Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

[Lenab]

Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.

But yes but the information is on this website there is a whole section dedicated to haplogroups

[Tutkun Arnaut]

I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.

[Xisco]

I'm in the branch E-FGC11457 that has been making more samples of BigY and take the BAM to YFull, is growing in this last month. New branches have been created that are separated from E-FGC11450, which is the most extensive and the two negative branches in this SNP, such as mine E-BY4914 (Bulgaria and Spain) and the other negative branch in E- FGC11450 subclade E-Y84857 (Sweden and Finland). All E-FGC11457 are in a TMRCA of 3200 and bp. What differentiates us is that mine seems to be separating at that point and my line is in the south of the Balkans. When we have more samples we can assess the origin. The E-V13 is a Haplogroup that we still have a lot to learn.

[Xisco]

According to YFull the TMRCA of E-BY4914 is 2700 ybp. This SNP emerged from a sample of Litov�� (Central Macedonia) and a sample from Sencelles, Mallorca. That they gave the creation of three new SNPs: BY4914 * FGC12781 * ZS7594.

[Lenab]

According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.

It's apart of a pre historic Indo European expansion it crossed through North Africa because the coast of North Africa had PIES inhabiting it in the Red Sea.

[Lenab]

According to YFull the TMRCA of E-BY4914 is 2700 ybp. This SNP emerged from a sample of Litov�� (Central Macedonia) and a sample from Sencelles, Mallorca. That they gave the creation of three new SNPs: BY4914 * FGC12781 * ZS7594.

Illyrian/Thracian males. Maybe your family were Thracian who settled in Spain during Hispania

[Xisco]

In the line of Mallorca has advanced and has created a subclade of E-BY4914 the E-Y33577 with 16 SNPs in this Terminal SNP. And the line E-BY4914 * of Plovdiv of Bulgaria (that its ancestor is the one of Litovoi Central Macedonia), has remained with asterico that means that there is not enough information at the moment to create a new subclade.

[Xisco]

It could be Thracian, who knows.

[Xisco]

[CITA = Lenab; 558905] Varones ilirios / tracios. Tal vez su familia fuera Tracia que se estableci� en Espa�a durante Hispania [/ QUOTE]

The branch E-FGC11457 and its subclades of YFull. I made a separation of the subclades of the tree so that it looks better.

[Lenab]

That's probably it you're probably just the descendant of some Roman soldier who found his way into Spain and never left...Possibly maybe, not saying for sure that's what it is but it may be a possibility.

[Lenab]

My Father also had a E3b Illyrian Thracian haplogroup from Roman elite who stayed in the UK he is British

[Xisco]

It could have been by Fifth Cecilio Metelo Bale�rico (in Latin, Quintus Caecilius Q. f.Q.n. Metellus Balearicus) was a politician and military of the Roman Republic, eldest son of Fifth Cecilio Macedonian Metellus. He founded the cities of Palma and Pollentia, the latter as capital, and populated them with a colony of 3000 Romans and Iberians.

[Xisco]

What is the Haplogroup of your father?.

[Xisco]

E_FGC11457_FTDNA.jpg

Greek positive samples begin to enter the E-FGC11457 branch in FTDNA. At this time there are three positive samples. Three positives from France are also entering the E-FGC11457 branch.

[Xisco]

There are 159 positive samples in SNP E-FGC11457 in FTDNA. There are 79 samples of unknown origin and the rest that are 80 samples is in this list. Not everyone has the BigY test to have a more updated branch as it happens with YFull of those that transfer the BAM file to YFull. Not all do it. Others have made the E-V13 Pack and others have only made the SNP test or have passed the files to FTDNA from another company.

[Lenab]

What is the Haplogroup of your father?.

It's I-S24 Saxon he is a English person of North German genetics however distantly he has some Roman, Balkan and even Anatolian I did a haplogroup genetic test as well as several autosomal ones

[mihaitzateo]

If you look at the map of E-V13 it looks that is more of it in Ukraine but less in Russia.
So if it would have come with people from the steppes, why this happens?

Also, see a high concentration in Greece, near the shores of the sea.
As for E-V13 from Kosovo, maybe some event determined the E-V13 carriers to flee to the refuge of the mountains - the time coincide really well with the spread of Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths.
My supposition is that E-V13 came in Greece and in current lands of Albania, by boat.
A whole ethnicity came there by boats.
And it came from somewhere East Wards, not from North Africa, but from the shores of Black Sea or even from other Eastern Sea.
And I do not agree that these people were mostly early farmers, because if they would have been early farmers, why there is so much E-V13 in the mountains of Kosovo?

Regarding the question of Maciamo , with E-V13 and Hallstat Celts, possibly, because Hallstat Celts should have assimilated people they found in the area, as they came from East to Europe.But it seems that the Hallstat Celts came from somewhere more Central Asia while E-V13 seems to have come from somewhere more southwards of Central Asia.
A simple thing to investigate if E-V13 came from Central Asia or North Africa, is to see if Albanians and Greeks have lots of traditions related to the raising of the cows - but they do not have. They have traditions related to the raising of sheep.
Both people that came from Central Asia and the people that came from North Africa have strong traditions related to the raising of the cows.

