Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

[Aspurg]

The Rakonjac tested were from Serbia or Montenegro (Bijelo Polje) and the clan claims to be from Kuci, Montenegro. Where did you get the information that they're Cuman?

He got it from me and I am from Rakonjac clan. :) Rakonjac belong to a completely different clade to Kuchi. Among some branches of our family it was popular to say that we are "from Kuchi", but I always doubted it as our surname is very old and actually in 1645 when our family was attested in the Bijelo Polje area there were no Kuchi around, or various other Brda clans. We do not have genetic relatives in Kuchi, we do not have any genetic relatives anywhere other than one likely Bosniak from Tuzla area, and two other Serbian families from Rudnik area, who have more distant origin from Peshter area near Sjenica and Bijelo Polje. Villages from where these families have ancestry from had without any doubt Cuman traces. I cannot say who they are because this information has not yet been published in an upcoming study.


We have close relatives in Sofiya, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and from recent study of Serbia two relatives. One is from Vranje area, the other most likely from Pirot area near Bulgarian border. As I have been informed that these haplotypes do not appear among Serbs from those areas in this large upcoming study, that increases the likelihood these might be Bulgarians from places like Bosilegrad etc. Also one haplotype from Grevena area is related to us. And not to forget, one haplotype from Kalmykia is very likely relatively closely related to us.
Because these related haplotypes are close but more diversified it is literally impossible that our clan are not recent arrivals (Medieval 700 years ago) from the Shop region.


And there is a mountain of other sort of evidence agreeing with it. The place from where we derive our surname village Rakonje from Bijelo Polje is already mentioned in ottoman census of 1485, as mezra Spocha also known as Rakon , in hand of Subasha Ahmed who was a known ottoman magnate in the area in 15th century. mezra (uninhabited land) belonged to monastery of Nikoljac in Bijelo Polje. Second name in turkish sefters usually designates the tribal group. For example the Vasojevich village in same census is attested as Rjecica also known as Vasojevic. Member of our family with our same surname was mentioned in 1645 to have been ktitor (who builds or provides funds for reconstruction of churches or monasteries) of the same monastery, and that is actually clear evidence Rakonjac family were ktitors of the same monastery in 16th century and also in 15th century.


The most reliable tradition about the origin of Rakonjac family has proven to be the one from a branch in Rudnik area who according to their tradition arrived there 400 or more years ago. They said the old surname was Popovic, that they came from Sjenica/Peshter area. They mentioned no Kuchi whatsoever. Also the second tradition from the another Sjenica branch mentiones no Kuchi.


Indeed in Ottoman census data of 16th century, albeit surnames were rare on two places in Sjenica area the surname of Popovic was mentioned. This was a community of voynuk status, who even possessed timars and were part of the Ottoman system.


Only such people could have been ktitors of an important monastery in those times.


The tradition of (some) Rakonjac descending from Kuchi was not accepted by prof. Lutovac in his book about Bihor and Korita area, simply because this family even then was known to have been present in Bijelo Polje area before the Ottoman-Austrian wars of 1683-1697. Prior to those times the population of Lim area was very similar to Medieval, no Kuchi, Vasojevici and other clans from the South. After the events of Ottoman-Austrian wars there was a huge migration of Serbian population and then came Brda clans and others. Rakonjac family then began to lose influence we had before and our status. There was a battle with Ottomans involving Kuchi in Bijelo Polje in late 17th century so some of our elements might have "added" themselves to Kuchi.


But Rakonjac tradition about Kuchi is made up, and has no basis in genetics nor documentary evidence. Neither our family descends from them nor do they come from there.


Besides Rakonjac family has far more prominent origins than Kuchi, or just about almost anybody. :)
On the court of Serbian ruler Despote Stefan Lazarevic in 1422 a certain Novak Kumaničić was mentioned. This family is assumed to descend from Bijelo Polje-Brodarevo area. There is an old monastery of Kumanica north of Bijelo Polje. There is a second monastery of Kumanica in Rudnik certainly connected to this Kumaničić family.

In addition there is clear evidence that there was a population of Cuman origin in the area of Bijelo Polje and Rudnik and that we are this population. Long before Hungarians were tested I have learned of it.
Kuzmosi seems 2300 years distant from us but there is a second Kungarian family, Gyorffi from Karcag who are much closer to Rakonjac, 1000-1300 years. This is a known family, and Cuman statues in Karcag (founded by Cumans) were made by their member.:)


Not only that we come from Bulgaria, our ancestors even still spoke Bulgarian in Bijelo Polje area. Names of villages such as Razhdagina (Bulgarian zhd as opposed to Serbian đ/dj, Razhdane/Rađanje, one of those other families has some ties with this village) actually and even Peshter itself is a "cave" in Bulgarian. Also the village Boljare (Bolyars), Krće (attested in Ottoman documents as Kirovche), I can go on and on. Can be also seen by names of some timar holders in 15th century.


