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Thread: Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

    Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

    However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

    Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.
    Hmm... I provided a tip based on the 1400's EU political landscape that I am aware of. Where did I say Xisco's ancestor was Albanian? I even went out of my way to specify E-V13 was present in the Macedonian frontier at the time. And also to specify that neither Stratioti neither E-V13 are unique to Albanians.

    Ik Qihu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hmm... I provided a tip based on the 1400's EU political landscape that I am aware of. Where did I say Xisco's ancestor was Albanian? I even went out of my way to specify E-V13 was present in the Macedonian frontier at the time. And also to specify that neither Stratioti neither E-V13 are unique to Albanians.

    Ik Qihu.
    Well you did mention possibility of his ancestor being one of those Skederbeg people.. It's not an issue nor something negative at all if one has Albanian origin but he should cluster with Albanians (also some other evidence such as documents etc helps). Like all of Greek E-FGC11450's cluster with Albanians and are of Arvanite origin.. Same goes for the vast majority of Greek R-Z2705 and E-BY4461, these clades are common and more diverse in Albanians. In the case of these Spaniards they cluster with someone in Thrace and not that closely either..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well you did mention possibility of his ancestor being of of those Skederbeg people.. It's not an issue nor something negative at all if one has Albanian origin but he should cluster with Albanians (also some other evidence such as documents etc helps). Like all of Greek E-FGC11450's cluster with Albanians and are of Arvanite origin.. Same goes for the vast majority of Greek R-Z2705 and E-BY4461, these clades are common and more diverse in Albanians. In the case of these Spaniards they cluster with someone in Thrace and not that closely either..
    How would the genetic trail look like if some Thracian/Aromanian/Bulgaro-Slavic from Debar remained as a mercenary in Naples, and as such ended up in service in Aragon?

    Yeah, that's what I thought...

    Does this mean that my speculation is a fact? OFC not. But I put time in to raise it as a possibility for Xisco, and not for you to teach me how Albanins appropriate history. So miss me with your bullshit.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

    Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

    However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

    Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.
    It's not my intention to provoke and fight with other members here, neither to teach them as if I am some authority here.
    All I am interested about is to engage in conversation about the history and the movement of the people through the history following the patterns of diversity and location of the y-dna markers!
    That said I am mostly interested about the Balkan history and maybe a little bit biased towards E-V13 in general!
    So I am glad to have a conversation with anyone here who has the same passion as me.

    For E-V13, I personally think that it's entirely European marker that was formed in Europe!
    Imo, it was it's father clade E-L618, that migrated to Europe through Anatolia.
    It was in the Northern Balkans, possibly Moldavia and surroundings, when E-V13 was absorbed in the Indo-European population and had a sudden boom in numbers, splitting in multiple subclades!

    Some older subclades like E-PH1246, were probably among the first that penetrated the Southern Balkans across the river Danube!
    This subclade shows pattern of Western Balkan dispersion and could be linked with the earliest populations living in the Southern Balkans, Brygians maybe?
    Could be and some could have been Mycenaean even!

    But apart from this one, all other subclades show Northern Balkan dispersion and could have been late BA, EIA arrivals!
    Other subclades, notably some of those under CTS9320, could have migrated into the Southern Balkans along the course of the IA and could have been very late arrivals!

    Even looking at Greece and it's y-dna dispersion, we can see a pattern in which J2a and R1b are mostly found in the South, E1b in the middle and R1a and I2a in the North!

    That's like a geological picture, the same way the geologists look into the layers of the earth to unearth it's mysteries!
    And many E1b in Southern Greece and the islands are not even E-V13 but some other clades like E-V22!

    That being said, I think that the true BA Southern Balkan markers were R1b and J2a!
    That Greeks today have a lot of E1b doesn't say much about the situation in the Southern Balkans during BA as they were not a closed group of people during their history as heirs of the Roman and than the Byzantine empire, and they did assimilate a lot of other people and let's not forget about many survivors of the Northern Balkans during the medieval period that found refuge in the Greek coastal cities!

    Imo, some closed group of people like the Aromuns, is better suited for studying the situation of the Balkans south of Danube when it comes to y-dna!
    They even show much more diversity in y-dna haplotypes, unlike the Albanians who as you said belong to younger subclades who show founder effect!

    And the situation with the Aromuns is the following: E-V13 is not the most dominant haplogroup in them!
    J2 is, followed by R1b, although we should split J2 to J2a and J2b!
    However, regarding J2a and J2b there is a big difference in different Aromun communities that shows that even the Aromuns should not be looked upon as a homogeneous group but rather as a different Balkan communities(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), that came under the Latin umbrella!

    I have read somewhere that the Gramostian Aromuns are the purest Aromuns in sense that they didn't even mix much with other groups of Aromuns and the Aromuns of Stip, Macedonia, are Gramostians by origin so they might be the best candidates for examining.

    Imo, the Gramostian Aromuns could be very good candidates for some Balkan population living north of the Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians?
    E-V13 is very strong in them, around 20 % I think, however their E-V13 is different than the one observed in the Albanians but show links with the one in Bulgaria, something that I have observed with my own subclade!
    They lack I2a-Dinaric which confirms my suspicion that the earliest migrant of Slavs in the Balkans were not heavy in I2a but in R1a!
    Some R1a could have been brought by Goths even!
    I2a probably came with later arrivals!
    For example, Ivan Mikulcic, the Macedonian-Slovenian archaeologist says that on the territory of Rep. of Macedonia up to the 9th century, could not be observed any Slavic settlements unlike in Greece!
    It seems that those early Slavs somehow had bypassed the territory of Rep. of Macedonia and settled heavily in Greece!
    The first Slavic artefacts and settlements are observed when the Bulgars conquered the territory of Rep. of Macedonia in the middle of the 9th century!