[Xisco]

In the new FTDNA tab of matches Big Y-500 STR Differences Genetic Distance 0 to 1, this is the map of my results:

BigY500STR.jpg

[Xisco]

All my STRs matches belong to Haplogroup E-V13. My closest SNP matches as my closest STR matches are in Bulgaria.

[mihaitzateo]

I found out somehow that Greeks got high intolerance to cow milk. But they are very tolerant to sheep milk lactose.
So, if E-V13 was a major paternal line in Hallstat Celts, it was by assimilation of already existing people, by the Celts.
Hallstat Celts and cow milk intolerance is not such a plausible hypothesis.
Would be really interesting to see different clades of E-V13 from Greece and Austria.

[Archetype0ne]

My paternal lineage is from the year 1400 known on the island, beyond is unknown.

Take this with a grain of salt, only as a speculation avenue. But as far as I know Aragon had vassalage over Naples, which had "vassalage" (this is a whole other discussion) over Skenderbegs Albania. Skenderbeg himself had campaigns in Naples with some 2-3k men around 1440's. One of these people could belong to your family tree, alternatively part of Arberesh in Italy are also E-V13.

Trivia: At the time Albanian Stratioti were employed as "long term" Mercenaries by England to patrol the Scottish highlands, since they were specialized in hit and run tactics akin to the ones the Scotts used to harass the frontier, as opposed to western heavy knights.

[Aspar]

Take this with a grain of salt, only as a speculation avenue. But as far as I know Aragon had vassalage over Naples, which had "vassalage" (this is a whole other discussion) over Skenderbegs Albania. Skenderbeg himself had campaigns in Naples with some 2-3k men around 1440's. One of these people could belong to your family tree, alternatively part of Arberesh in Italy are also E-V13.

Trivia: At the time Albanian Stratioti were employed as "long term" Mercenaries by England to patrol the Scottish highlands, since they were specialized in hit and run tactics akin to the ones the Scotts used to harass the frontier, as opposed to western heavy knights.

Why would Xisco be related to Albanian Stratioti or Albanians in general when he himself said that his closest STR and SNP matches are from Bulgaria!
Furthermore, his terminal SNP on the YFULL tree is E-Y33577, which is downstream of E-BY4914, TMRCA of 2700 ybp, SNP that the Spaniards share with a Bulgarian!
I've looked in many dna projects but so far, I can't find any Albanian that belongs to E-BY4914!
I've searched a little bit and it seems that this Bulgarian is with origin from Greek Macedonia!
However, I can't find no Greeks either under E-BY4914!
It seems that many Greeks and Albanians belong to the SNP defined as E-FGC11450, TMRCA 3200 ybp, downstream of E-FGC11457, TMRCA 3200 ybp, which is SNP upstream of E-BY4914!
E-BY4914 seems to have an Eastern/Central distribution in the Balkans and might indicate Thracian/Paeonian legacy!
Since Xisco pointed out that he is from the Balearic islands, and if we assume that his patrilineal linage is native there since the late antiquity, it could have arrived in the Balearic islands with Vandals, Romans, you name it!

From Wikipedia:

The Vandals under Genseric conquered the Islands sometime between 461 and 468 during their war on the Roman Empire. However, in late 533 or early 534, following the Battle of Ad Decimum, the troops of Belisarius reestablished control of the islands for the Byzantine Empire.

[Archetype0ne]

Fortress of Svetigrad, Easter Albania, along Macedonian Border was held by Skanderbeg for a couple of years before being captured by the Ottomans. Area with a lot of Bulgarian toponyms incidentally, or coincidentally.Thracian... Bulgarian E-V13 could have been a local recruit in his Army, check Haplogroups for Debar Region, quite a lot of Aromanian and Bulgarian present IMO. A big part of Skanderbeg power base was along the Mat-Diber region along the Drin as it held specific geographic importance, when it came to assymetric warfare. PS: Skenderbeg even had Serbophone fighters in his armies from Montenegro in the League of Lezhe, so I would not even be surprised if R1A got to Catalonya through such route, let alone Thracian branch E-V13. Oh and there were also Bulgarian and Greek Stratioti... in fact the very cavalry unit developed in the southern Balkans, with influence from eastern lighter cavalry units.


Anyways, good thing you took my statement with a grain of salt...

[Archetype0ne]

[CITA = Lenab; 558905] Varones ilirios / tracios. Tal vez su familia fuera Tracia que se estableci� en Espa�a durante Hispania [/ QUOTE]

The branch E-FGC11457 and its subclades of YFull. I made a separation of the subclades of the tree so that it looks better.

Just noticed this tree. And saw the branching of the BG and AL branches, both circa 3.2k BP, which further rises my suspicions mentioned above.

[Aspurg]

Why would Xisco be related to Albanian Stratioti or Albanians in general when he himself said that his closest STR and SNP matches are from Bulgaria!
Furthermore, his terminal SNP on the YFULL tree is E-Y33577, which is downstream of E-BY4914, TMRCA of 2700 ybp, SNP that the Spaniards share with a Bulgarian!
I've looked in many dna projects but so far, I can't find any Albanian that belongs to E-BY4914!

It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.