In 1254 Dubrovnik had a conflict with Serbia, also a claimant to Serbian throne was with them, Dubrovnik had a pact with Bulgaria and called Bulgarians for help. In 1253/4 Bulgarian or Bulgarian/Cuman army did reach precisely Bijelo Polje area and they ransacked the monastery of St. Peter and stole relics. It is one tempting ways for arrival of our family because we just don't have any close relatives among Serbs but we do in Bulgaria/Macedonia.


Second option the lords of Braničevo area Darman and Kudelin were in conflict with Serbia and in 1292 they were defeated, presumably killed. In one village next to Bijelo Polje that I know must be connected to us both personal names of Darman and Kudelin were mentioned. That would be the only such occurrence anywhere, and hint we are their descendants, or at the very least related.


Rakon as the basis of our surname was also in the Bijelo Polje area mentioned as Rajkun (Raykun), it seems to have been some sort of tribal name because it occurs usually as "second name" not fathers name. I have found it on one place in Bulgaria in 16th century. Near Plovdiv in the same village where it is found name Kuman was attested as was another unique name Kosko, in Bulgarian there is a form Kusko which means short but that is the only such form anywhere found in Bulgaria, and according to Hungarian author Peter Kun there was a Cuman name Qosqa which means "bald". In addition in a village next to that village (Kuchuk Rogozh) there are the only two instances in Bulgaria, that I know of, of the Cuman name Kunbek. Kipchak form is Bek, Oghuz is Bey.


Rakonjac, Popovic, Kumanicic was not out oldest clan name. I know what it is, 500 years ago it was ancient.


Interestingly of these families tho are our close relatives (one has a very Bulgarian-like surname) they hail near the village Baljen on Peshter or Balinova in census. It seems based on Cuman personal name of Balik, but also on a Cuman city of Balin in Black Cumania, mentioned in early 12th century.


About genetics, already it seems obvious our particular haplogroup expanded not from the Balkans but from the East. Based on my 111 STR calculations TMRCA for all of us cannot go past 2500 years (probably between 2300 and 2500), and that also includes Russian families of Schepak, Mineev and Ponomarev (for now), who among them are not close. Also 3 Megrelians from Georgia are likely to be related to us. And actually one of them is connected to an East Azeri from northern Iran and that was on a small sample of only 21. Considering of whom we descend from it's completely expected there would be Azeri cousins.
Also it seems Schepak has a relative in Sofiya where we have a close relative. Sofiya area had large amount of Cuman traces.


Because Kumaničić family was powerful and aware of their ancestry I know our descend 600 years ago, 800, 1000, 1300, 1600, 1900, etc. which is not something vast majority of people will ever know for their ancestry. :)


Rakonjac family has association to monasteries. Actually in early 14th century there was some Cuman like population in north Kosovo area, that had the status of Sokalnik, because of some names they might have had connection with Bijelo Polje area. Sokalniks served monasteries, I wonder whether that was some punishment for some earlier Cuman behavior. :)


These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

[Johane Derite]

These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?

"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."

Seriously, insane.

NARTË mb.

• I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.

[LABERIA]

Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?

"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."

Seriously, insane.

NARTË mb.

• I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.

And this is Narta Lagoon in South Albania:


This is Narta River in Chameria, today this region is annexed by Greece and Greeks changed the name in Arachthos river:

[Zanatis]

I was about to point out the Narta thing but I see I'm late.

As for your subclade, I don't doubt that you come from Bulgaria as you seem to have dug deep but in the same time it seems to me your ancestors could have been simply an assimilated local, such as a Vlach or Albanian. If they came indeed from modern Bulgaria then Vlach would be the one to go, but if they came from Macedonia or even Serbia then both ethnicities could be considered.

[Johane Derite]

These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? Montenegro specifically. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."

**edited for mistake**

[Kelmendasi]

What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? But Bijelo Polje that you mention here and the "weird names" you point to. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."

Interestingly enough, the Palbardhi/Bjelopavlici are E-V13>Z16988 like Kelmendi although are pretty distant if you take TMRCA into account but it's still interesting and I have heard some Albanians claim that their families are from Palbardhi which makes me think that the Bjelopavlici/Palbardhi were either Albanians originally or had an Albanian branch. Also Kuqi originally claim to have come from the Berisha e Kuqe branch of Berisha, they were catholic and Albanian before becoming Orthodox and "Serb", the Kuqi still has Albanians in it, Luhari, Fundina etc are still all Albanian villages for example also the Kuqi are E-V13>Z16661 which is the same as the Bankeqi brotherhood of Trieshi although they are pretty distant but it further establishes that Kuqi were all Albanian before, also they were recorded as being Catholic and Albanian by Mariano Bozzila in the 17th century as well as the founder of the Drekali was recorded as being a catholic.

