Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't say this very often but it's been a pleasure talking to you about this. I share the same subclade as those Dibrri you mentioned and my origins are from Montenegro.

Thank you, good to meet you, I was wondering if there were some Z38456 around. I have been reading something about Dibrri, in one source I read they were "mixed with Tosks", but this clade actually is common in both Ghegs and Tosks, You can see that in Arberesh study where there are samples from both, as few Tosks are atm tested on your project.

So far your reasoning makes complete sense although things might slightly change in the future if we have more Albanians testing and especially BigY.

That won't change the area where your subclades originates but it might increase the possibility that it could have arrived earlier. For now I'll take your word for it.

No, of course we have certainly connection to other CTS9320 which is among most expansive among V13's and I look forward to explore that as well. You can take my word (alongside many things I presented) because this evidence I speak of is just "insanely strong", and actually much stronger as a direct evidence than anything for example one could currently muster for the origin of Slavic I2-CTS10228.

Not to forget the clade Z38456>BY4435 which doesn't share 20 SNP's with you. Swedes and a Tatar Kamalov is very likely to be connected to them (Kamalov is I would say 100 % Z38456, but he surely is very distant from Balkan BY4461). So even this clade might not easily be recently Balkanic. And I would argue we had recently first Ancient DNA find from either this or some Z17107* in Russia 900 years ago. But I might open a topic about it, this is waay off topic already.:)

Interestingly enough, few km from my ancestors' village in North Albania there's Koman, Koman Lake, but also a 6th century Koman Culture similar to the ones in Dalmatia and ex-Illyricum. Any idea what could be the origin of such a name? As for Kumanovo in Macedonia it's already known.

I noticed that, actually in Turkish defers it can be seen that certain Albanian populations had few Cuman names here and there. As for those toponyms they might have such origin or not, however in Macedonia, there was a large amount of personal names of Cuman origin, especially in Moglen area. Moglen Vlachs are already hypothesized by many to have strong Pecheneg and subsequently Cuman influences, one haplotype that is certainly related to me from Grevena area might be connected to them, Moglen Vlachs were never studied genetically thus far. Cuman Proniars were in Byzantine service in those area already in 12th century.

Actually when I think of it there was a Kipchak clan with the name of "Berish" but I think that's just a coincidence. I do not think such origin is possible for the Berisha clade.

But few times in some areas I noticed few Cuman names among Albanian populations. I will give you a fine example:
In Ottoman defter of 1571 in the Albanian village Bradotin there was a land called Drman, also two inhabitants were Nina and Boja sons of Shishman from the village Shishman, which also exists today West of Djakovo. :)
 
Interesting thought there by no doubt should be Cuman lineages among Balkan people mostly Bulgaria,Serbia and Hungary as they were employed like soldiers many of whom reached even noble rank,many places names trough the Balkan has their name,about genetics this has maybe yet to be determined even I admire your deep research. For myself I could get back to my paternal ancestry gathered from relatives that they were living in Orahovac in Kosovo from where after the Austro-Turkish war 1778-1791 migrated in the mountains that are on present border between Serbia,Macedonia and Bulgaria from where I have more detailed information about my ancestors.There was Ottoman retaliation after the war and many fled to mountains or outside the Ottoman empire.

Interesting, I thought you might be Guja because of your knowledge of some Steppe populations. Guess not.:) Well it is often very difficult to search for ancestry in documents especially in areas where surnames were not common. My surname is at least 400 years old (and it's base is older), so really I never had to research to verify more recent origins, and testing of different branches of my family proved close connection.

About our branch, well I mentioned these, also Z34856>BY4435 as I mentioned seems present in Tatars, and a Pomak from Buglaria might be connected to him. Also a Yashlaw-Nughay Crimean Tatar is E-V13 and he only tested low number of markers but I see he has GATAH4=12, every V13 with that value is suspect Z17107, because this value is most common among Z17107 of all V13 clades by far.

I would say that R1b M73 certainly is heavily involved with ethnogenesis of Cumans, it is present at almost 40 % in a Turkic people of a peculiar name: Kumandin. Found in Crimean Tatars, Karachay-Balkars etc. In Hungary I saw only once such haplotype thus far from an anonymous study. Also several R1a-Z93 clades seem involved. This is often hard to determine because Cumans were Kipchaks but Tatars were also largely Kipchaks but they came later with the Mongols.
Cumans were a large confederation, it also seems likely Karachay I2a Din cluster arrived there with Cumans, though originally likely is Slavic. Also among Crimean Tatars D-PH116 was found etc.

