Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

[kuzmosi]

The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

[Ygorcs]

YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

Well, 3700 and 3500 years ago leaves us some 1,500-1,700 years or even longer to account for that common origin, a hell of a lot of time for any Y-DNA clade to travel both to Italy and to Saudi Arabia, especially if it had an expansion pattern similar to IE migrations/conquests (which by the Iron Age had reached both the Persian Gulf and Levant, and all of Western Europe, too). Those estimated dates for common ancestry refer much more clearly to a supposed Bronze Age expansion than an expansion during the height of slave trade in the Roman Empire, which was between 1,800-2,000 years ago.

[Maciamo]

YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

Not sure what you are talking about. There were not Italians, nor Romans, nor even Italics 3700 or 3500 years ago. There is hardly any R1a-Z93 in Italy. It's the Asian (Indo-Iranian) branch of R1a. The rare Z93 samples that may be found in Italy would have come from Phoenicians or Middle Eastern immigrants in Roman times (or later).

[Maleth]

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

the E-V13 expansion during bronze age and not Roman period has already been pointed out. Also there was no such thing as thousands of Slaves from Syria. What are termed 'Slaves' were more local and from surrounding lands. If anything Romans recruited many troops from todays E-V13 hotbeds in the balkans.

[Maciamo]

It could be significant for the discussion so I'm attaching the root of the E-V13 tree as it is composed based on the latest available data. The diversity of E-V13 per region should probably be discussed on the level on which are S3003, BY3880, Z16663, BY14151 and Y30976. In that sense Southern Germany indeed does have higher diversity than most of the other regions in Europe, but it is hard to attribute the expansion of E-V13 to Celts based on such argument. In my opinion E-V13 expanded in Europe at the time before the Celts come into play.

As I said above, E-V13 came to Central Europe during the Corded Ware period, so indeed before the Celts. I explained last year that E-V13 was linked to the Corded Ware and Indo-Iranians. In this thread I am explaining how E-V13 was absorbed by Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b tribes around southern Germany and how it then became part of the Italic tribes and Hallstatt Celts, who re-exported that lineage to places like Iberia, France, Belgium, Britain and Ireland. What is going to be the hardest to sorting out the Germanic vs Celtic vs Italic branches of E-V13. Celtic and Italic have the same roots in Tumulus, Urnfield and Hallstatt, and the Germanic branches from the Corded Ware are also closely related. Continental Germanic branches in particular (Frankish, Anglo-Saxon, Lombard) are going to be hard to separate from Celtic ones as Celtic and Germanic tribes lived side by side in central Germany and Belgium.

[Norvila]

Migration period is ignored when majority of roman citizens escaped huns by fleeing to European outskirts. Very rich findings of Vendel period support this. The poorer citizens could only flee to Alps and Balkan mountains. Dense provincies of Pannonia and Noricum became wilderness after Rome abandomed Limes with legions stationed in the cities.
Maciamo theory supports also placenames left by boii celts and greek words in Lithuanian language.

[Maciamo]

Migration period is ignored when majority of roman citizens escaped huns by fleeing to European outskirts. Very rich findings of Vendel period support this. The poorer citizens could only flee to Alps and Balkan mountains. Dense provincies of Pannonia and Noricum became wilderness after Rome abandomed Limes with legions stationed in the cities.

It's very hard to estimate what percentage of the population fled, and how many of them returned after the Huns were defeated. After all, the Hunnic domination of Roman provinces like Pannonia and Noricum only last a few decades in the first half of the 5th century (until Attila's death in 453).

Maciamo theory supports also placenames left by boii celts and greek words in Lithuanian language.

Why is that?

[Trojet]

Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:
- L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.
- Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.
- Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.

Trojet has more and knows them more in depth. I only have this image that he made. He is busy with work I'm sure he will visit when more free and fill in some gaps : D

That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It is simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to, and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not far off in this regard, considering current state of knowledge. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades of E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't seem to go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

[Johane Derite]

That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It's simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not off in this regard. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades or E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

Thanks Trojet!

[blevins13]

As I said above, E-V13 came to Central Europe during the Corded Ware period, so indeed before the Celts. I explained last year that E-V13 was linked to the Corded Ware and Indo-Iranians. In this thread I am explaining how E-V13 was absorbed by Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b tribes around southern Germany and how it then became part of the Italic tribes and Hallstatt Celts, who re-exported that lineage to places like Iberia, France, Belgium, Britain and Ireland. What is going to be the hardest to sorting out the Germanic vs Celtic vs Italic branches of E-V13. Celtic and Italic have the same roots in Tumulus, Urnfield and Hallstatt, and the Germanic branches from the Corded Ware are also closely related. Continental Germanic branches in particular (Frankish, Anglo-Saxon, Lombard) are going to be hard to separate from Celtic ones as Celtic and Germanic tribes lived side by side in central Germany and Belgium.

Interesting....but still not clear how became major haplogroup in Peloponnesus.....


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[Ownstyler]

In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

If we're trying to see where the subclades came from, shouldn't we be looking at regional rather than exclusively Albanian subclades? It's clear that cultural and linguistic identities have shifted continuously since Antiquity so subclades that are not ethnically homogenous today might have been in the past. I2a and some R1a groups heavily settled the region in the early Middle Ages, but the peoples high in I2a and R1a today also have R1b, J2 and E-V13. That means they were assimilated by the newcomers. Before those migrations though, they were most likely part of the native peoples. The point is that if there is a subclade of E-V13 that has a TMRCA of more than 2000 years, but is regionally spread today, the subclade was already there 2000 years ago.

IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

I think the fact that these "Albanian" subclades converge to about 4000 years, but they are generally only around 1000-2000 years old within themselves, suggests a common ancestry but also a serious population bottleneck that ended around the time these new subclades emerged. Either there was a population decrease, or most of the people who shared that ancestry were assimilated into other groups (or both).

[Trojet]

If we're trying to see where the subclades came from, shouldn't we be looking at regional rather than exclusively Albanian subclades? It's clear that cultural and linguistic identities have shifted continuously since Antiquity so subclades that are not ethnically homogenous today might have been in the past. I2a and some R1a groups heavily settled the region in the early Middle Ages, but the peoples high in I2a and R1a today also have R1b, J2 and E-V13. That means they were assimilated by the newcomers. Before those migrations though, they were most likely part of the native peoples. The point is that if there is a subclade of E-V13 that has a TMRCA of more than 2000 years, but is regionally spread today, the subclade was already there 2000 years ago.
I think the fact that these "Albanian" subclades converge to about 4000 years, but they are generally only around 1000-2000 years old within themselves, suggests a common ancestry but also a serious population bottleneck that ended around the time these new subclades emerged. Either there was a population decrease, or most of the people who shared that ancestry were assimilated into other groups (or both).

Yes, I was taking into account regional diversity within these subclades. So the better wording should've been predominantly instead of exclusively Albanian. As I stated in the original post though, I expect this to change as more people get tested in higher resolution tests. Simply, the observation is based on available data. Also, keep in mind that I never said that these subclades all of a sudden just showed up in Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages ;)

Exactly, a bottleneck would be a reason why we get this phenomenon, which would lead to the things I mentioned..

[Expredel]

Not sure what you are talking about. There were not Italians, nor Romans, nor even Italics 3700 or 3500 years ago. There is hardly any R1a-Z93 in Italy. It's the Asian (Indo-Iranian) branch of R1a. The rare Z93 samples that may be found in Italy would have come from Phoenicians or Middle Eastern immigrants in Roman times (or later).

Their common ancestor lived 3500 and 3700 years ago, of course using yfull dating, which is probably the most accurate estimate anyways.

Things will get interesting when yfull gets more samples, because the data then becomes like an hourglass, we'll be able to see clearly when a lineage left country A for B, and we can see when a lineage begins branching out in country B.

I've checked out the Hallstatt article on Wikipedia and it's very badly sourced. It's unclear to me what criteria are used for inclusion in the Hallstatt culture, and how these criteria are applied to create these maps. Slightly off-topic, but do any maps exist of all burial mounds, with information about type and age?

[Maciamo]

Interesting....but still not clear how became major haplogroup in Peloponnesus.....

The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.

[blevins13]

The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.

So Mycenaeans were part of the Hallstatt culture....


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[Trojet]

The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.

There is some Greek haplotypes matching with Albanians, so some of it is Albanian/Arvanite.

[Maleth]

@Expredel

the E-V13 expansion during bronze age and not Roman period has already been pointed out. Also there was no such thing as thousands of Slaves from Syria. What are termed 'Slaves' were more local and from surrounding lands. If anything Romans recruited many troops from todays E-V13 hotbeds in the balkans.

quote:- Generally slaves in Italy were indigenous Italians,^[43] with a minority of foreigners (including both slaves and freedmen) born outside of Italy estimated at 5% of the total in the capital, where their number was largest, at its peak. Those from outside of Europe were predominantly of Greek descent, while the Jewish ones never fully assimilated into Roman society, remaining an identifiable minority.- unquote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome

[Power77]

I don’t buy for a second that this marker is connected (or has ever been so for that matter) to either Celts or Germanics. After all, E-V13 has yet to appear in ancient Celtic and Germanic remains.

[Zanatis]

Looking at its distribution in Spain, E-V13 looks indeed like an early Celtic haplogroup.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Is it this admixture that made the U152 branch less NW Euro admixed than the L21 branch, as if so this could be a good candidate for Alpinisation/Dinaricisation in that region.

Whatever the case, the much lower levels of red hair in U152 territory (I'll exclude the Italians because of the obvious Med. admixture) have to come from some form of admixture event.

[Dibran]

That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It is simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to, and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not far off in this regard, considering current state of knowledge. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades of E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't seem to go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

Kelmandasi's Maternal grandfather from Mali, Dibra, is basal E-CTS5856* which seems to be older than 4200ypb. Granted I think that is the first case for Albanians so I imagine its not indicative of Albanian specific clades. Still interesting though. If more Albanians in Diber and elsewhere pop up with a similar clade as his grandfathers, it could be another one added to the tree. You know more about this stuff though, so I leave it to you lol.

[Kelmendasi]

Kelmandasi's Maternal grandfather from Mali, Dibra, is basal E-CTS5856* which seems to be older than 4200ypb. Granted I think that is the first case for Albanians so I imagine its not indicative of Albanian specific clades. Still interesting though. If more Albanians in Diber and elsewhere pop up with a similar clade as his grandfathers, it could be another one added to the tree. You know more about this stuff though, so I leave it to you lol.

They are from Borova in Dibra, the surname is Mali

[Dibran]

They are from Borova in Dibra, the surname is Mali

Ah. Graci. lol Thought from a place named Mali. Now I recall you mentioned that was the surname. I type on the fly. lmao

[Kelmendasi]

Ah. Graci. lol Thought from a place named Mali. Now I recall you mentioned that was the surname. I type on the fly. lmao

No problemo broski.

[Zanatis]

The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

The Rakonjac tested were from Serbia or Montenegro (Bijelo Polje) and the clan claims to be from Kuci, Montenegro. Where did you get the information that they're Cuman?