[Milan.M]

He got it from me and I am from Rakonjac clan. :) Rakonjac belong to a completely different clade to Kuchi. Among some branches of our family it was popular to say that we are "from Kuchi", but I always doubted it as our surname is very old and actually in 1645 when our family was attested in the Bijelo Polje area there were no Kuchi around, or various other Brda clans. We do not have genetic relatives in Kuchi, we do not have any genetic relatives anywhere other than one likely Bosniak from Tuzla area, and two other Serbian families from Rudnik area, who have more distant origin from Peshter area near Sjenica and Bijelo Polje. Villages from where these families have ancestry from had without any doubt Cuman traces. I cannot say who they are because this information has not yet been published in an upcoming study.
We have close relatives in Sofiya, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and from recent study of Serbia two relatives. One is from Vranje area, the other most likely from Pirot area near Bulgarian border. As I have been informed that these haplotypes do not appear among Serbs from those areas in this large upcoming study, that increases the likelihood these might be Bulgarians from places like Bosilegrad etc. Also one haplotype from Grevena area is related to us. And not to forget, one haplotype from Kalmykia is very likely relatively closely related to us.
Because these related haplotypes are close but more diversified it is literally impossible that our clan are not recent arrivals (Medieval 700 years ago) from the Shop region.
And there is a mountain of other sort of evidence agreeing with it. The place from where we derive our surname village Rakonje from Bijelo Polje is already mentioned in ottoman census of 1485, as mezra Spocha also known as Rakon , in hand of Subasha Ahmed who was a known ottoman magnate in the area in 15th century. mezra (uninhabited land) belonged to monastery of Nikoljac in Bijelo Polje. Second name in turkish sefters usually designates the tribal group. For example the Vasojevich village in same census is attested as Rjecica also known as Vasojevic. Member of our family with our same surname was mentioned in 1645 to have been ktitor (who builds or provides funds for reconstruction of churches or monasteries) of the same monastery, and that is actually clear evidence Rakonjac family were ktitors of the same monastery in 16th century and also in 15th century.
The most reliable tradition about the origin of Rakonjac family has proven to be the one from a branch in Rudnik area who according to their tradition arrived there 400 or more years ago. They said the old surname was Popovic, that they came from Sjenica/Peshter area. They mentioned no Kuchi whatsoever. Also the second tradition from the another Sjenica branch mentiones no Kuchi.
Indeed in Ottoman census data of 16th century, albeit surnames were rare on two places in Sjenica area the surname of Popovic was mentioned. This was a community of voynuk status, who even possessed timars and were part of the Ottoman system.
Only such people could have been ktitors of an important monastery in those times.
The tradition of (some) Rakonjac descending from Kuchi was not accepted by prof. Lutovac in his book about Bihor and Korita area, simply because this family even then was known to have been present in Bijelo Polje area before the Ottoman-Austrian wars of 1683-1697. Prior to those times the population of Lim area was very similar to Medieval, no Kuchi, Vasojevici and other clans from the South. After the events of Ottoman-Austrian wars there was a huge migration of Serbian population and then came Brda clans and others. Rakonjac family then began to lose influence we had before and our status. There was a battle with Ottomans involving Kuchi in Bijelo Polje in late 17th century so some of our elements might have "added" themselves to Kuchi.
But Rakonjac tradition about Kuchi is made up, and has no basis in genetics nor documentary evidence. Neither our family descends from them nor do they come from there.
Besides Rakonjac family has far more prominent origins than Kuchi, or just about almost anybody. :)
On the court of Serbian ruler Despote Stefan Lazarevic in 1422 a certain Novak Kumaničić was mentioned. This family is assumed to descend from Bijelo Polje-Brodarevo area. There is an old monastery of Kumanica north of Bijelo Polje. There is a second monastery of Kumanica in Rudnik certainly connected to this Kumaničić family.
In addition there is clear evidence that there was a population of Cuman origin in the area of Bijelo Polje and Rudnik and that we are this population. Long before Hungarians were tested I have learned of it.
Kuzmosi seems 2300 years distant from us but there is a second Kungarian family, Gyorffi from Karcag who are much closer to Rakonjac, 1000-1300 years. This is a known family, and Cuman statues in Karcag (founded by Cumans) were made by their member.:)
Not only that we come from Bulgaria, our ancestors even still spoke Bulgarian in Bijelo Polje area. Names of villages such as Razhdagina (Bulgarian zhd as opposed to Serbian đ/dj, Razhdane/Rađanje, one of those other families has some ties with this village) actually and even Peshter itself is a "cave" in Bulgarian. Also the village Boljare (Bolyars), Krće (attested in Ottoman documents as Kirovche), I can go on and on. Can be also seen by names of some timar holders in 15th century.
In 1254 Dubrovnik had a conflict with Serbia, also a claimant to Serbian throne was with them, Dubrovnik had a pact with Bulgaria and called Bulgarians for help. In 1253/4 Bulgarian or Bulgarian/Cuman army did reach precisely Bijelo Polje area and they ransacked the monastery of St. Peter and stole relics. It is one tempting ways for arrival of our family because we just don't have any close relatives among Serbs but we do in Bulgaria/Macedonia.
Second option the lords of Braničevo area Darman and Kudelin were in conflict with Serbia and in 1292 they were defeated, presumably killed. In one village next to Bijelo Polje that I know must be connected to us both personal names of Darman and Kudelin were mentioned. That would be the only such occurrence anywhere, and hint we are their descendants, or at the very least related.
Rakon as the basis of our surname was also in the Bijelo Polje area mentioned as Rajkun (Raykun), it seems to have been some sort of tribal name because it occurs usually as "second name" not fathers name. I have found it on one place in Bulgaria in 16th century. Near Plovdiv in the same village where it is found name Kuman was attested as was another unique name Kosko, in Bulgarian there is a form Kusko which means short but that is the only such form anywhere found in Bulgaria, and according to Hungarian author Peter Kun there was a Cuman name Qosqa which means "bald". In addition in a village next to that village (Kuchuk Rogozh) there are the only two instances in Bulgaria, that I know of, of the Cuman name Kunbek. Kipchak form is Bek, Oghuz is Bey.
Rakonjac, Popovic, Kumanicic was not out oldest clan name. I know what it is, 500 years ago it was ancient.
Interestingly of these families tho are our close relatives (one has a very Bulgarian-like surname) they hail near the village Baljen on Peshter or Balinova in census. It seems based on Cuman personal name of Balik, but also on a Cuman city of Balin in Black Cumania, mentioned in early 12th century.
About genetics, already it seems obvious our particular haplogroup expanded not from the Balkans but from the East. Based on my 111 STR calculations TMRCA for all of us cannot go past 2500 years (probably between 2300 and 2500), and that also includes Russian families of Schepak, Mineev and Ponomarev (for now), who among them are not close. Also 3 Megrelians from Georgia are likely to be related to us. And actually one of them is connected to an East Azeri from northern Iran and that was on a small sample of only 21. Considering of whom we descend from it's completely expected there would be Azeri cousins.
Also it seems Schepak has a relative in Sofiya where we have a close relative. Sofiya area had large amount of Cuman traces.
Because Kumaničić family was powerful and aware of their ancestry I know our descend 600 years ago, 800, 1000, 1300, 1600, 1900, etc. which is not something vast majority of people will ever know for their ancestry. :)
Rakonjac family has association to monasteries. Actually in early 14th century there was some Cuman like population in north Kosovo area, that had the status of Sokalnik, because of some names they might have had connection with Bijelo Polje area. Sokalniks served monasteries, I wonder whether that was some punishment for some earlier Cuman behavior. :)
These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