One would expect among Macedonians/Bulgarians such candidates and they exist. I have been working on a map of Cuman names on the Balkans from the Ottoman defters, and I can already see some areas have greater concentration of such names/toponyms, such as Moglen, Sofia, Tarnovo, Plovdiv etc. And that usually goes in hand with archaeological evidence.
 
The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

Very interesting about your haplogroup.

If you search common ancestor in Balkans, diversity in E-V13 is the largest in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria and Hungary had long border in 9th century, and Pechenegs were in the east, later in 12th century Cumans (related with Pechenegs) came.

Theoretically you can have common ancestors connected with Bulgarians, Z17107 is found in Bulgaria but you are negative the Z38456 (but it is not impossible that a new finding in Bulgaria be more similar to yours).

Probably it is north from Balkans.

But you can really be native, if this term is appropriate.

In Pannonia E-V13 population lived very long, and much before Iron Age.

You can be descent of someone of Pannonian E-V13 bearer.

R-U152 mixed with E-V13 moving west among other in Pannonia.

Hallstatt culture emerged much later and it is logicall what Maciamo says that Hallstat people were bearers of E-V13 haplogroup.

Maybe you can be descent of these people.
 
Dear Garrick!

Thank you for the answer. Although offtopic still belongs to this. I have a archeo-anthropological book from 2009. Thiy includes a study, (from Szathmáry László-Lenkey Zsuzsanna-Csóri Zsuzsanna-Holló Gábor)a craniological study, which analyzes 4000 skulls from eastern part of the hungarian lowland (alföld), east from Tisza river, between I.-XI. century After Christ.

I takes 7 periods:
1.Sarmatian Age (1-350 AC) 67 man, 73 woman
2. Temporary Age (350-480 AC) 112 man, 71 woman
3. Germanic Age (480-560 AC) 225 man, 193 woman
4. Early Avaric Age (560-670) 93 man, 77 woman
5. Late Avaric Age (670-890) 948 man 851 woman
6. Hungarian Principality Age (890-990) 352 man 268 woman
7. Early Hungarian Kingdom Age (990-1100) 394 man 302 woman

The basis of the craniological features of the Sarmatian Era. (100%)

From the skulls of the Temporary Age 82 % was new cranioligical features, but 18% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age.

From the skulls of the Germanic Age (gepids) 67% was new, but 16% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age and another 16 % carries features of the Temporary Age

Early Avaric Age: 70,3% new, 9,7% from Sarmatian Age, 10,4% from Temporary Age, 9,5% from Germanic Age

Late Avaric Age: 33,2% new (onogur bolgars!!!), 25,1% from Early Avaric, 14,7% from germanic, 11,4% from temporary age, 12,8% from Sarmatian Age

Early Hungarian Age: 42,6% new (magyars), 6,6% late avaric, 8,2% early avaric, 10,2% germanic, 17,2% temporary age, 15% sarmatian

XI. century: 36% new features, 10,9% early magyars, 3,1% late avaric, 9% early avaric, 15,7% germanic, 12% temporary age, 16,2% sarmatian.

The period before the Sarmatian Age in the northern Alföld was the Celtic Age. Celtic tribes (Osii, Cotini, Anartii, Taurisci) came from the west, and mixed from the local scythian age population (sigynnae, agathursi).When the sarmatians arrived, mixed with the local celtic/scythian population. In the early sarmatian cemetaries sarmatian and celtic burials were also present.

According to the above study, the population of the Sarmatian Age of the I. century AC, was still demonstrated 1000 years later, the XI. century. (16,2%) This is the basic population of the East Alföld, which is certainly present to some extent in today's population as well. So it means a little Celtic legacy. And here come the genetics. My Beres ancestors (R1b-U152-S8172) and according to Maciamo: my EV13-Z17107-Y81971 results.

