the Scythians now inhabit is said to have belonged to the Cimmerians before), [2] and the Cimmerians, at the advance of the Scythians, deliberated as men threatened by a great force should. Opinions were divided; both were strongly held, but that of the princes was the more honorable; for the people believed that their part was to withdraw and that there was no need to risk their lives for the dust of the earth; but the princes were for fighting to defend their country against the attackers. [3] Neither side could persuade the other, neither the people the princes nor the princes the people; the one party planned to depart without fighting and leave the country to their enemies, but the princes were determined to lie dead in their own country and not to flee with the people, for they considered how happy their situation had been and what ills were likely to come upon them if they fled from their native land. [4] Having made up their minds, the princes separated into two equal bands and fought with each other until they were all killed by each other's hands; then the Cimmerian people buried them by the Tyras river, where their tombs are still to be seen, and having buried them left the land; and the Scythians came and took possession of the country left empty.

1 Herodotus' idea of the course of this river is uncertain; cp. Hdt. 1.202. He appears to extend the Araxes, which flowed from the west into the Caspian, into regions east of that sea.
Looks more like Historians have deliberatly place that South Central Asia reference, because of where they believe that Massagaetes historical territory was. There is no mention of Herodotus of a proper Southern origin.
 
I don't know much but Halaf is certainly distinct. It is said that Ubaid expansion made them migrate or adopt foreign cultural elements or both.
Concerning the other two, I believe there are some who support that Ubaidians represent proto-Sumerians and that there is relative continuity. (Then the question would be when the Semetic speakers migrated and from where exactly.)
But some say that in Sumerian texts there are toponyms, plant names etc. which aren't Sumerian and therefore think the Ubaidians were speaking that lost language and proto-Sumerians are associated with Uruk.
Yes. I agree with you. Halaf either is going to be a big surprise (even v88, or J2b) or normal anatolian. I am really curious.
Now Ubaid is a slow cooking movement. Like a religion. Cant really figure them out. There is whole transitional Halaf_to_ubaid period of 500 years, Hussana clearly comverted to ubaid. As Samarra.
I have this strange feeling ubaid were calm and curious collaborating. Hassuna e samarra violent. Just a vibe I get from reading.
Uruk an explosion. I think full J1.

However, prior to uruk something came from iran.
 
And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.

1. Do you have any Massagetae research paper? Iranian bloggers connect the Massagetae to Saka Prince - Issyk. But I think their royals seems to have okunevo culture with animal art. I want someone to post Massagetae artifacts found in their tomb.
looks like they seem to be "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style.

Situated in eastern Scythia just north of Sogdiana, the kurgan contained a skeleton, warrior's equipment, and assorted funerary goods, including 4,000 gold ornaments. Although the sex of the skeleton is uncertain, it may have been an 18-year-old Saka (Scythian) prince or princess.

royal-outfit1.jpg

inside_mask_2.jpg

http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...500-years-old-with-links-to-native-americans/

DAY ONE: 27/10/2017
Scythians and other early Eurasian nomads: origins and eastern connections
09.00-09.30 Registration09.30 Dr H. FISCHER (Director of the British Museum): welcome09.35-09.45 Dr St J. SIMPSON (The British Museum): opening remarks
09.45-10.15 Dr L. S. MARSADOLOV (State Hermitage Museum): The Okunevo Culture of southern Siberia and its links with later Scythian and Tashtyk cultures


From Herodotus, Strabo and others we hear of peoples like the Scythian Massagetae, a nomad race north-east of the Caspian Sea, who killed old people and ate them.

2. Budini seems to be Finno scythian. Scythian had red hairs and the highest frequency of red hair is in Udmurt now.
"An ancient people who lived in Scythia, known only from a description by Herodotus, and conjectured to have been a Finno-Ugric group of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis."

Finno scythian and okunevo connection also:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...pean-history-they-are-just-paleo-people/page2 (post 36)
 
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What ? i dont think Herodutus has said that Scythians came from South, meaning Iran. He said they came from beyond a river ( surely the Volga ) and pushed the Cimmerians to migrate into the Middle-East, where they purchase them for a time. Here Cimmerians became mercenaries for Mesopotamians rulers and put an end to the Phrygian Kingdom some times later, before disappear from history. Never eard anything about proper scythians coming from south. Massagaetes, that are believe to be scythians-related where put somewhere near the Amou-Darya and Syr-Darya. But in all greek mentions of Scythians they are localised in the pontic steppe.

Edit: I just saw that statement in Wikipedia:
  1. Thirdly (4.11), in the version which Herodotus said he believed most, the Scythians came from a more southern part of Central Asia, until a war with the Massagetae (a powerful tribe of steppe nomads who lived just northeast of Persia) forced them westward.
There is yet another story, to which account I myself especially incline. It is to this effect. The nomadic Scythians inhabiting Asia, when hard pressed in war by the Massagetae, fled across the Araxes1 river to the Cimmerian country (for the country which the Scythians now inhabit is said to have belonged to the Cimmerians before), [2] and the Cimmerians, at the advance of the Scythians, deliberated as men threatened by a great force should. Opinions were divided; both were strongly held, but that of the princes was the more honorable; for the people believed that their part was to withdraw and that there was no need to risk their lives for the dust of the earth; but the princes were for fighting to defend their country against the attackers. [3] Neither side could persuade the other, neither the people the princes nor the princes the people; the one party planned to depart without fighting and leave the country to their enemies, but the princes were determined to lie dead in their own country and not to flee with the people, for they considered how happy their situation had been and what ills were likely to come upon them if they fled from their native land. [4] Having made up their minds, the princes separated into two equal bands and fought with each other until they were all killed by each other's hands; then the Cimmerian people buried them by the Tyras river, where their tombs are still to be seen, and having buried them left the land; and the Scythians came and took possession of the country left empty.