Interesting thought there by no doubt should be Cuman lineages among Balkan people mostly Bulgaria,Serbia and Hungary as they were employed like soldiers many of whom reached even noble rank,many places names trough the Balkan has their name,about genetics this has maybe yet to be determined even I admire your deep research. For myself I could get back to my paternal ancestry gathered from relatives that they were living in Orahovac in Kosovo from where after the Austro-Turkish war 1778-1791 migrated in the mountains that are on present border between Serbia,Macedonia and Bulgaria from where I have more detailed information about my ancestors.There was Ottoman retaliation after the war and many fled to mountains or outside the Ottoman empire.

[Aspurg]

Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?


"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."


Seriously, insane.


NARTË mb.
I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.

And this is Narta Lagoon in South Albania:
This is Narta River in Chameria, today this region is annexed by Greece and Greeks changed the name in Arachthos river:

You are correct that such toponyms are found, and their story is different. But I still think my ancestors have kept their ways for so long for this cult to have survived. They have done it for other of our traditions so why not that as well. Also they were in contact with Alans, they might have picked it up from them too.

"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."

Which was visited by a Bulgarian-Cuman army in 1254.

I was about to point out the Narta thing but I see I'm late.


As for your subclade, I don't doubt that you come from Bulgaria as you seem to have dug deep but in the same time it seems to me your ancestors could have been simply an assimilated local, such as a Vlach or Albanian.

Could have but they are not. However the Vlachs did assimilate some Cumans.

or Albanian.

We do have distant cousins among Albanians of the clade Z38456. However neither among commercially tested Albanians, nor among any Albanians from scientific studies are my haplotypes found.

If they came indeed from modern Bulgaria then Vlach would be the one to go, but if they came from Macedonia or even Serbia then both ethnicities could be considered.