Maybe it might be interesting, I managed to find all the straight male line descendants of all my 8 great-great-grandfathers. They all lived in this region, since I have written information about them (1690-1800) The results are:

EV13-Z17107-Y81971 (Kuzmos)
R1b-U106-S22069 (Dobi)
R1b-U152-S8172 (Beres)
I2a-M423-A1328 (Toth)
R1a-M458-YP415 (Kalenyak)
I2a-M423-Y3118 (Kiss)
R1a-L664-S2866 (Simon)
I1-L22-FGC14412 (Szilagyi)

I think, not only the celtic heritage is alives in my genes, but the tribes of the germanic age (I1, R1a-L664, R1b-U106) and my slavic and proto-slavic ancestors.

Few weeks ago, I found two male descendants of my distant branches:

Petruska family (R1a-Z280-Y33 still in progress)
Csehely family (no results at this time)

I think in my region and my past was a strong slav presence.

It would be nice for more people to spend time and money on such research. We would know much more about the past of each area.
 
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=__eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj80oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgrc=w0k1RcPbKgUe0M:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I found this study today:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too. [/FONT]
 
Sorry, the paragraphs have disappeared. I thought so:

I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them.
When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians.But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians)

https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir= w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=_ _eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8 0oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgrc=w0k1RcPbKgU e0M:

I found this study today:

Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest
Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture.

So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population. This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too.
 
Blackmailing and trying to let down one's haplogroup's archeological history based on your fantasies is very unprofessional and racist. I am no member of E-V13 but I won't tolerate any discrimination of these european haplogroups. Only 25% of your ancestry is based on your father's side; the rest 75% is mtDNAs' y-fathers: your father's mother's father(Y), your mother's father(Y) and your mother's mother's father(Y). That being said, you as other europeans, have a very high chance of having thousands of E-V13 carriers in your total lineages. Same with for example let's say G2a. You seem to be irritated by irish and saudis; maybe both of them ****** your wife while you were working overtime in order to pay your wife's shitty Opel? You should read Maciamo's full post about E-V13; all the clades out of Europe are very recent and not ancient at all. Greeks and romans ****** tens of thousands of local women in Northern Africa and in Middle East. Why don't you publish your Y-DNA so I could do some research on it and connect it with slaves who were brought from Africa. You claim to be white, yet you live in a country that's known for having white races who share common ancestries with western africans and south americans. Think before you write bullshit, you might get your teeth broken in real life.
 
Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.
 
Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

What is your known ancestry Balkan Slavic? Makes sense as E3b is Neolithic highest in Albania and Montenegro
 
Me gustar?a saber c?mo lleg? mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan m?s muestras de esta ?rea para indicar el origen con SNPs m?s recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espa?a, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Arag?n. La ?nica referencia que tenemos m?s cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesal?nica.
 
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag?n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.
 
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.
Exactly that E3b is very Balkan, actually for Spanish men this is rare but anything is possible.
 
Me gustar�a saber c�mo lleg� mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan m�s muestras de esta �rea para indicar el origen con SNPs m�s recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espa�a, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Arag�n. La �nica referencia que tenemos m�s cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesal�nica.

Podría ser cualquier cosa balcánica, no solo griega, incluso si está conectada al Neolítico o, al menos, al Mediterráneo oriental.
Debe preguntar a su familia y mirar los archivos del gobierno si tienen ese tipo de información.
 
Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.
 
My paternal lineage is from the year 1400 known on the island, beyond is unknown.
 
Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.
But yes but the information is on this website there is a whole section dedicated to haplogroups
 
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.
 
I'm in the branch E-FGC11457 that has been making more samples of BigY and take the BAM to YFull, is growing in this last month. New branches have been created that are separated from E-FGC11450, which is the most extensive and the two negative branches in this SNP, such as mine E-BY4914 (Bulgaria and Spain) and the other negative branch in E- FGC11450 subclade E-Y84857 (Sweden and Finland). All E-FGC11457 are in a TMRCA of 3200 and bp. What differentiates us is that mine seems to be separating at that point and my line is in the south of the Balkans. When we have more samples we can assess the origin. The E-V13 is a Haplogroup that we still have a lot to learn.
 
According to YFull the TMRCA of E-BY4914 is 2700 ybp. This SNP emerged from a sample of Litov?? (Central Macedonia) and a sample from Sencelles, Mallorca. That they gave the creation of three new SNPs: BY4914 * FGC12781 * ZS7594.
 
According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.
It's apart of a pre historic Indo European expansion it crossed through North Africa because the coast of North Africa had PIES inhabiting it in the Red Sea.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 77348 times.

Back
Top