1 Herodotus' idea of the course of this river is uncertain; cp. Hdt. 1.202. He appears to extend the Araxes, which flowed from the west into the Caspian, into regions east of that sea.
Looks more like Historians have deliberatly place that South Central Asia reference, because of where they believe that Massagaetes historical territory was. There is no mention of Herodotus of a proper Southern origin.

Oxus river is what Herodotus meant

not all cimmerians left ..........we have venetian archive slave papers of cimmerians being taken to Venice pre 1400 from modern Azov
 
Oxus river is what Herodotus meant

not all cimmerians left ..........we have venetian archive slave papers of cimmerians being taken to Venice pre 1400 from modern Azov

That's called archaisation - to name conteporary peoples and nations with the ethnonyms of the previous inhabitants that once lived in the same land. That's why you can see Byzantine papers naming the Serbs as Tribali or Cumans as Scythians. The Cimnerians vanished from the world around VI century B.C. probably migrating to Anatolia and what remained in Ukraine was swallowed by the Scythians in the same manner as the Scythians being later devoured by Sarmatians.
 
In case anybody is interested there is some updates on all the J2a from this paper, thanks to the work of OpenGenomes, ddugas, and the team from molgen.

DA57 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9961
DA58 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC32749
DA59 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9983?
DA124 is J2a-L581>PF4993*
DA203 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9983
DA204 is J2a-PF4610 (still needs a further look, update waiting)
DA220 is J2a-Z7706>Y13534>FGC9962>FGC32507
DA230 is J2a-Z7706>Y13535>FGC9962>FGC32747

According to revealed information DA57, DA58, and DA59 belong to Tien Shan Saki (Scythian), DA124 Tien Shan Medieval Nomad, DA203 and DA204 belong to Central Asian Steppes Karakhanids, DA220 and DA230 belong to Tien Shan Karluks.
 
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That's called archaisation - to name conteporary peoples and nations with the ethnonyms of the previous inhabitants that once lived in the same land. That's why you can see Byzantine papers naming the Serbs as Tribali or Cumans as Scythians. The Cimnerians vanished from the world around VI century B.C. probably migrating to Anatolia and what remained in Ukraine was swallowed by the Scythians in the same manner as the Scythians being later devoured by Sarmatians.
so, are you saying they could have been renamed as something else..like

Circassian or Tartar
 
so, are you saying they could have been renamed as something else..like

Circassian or Tartar

I mean that the tribe Cimmerians simply went extinct 2500 years ago and they do not have any direct descendants. If some people in XIV century, or after that, were called Cimmerians that would be the people who were living in Ukraine back in the day, as you mentioned Circassians, Tatars and Eastern Slavs.
 
OK so by the Iron Age the steppe was very mixed with balkan Farmer, Siberian, and of course EBA_Steppe. Finding a bunch of different Y haplogroups isn't surprising at all, in fact the leading Hunnic tribes, including Attilla, didn't even speak Iranian anymore.
 
It's not my opinion, it's pretty much scholarly consensus. There's no Araxes east of the Caspian. He uses the same name for both rivers, and in this particular quote it's clearly the eastern one.
It is an opinion.
Can you use the primary sources to prove that Oxus was 'often' confused with Araxes?In my opinion it is impossible.

Either way, he says that Scythians crossed a river he calls Araxes which flowed from Matiene and 'entered the land of Cimmeria'.

What he says is therefore fairly clear.

How that is interpreted is something I am not interested in much, but nothing points to what you (or some scholars) had said imo.

And either way, it is not that relevant because similar accounts don't prove anything. They probably show just what some people believed.
 
All of this stuff we're talking about significantly post dates the formation of the Iranians
 
Hey, guys, I am looking for the online dating website. I have my personal interest in greek women but I am not able to find website where I can get all this information. Please help me to find the suitable platform.

Nice man. All geeks waiting for aDNA results you come with refreshing reminder about dating women.
 
Hahahah
Nice man. All geeks waiting for aDNA results you come with refreshing reminder about dating women.


To be fair. I do not blame him. Snacks are snacks(with utmost respect).
 
Hahahah


To be fair. I do not blame him. Snacks are snacks(with utmost respect).

Looks like they banned him? Sad, he was a real Chad. He came in the middle of high-class archeogenetic discussion to remind us about dating. He even had his own preference of Greek women.
 
Looks like they banned him? Sad, he was a real Chad. He came in the middle of high-class archeogenetic discussion to remind us about dating. He even had his own preference of Greek women.

Like a brave hero did his duty. He reminded us that unless we take the effort to spread our seed, Eupedia is doomed. Since there wont be any seed to analyze our deed.

I know I deserve a warning for that. But damn, am I proud.

Edit: Bro that blog he linked was kinda lit ngl.
 
I wonder how the guys here would react if I posted links to sites of almost naked gorgeous men? In my experience, heterosexual guys don't much like it; not because they think it's demeaning, but because they feel inferior, or jealous if their women are looking at it.

Just saying.

Anyway, I'm sure you guys can find dating sites on the internet all by your lonesome; you don't need his link. Plus, it's off topic as anything I've ever seen, so I agree with Jovialis, particularly as the links in these kinds of posts are often virus laden. Hmmm...quite apt, that, in this case.
 

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