I have considered and rejected any notion that we descend from paleo-balkan population in a historical sense, that is past 2600-3000 years. That is indeed the narrative for the vast majority of Balkan V13 but as it seems not for us. Generalizations (that all E-V13 are of recent Balkanic origin) often lead to wrong conclusions, for example such that the entire Slavic I2-CTS10228 is Slavic, even though the branch A2512 is not.


Already as I have said calculations on 111 STR markers show my clan being genetically closer to three Russian families than to any other Balkan V13.


There are also close relatives from Romania. But this Romanian might be of Hungarian origin because Cluj was full of Hungarians or he's a Cuman from there because Romania was full with Cumans. Additionally 2 haplotypes from Ploiesti area are likely related, near Ploiesti there are several toponyms of Dărmănești.


For Hungarians, I do not think that fact that the Hungarian authors consider Kuzmos a Cuman surname can be ignored nor that my close relatives from Karcag also seem to claim such descend. Some prominent Hungarian historians from that family wrote books on Cumans, even went on to study their language.


Even on a quick survey of let's say Ukrainian study from Lviv I can see that on a sample of 154 there are two haplotypes that are certainly Z17107* (Z38456-), one related from Ukrainian from the same region and second related to Schepak. That makes it 1.3 % in Lvov area. Among Serbs and Albanians percentage is 0.08 % and 0 % respectively. Because the population in the East is so much larger there might be more of Z17107* among Ukrainians, Russians than there are for example Z34856 Albanians.


I think Z17107* is Balkanic as much as I2-CTS12208 is Central-European or Germanic or less so because Z17107 has been present in th East before I2-CTS12208 if one goes by Bastarnae theory.


Actually there exists evidence that I would even go as far to call irrefutable that we are descendants ultimately of these Gelonians. I don't think they were Greek, but Cimmerian, as does every archaeological authority on them such as Schramko. Works both ways genetically, there are Z34856 in Asia Minor Greeks but there are also some very isolated clades of Z17107* in the East. Most people knowing what I know (which is alot more than you on such topics :) ) would have come to the same conclusion.
Which might be good for my distant cousins from Dibrri clan, I'm sure they'd prefer to descend from Thraco-Illyrians rather than Greeks.:) Cimmerians were intermingled with Thracians that is why the whole archaeological complex is often called "Thraco-Cimmerian", but there were also Illyrian-like influences, so I'm not excluding anything for Z17107.
I think the realistic TMRCA for Z17107 is 3000 ypb or close to that.


Gelonians were subsequently Royal Scythians and around 400 BC one of "lesser kings" of Scythia was a Gelonian. If you think I will go down from Royal Scythians or my ancestors standing at the side of our glorious ruler Kubrat for "Balkans" I won't. I think in these "internet circles" there is hardly anybody who would exchange Royal Scythians for anything in the Balkans. :)


Essentially you posted 5-6 shorter senctences, I responded to you by tenfolds in a substantiated manner, because I want others to read it as well. If I ever am proven wrong so be it, but I don't think I will because for the past year the more information that I have gathered the more I was convinced of being correct.


Actually my explanation of our surname is a combination of Ray+Kun or Qun which is also how Cumans called themselves. Because in Plovdiv area there is clear evidence that "Kun" was participating as a part in a compound name (Raykun + Kunbek). In Russia there is such surname Raykun, who knows, might have something to do with it.

Also not to forget that immediately West of Bijelo Polje there is a village Kunovača. Our clan's area was always the area West of Bijelo Polje that is called "Komaran", not the Bihor (East of BP) itself. Also there is a second village Rakonjska deep in Komaran area, our family was expelled from there 200 years ago during the times of First Serbian Uprising. And also the Peshter now I know is fundamentally connected to us. Actually a known Romanian historian Andrei Oțetea claimed that etymologically this Komaran area West of Bijelo Polje had Cuman origins, but I think that is more speculative.

[Aspurg]

What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? Montenegro specifically. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."

**edited for mistake**

I spoke already about Kuchi on poreklo. IMO Kuchi likely did speak Albanian originally.

In 1485 census, a large amount of Albanian names was recorded in Kuchi area. There were 3 populations:
1. few villages with totally Slavic names (likely some R1a M458 and maybe some others who descend from Kuchi)
2. villages with largely Albanian names such as Bankeq.
Bonkeq are also the same E-Z16661 clade as Ortodox Kuchi, but it is obvious that Bonkeqi spoke Albanian in 1485.
3. Largest village Pantalesh had a mixture of Albanian/Serbian names and they represent a population that was partly or fully slavicised. Those are Kuchi who are mentioned in 1455 documents as being Orthodox. Village name Pantalesh stands for their ancestor Panta, who is the ancestor of Mrnjavčići, but based on census data it was likely his father was Lesh.

In the next census in 1497 it can be seen that the population of albanophone villages increased significantly. As their villages were small in 1485, possibly catholic Albanian Kuchi started migrating there only later in 15th century, so after Ortodox Kuchi.

First mention of Kuč was a Petar Kuč in the catun of Lesh Tuz in 1330. Also these surnames were already back then in circulation as clan names. In Turkish census of 1485, personal names like Kuč, Bushat only occur as names of fathers not as the names of individuals, which means they were tribal designations.
But slavic traces in Kuchi might date earlier in history. In the Venetian census of Shkodra from 1416, in the village Kuchi some Nenad is mentioned. Traditions of Kuchi usually list certain Nenad as one of their most distant ancestors.

And the name of the village Pantalesh brings me to Bjelopavlichi, this is a typically Albanian way of surname creation where two ancestors are connected: for ex. Nikmarash, Lulgjuraj etc. And it does seem to correspond to one of common Albanian combinations Pal Bardhi. Also Bjelopavlichi claimed always to descend "from Dukagjin", and usually Serb families wouldn't use Dukagjin as a term.
They are Z16988 however they are not closely related to Kelmendi, and I heard one of them ordered Y500 so we will know more on that. Bjelopavlici are mentioned in mid 15th century. In 1485 they only had few Albanian names.

I don't think anybody should be ashamed if their ancestor spoke Albanian 600 years ago or vice versa.

Actually there was recently discussion about Piperi. In 1485 in Piperi area only a handful of names were Albanian. Part of old Piperi are R-BY611, and also names such as Pipa, Biba, even Piper were common in Albanian areas in Ottoman defters. And I think I saw tendencies of some of them to minimize any such connection as there is opposite among Albanians who are R1a or I2a..

[Zanatis]

I don't say this very often but it's been a pleasure talking to you about this. I share the same subclade as those Dibrri you mentioned and my origins are from Montenegro.

So far your reasoning makes complete sense although things might slightly change in the future if we have more Albanians testing and especially BigY.

That won't change the area where your subclades originates but it might increase the possibility that it could have arrived earlier. For now I'll take your word for it.

Interestingly enough, few km from my ancestors' village in North Albania there's Koman, Koman Lake, but also a 6th century Koman Culture similar to the ones in Dalmatia and ex-Illyricum. Any idea what could be the origin of such a name? As for Kumanovo in Macedonia it's already known.

[Aspurg]

I don't say this very often but it's been a pleasure talking to you about this. I share the same subclade as those Dibrri you mentioned and my origins are from Montenegro.

Thank you, good to meet you, I was wondering if there were some Z38456 around. I have been reading something about Dibrri, in one source I read they were "mixed with Tosks", but this clade actually is common in both Ghegs and Tosks, You can see that in Arberesh study where there are samples from both, as few Tosks are atm tested on your project.

So far your reasoning makes complete sense although things might slightly change in the future if we have more Albanians testing and especially BigY.

That won't change the area where your subclades originates but it might increase the possibility that it could have arrived earlier. For now I'll take your word for it.

No, of course we have certainly connection to other CTS9320 which is among most expansive among V13's and I look forward to explore that as well. You can take my word (alongside many things I presented) because this evidence I speak of is just "insanely strong", and actually much stronger as a direct evidence than anything for example one could currently muster for the origin of Slavic I2-CTS10228.

Not to forget the clade Z38456>BY4435 which doesn't share 20 SNP's with you. Swedes and a Tatar Kamalov is very likely to be connected to them (Kamalov is I would say 100 % Z38456, but he surely is very distant from Balkan BY4461). So even this clade might not easily be recently Balkanic. And I would argue we had recently first Ancient DNA find from either this or some Z17107* in Russia 900 years ago. But I might open a topic about it, this is waay off topic already.:)

Interestingly enough, few km from my ancestors' village in North Albania there's Koman, Koman Lake, but also a 6th century Koman Culture similar to the ones in Dalmatia and ex-Illyricum. Any idea what could be the origin of such a name? As for Kumanovo in Macedonia it's already known.

I noticed that, actually in Turkish defers it can be seen that certain Albanian populations had few Cuman names here and there. As for those toponyms they might have such origin or not, however in Macedonia, there was a large amount of personal names of Cuman origin, especially in Moglen area. Moglen Vlachs are already hypothesized by many to have strong Pecheneg and subsequently Cuman influences, one haplotype that is certainly related to me from Grevena area might be connected to them, Moglen Vlachs were never studied genetically thus far. Cuman Proniars were in Byzantine service in those area already in 12th century.

Actually when I think of it there was a Kipchak clan with the name of "Berish" but I think that's just a coincidence. I do not think such origin is possible for the Berisha clade.

But few times in some areas I noticed few Cuman names among Albanian populations. I will give you a fine example:
In Ottoman defter of 1571 in the Albanian village Bradotin there was a land called Drman, also two inhabitants were Nina and Boja sons of Shishman from the village Shishman, which also exists today West of Djakovo. :)

[Aspurg]

Interesting thought there by no doubt should be Cuman lineages among Balkan people mostly Bulgaria,Serbia and Hungary as they were employed like soldiers many of whom reached even noble rank,many places names trough the Balkan has their name,about genetics this has maybe yet to be determined even I admire your deep research. For myself I could get back to my paternal ancestry gathered from relatives that they were living in Orahovac in Kosovo from where after the Austro-Turkish war 1778-1791 migrated in the mountains that are on present border between Serbia,Macedonia and Bulgaria from where I have more detailed information about my ancestors.There was Ottoman retaliation after the war and many fled to mountains or outside the Ottoman empire.

Interesting, I thought you might be Guja because of your knowledge of some Steppe populations. Guess not.:) Well it is often very difficult to search for ancestry in documents especially in areas where surnames were not common. My surname is at least 400 years old (and it's base is older), so really I never had to research to verify more recent origins, and testing of different branches of my family proved close connection.

About our branch, well I mentioned these, also Z34856>BY4435 as I mentioned seems present in Tatars, and a Pomak from Buglaria might be connected to him. Also a Yashlaw-Nughay Crimean Tatar is E-V13 and he only tested low number of markers but I see he has GATAH4=12, every V13 with that value is suspect Z17107, because this value is most common among Z17107 of all V13 clades by far.

I would say that R1b M73 certainly is heavily involved with ethnogenesis of Cumans, it is present at almost 40 % in a Turkic people of a peculiar name: Kumandin. Found in Crimean Tatars, Karachay-Balkars etc. In Hungary I saw only once such haplotype thus far from an anonymous study. Also several R1a-Z93 clades seem involved. This is often hard to determine because Cumans were Kipchaks but Tatars were also largely Kipchaks but they came later with the Mongols.
Cumans were a large confederation, it also seems likely Karachay I2a Din cluster arrived there with Cumans, though originally likely is Slavic. Also among Crimean Tatars D-PH116 was found etc.

One would expect among Macedonians/Bulgarians such candidates and they exist. I have been working on a map of Cuman names on the Balkans from the Ottoman defters, and I can already see some areas have greater concentration of such names/toponyms, such as Moglen, Sofia, Tarnovo, Plovdiv etc. And that usually goes in hand with archaeological evidence.

[Garrick]

The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

Very interesting about your haplogroup.

If you search common ancestor in Balkans, diversity in E-V13 is the largest in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria and Hungary had long border in 9^th century, and Pechenegs were in the east, later in 12th century Cumans (related with Pechenegs) came.

Theoretically you can have common ancestors connected with Bulgarians, Z17107 is found in Bulgaria but you are negative the Z38456 (but it is not impossible that a new finding in Bulgaria be more similar to yours).

Probably it is north from Balkans.

But you can really be native, if this term is appropriate.

In Pannonia E-V13 population lived very long, and much before Iron Age.

You can be descent of someone of Pannonian E-V13 bearer.

R-U152 mixed with E-V13 moving west among other in Pannonia.

Hallstatt culture emerged much later and it is logicall what Maciamo says that Hallstat people were bearers of E-V13 haplogroup.

Maybe you can be descent of these people.

[kuzmosi]

Dear Garrick!

Thank you for the answer. Although offtopic still belongs to this. I have a archeo-anthropological book from 2009. Thiy includes a study, (from Szathmáry László-Lenkey Zsuzsanna-Csóri Zsuzsanna-Holló Gábor)a craniological study, which analyzes 4000 skulls from eastern part of the hungarian lowland (alföld), east from Tisza river, between I.-XI. century After Christ.

I takes 7 periods:
1.Sarmatian Age (1-350 AC) 67 man, 73 woman
2. Temporary Age (350-480 AC) 112 man, 71 woman
3. Germanic Age (480-560 AC) 225 man, 193 woman
4. Early Avaric Age (560-670) 93 man, 77 woman
5. Late Avaric Age (670-890) 948 man 851 woman
6. Hungarian Principality Age (890-990) 352 man 268 woman
7. Early Hungarian Kingdom Age (990-1100) 394 man 302 woman

The basis of the craniological features of the Sarmatian Era. (100%)

From the skulls of the Temporary Age 82 % was new cranioligical features, but 18% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age.

From the skulls of the Germanic Age (gepids) 67% was new, but 16% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age and another 16 % carries features of the Temporary Age

Early Avaric Age: 70,3% new, 9,7% from Sarmatian Age, 10,4% from Temporary Age, 9,5% from Germanic Age

Late Avaric Age: 33,2% new (onogur bolgars!!!), 25,1% from Early Avaric, 14,7% from germanic, 11,4% from temporary age, 12,8% from Sarmatian Age

Early Hungarian Age: 42,6% new (magyars), 6,6% late avaric, 8,2% early avaric, 10,2% germanic, 17,2% temporary age, 15% sarmatian

XI. century: 36% new features, 10,9% early magyars, 3,1% late avaric, 9% early avaric, 15,7% germanic, 12% temporary age, 16,2% sarmatian.

The period before the Sarmatian Age in the northern Alföld was the Celtic Age. Celtic tribes (Osii, Cotini, Anartii, Taurisci) came from the west, and mixed from the local scythian age population (sigynnae, agathursi).When the sarmatians arrived, mixed with the local celtic/scythian population. In the early sarmatian cemetaries sarmatian and celtic burials were also present.

According to the above study, the population of the Sarmatian Age of the I. century AC, was still demonstrated 1000 years later, the XI. century. (16,2%) This is the basic population of the East Alföld, which is certainly present to some extent in today's population as well. So it means a little Celtic legacy. And here come the genetics. My Beres ancestors (R1b-U152-S8172) and according to Maciamo: my EV13-Z17107-Y81971 results.

Maybe it might be interesting, I managed to find all the straight male line descendants of all my 8 great-great-grandfathers. They all lived in this region, since I have written information about them (1690-1800) The results are:

EV13-Z17107-Y81971 (Kuzmos)
R1b-U106-S22069 (Dobi)
R1b-U152-S8172 (Beres)
I2a-M423-A1328 (Toth)
R1a-M458-YP415 (Kalenyak)
I2a-M423-Y3118 (Kiss)
R1a-L664-S2866 (Simon)
I1-L22-FGC14412 (Szilagyi)

I think, not only the celtic heritage is alives in my genes, but the tribes of the germanic age (I1, R1a-L664, R1b-U106) and my slavic and proto-slavic ancestors.

Few weeks ago, I found two male descendants of my distant branches:

Petruska family (R1a-Z280-Y33 still in progress)
Csehely family (no results at this time)

I think in my region and my past was a strong slav presence.

It would be nice for more people to spend time and money on such research. We would know much more about the past of each area.

[kuzmosi]

I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them. When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians.But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians)https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir= w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=_ _eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8 0oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgrc=w0k1RcPbKgU e0M: I found this study today:
Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest
Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture
So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population. This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too.

[kuzmosi]

Sorry, the paragraphs have disappeared. I thought so:

I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them. When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians.But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians)

https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir= w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=_ _eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8 0oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgrc=w0k1RcPbKgU e0M:

I found this study today:

Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest
Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture.

So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population. This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too.

[EdonMrnjavčević]

Blackmailing and trying to let down one's haplogroup's archeological history based on your fantasies is very unprofessional and racist. I am no member of E-V13 but I won't tolerate any discrimination of these european haplogroups. Only 25% of your ancestry is based on your father's side; the rest 75% is mtDNAs' y-fathers: your father's mother's father(Y), your mother's father(Y) and your mother's mother's father(Y). That being said, you as other europeans, have a very high chance of having thousands of E-V13 carriers in your total lineages. Same with for example let's say G2a. You seem to be irritated by irish and saudis; maybe both of them ****** your wife while you were working overtime in order to pay your wife's shitty Opel? You should read Maciamo's full post about E-V13; all the clades out of Europe are very recent and not ancient at all. Greeks and romans ****** tens of thousands of local women in Northern Africa and in Middle East. Why don't you publish your Y-DNA so I could do some research on it and connect it with slaves who were brought from Africa. You claim to be white, yet you live in a country that's known for having white races who share common ancestries with western africans and south americans. Think before you write bullshit, you might get your teeth broken in real life.

[Xisco]

Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

[Lenab]

Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

What is your known ancestry Balkan Slavic? Makes sense as E3b is Neolithic highest in Albania and Montenegro

[Xisco]

Me gustar�a saber c�mo lleg� mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan m�s muestras de esta �rea para indicar el origen con SNPs m�s recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espa�a, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Arag�n. La �nica referencia que tenemos m�s cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesal�nica.

[Xisco]

I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

[Lenab]

I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

Exactly that E3b is very Balkan, actually for Spanish men this is rare but anything is possible.

[Lenab]

Me gustar�a saber c�mo lleg� mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan m�s muestras de esta �rea para indicar el origen con SNPs m�s recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espa�a, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Arag�n. La �nica referencia que tenemos m�s cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesal�nica.

Podría ser cualquier cosa balcánica, no solo griega, incluso si está conectada al Neolítico o, al menos, al Mediterráneo oriental.
Debe preguntar a su familia y mirar los archivos del gobierno si tienen ese tipo de información.

[Xisco]

Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.

[Xisco]

My paternal lineage is from the year 1400 known on the island, beyond is unknown.