    Therefore, E-V13 in the Balkans should be linked with some cultures like Urnfield culture, Gava culture, Bassarabi culture??
    Rather than being linked specifically with the Thracians because we observe diversity of subclades among different populations, however it's urheimat is definitely North of river Danube!
    This logic of mine also follows the pattern in which E-V13 is stronger in the Slavic speaking populations of the Balkans today than let's say R1b or J2, so I think that many South Slavic speaking people had came in the Balkans already rich in E-V13 that they perhaps could have absorbed it on the territory of modern Romania and Hungary, rather than acquiring the E-V13 with the assimilation of local people after they've settled south of the river Danube!

    In that sense, I believe that the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans are mostly Slavic-Dacian/Pannonian mix!
    In that sense also, many medieval historians were not wrong calling the Sclavinae of the Balkans as Getae!

    So, E-V13 could have been the most dominant haplogroup among the Dacians and Pannonians, and as the line of divide between Illyrians and Thracians is very thin, perhaps is better to say that E-V13 is more Thraco-Illyrian than Greek marker!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    It's not my intention to provoke and fight with other members here, neither to teach them as if I am some authority here.
    All I am interested about is to engage in conversation about the history and the movement of the people through the history following the patterns of diversity and location of the y-dna markers!
    That said I am mostly interested about the Balkan history and maybe a little bit biased towards E-V13 in general!
    So I am glad to have a conversation with anyone here who has the same passion as me.

    For E-V13, I personally think that it's entirely European marker that was formed in Europe!
    Imo, it was it's father clade E-L618, that migrated to Europe through Anatolia.
    It was in the Northern Balkans, possibly Moldavia and surroundings, when E-V13 was absorbed in the Indo-European population and had a sudden boom in numbers, splitting in multiple subclades!

    Some older subclades like E-PH1246, were probably among the first that penetrated the Southern Balkans across the river Danube!
    This subclade shows pattern of Western Balkan dispersion and could be linked with the earliest populations living in the Southern Balkans, Brygians maybe?
    Could be and some could have been Mycenaean even!

    But apart from this one, all other subclades show Northern Balkan dispersion and could have been late BA, EIA arrivals!
    Other subclades, notably some of those under CTS9320, could have migrated into the Southern Balkans along the course of the IA and could have been very late arrivals!

    Even looking at Greece and it's y-dna dispersion, we can see a pattern in which J2a and R1b are mostly found in the South, E1b in the middle and R1a and I2a in the North!

    That's like a geological picture, the same way the geologists look into the layers of the earth to unearth it's mysteries!
    And many E1b in Southern Greece and the islands are not even E-V13 but some other clades like E-V22!

    That being said, I think that the true BA Southern Balkan markers were R1b and J2a!
    That Greeks today have a lot of E1b doesn't say much about the situation in the Southern Balkans during BA as they were not a closed group of people during their history as heirs of the Roman and than the Byzantine empire, and they did assimilate a lot of other people and let's not forget about many survivors of the Northern Balkans during the medieval period that found refuge in the Greek coastal cities!

    Imo, some closed group of people like the Aromuns, is better suited for studying the situation of the Balkans south of Danube when it comes to y-dna!
    They even show much more diversity in y-dna haplotypes, unlike the Albanians who as you said belong to younger subclades who show founder effect!

    And the situation with the Aromuns is the following: E-V13 is not the most dominant haplogroup in them!
    J2 is, followed by R1b, although we should split J2 to J2a and J2b!
    However, regarding J2a and J2b there is a big difference in different Aromun communities that shows that even the Aromuns should not be looked upon as a homogeneous group but rather as a different Balkan communities(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), that came under the Latin umbrella!

    I have read somewhere that the Gramostian Aromuns are the purest Aromuns in sense that they didn't even mix much with other groups of Aromuns and the Aromuns of Stip, Macedonia, are Gramostians by origin so they might be the best candidates for examining.

    Imo, the Gramostian Aromuns could be very good candidates for some Balkan population living north of the Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians?
    E-V13 is very strong in them, around 20 % I think, however their E-V13 is different than the one observed in the Albanians but show links with the one in Bulgaria, something that I have observed with my own subclade!
    They lack I2a-Dinaric which confirms my suspicion that the earliest migrant of Slavs in the Balkans were not heavy in I2a but in R1a!
    Some R1a could have been brought by Goths even!
    I2a probably came with later arrivals!
    For example, Ivan Mikulcic, the Macedonian-Slovenian archaeologist says that on the territory of Rep. of Macedonia up to the 9th century, could not be observed any Slavic settlements unlike in Greece!
    It seems that those early Slavs somehow had bypassed the territory of Rep. of Macedonia and settled heavily in Greece!
    The first Slavic artefacts and settlements are observed when the Bulgars conquered the territory of Rep. of Macedonia in the middle of the 9th century!

    Therefore, E-V13 in the Balkans should be linked with some cultures like Urnfield culture, Gava culture, Bassarabi culture??
    Rather than being linked specifically with the Thracians because we observe diversity of subclades among different populations, however it's urheimat is definitely North of river Danube!
    This logic of mine also follows the pattern in which E-V13 is stronger in the Slavic speaking populations of the Balkans today than let's say R1b or J2, so I think that many South Slavic speaking people had came in the Balkans already rich in E-V13 that they perhaps could have absorbed it on the territory of modern Romania and Hungary, rather than acquiring the E-V13 with the assimilation of local people after they've settled south of the river Danube!

    In that sense, I believe that the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans are mostly Slavic-Dacian/Pannonian mix!
    In that sense also, many medieval historians were not wrong calling the Sclavinae of the Balkans as Getae!

    So, E-V13 could have been the most dominant haplogroup among the Dacians and Pannonians, and as the line of divide between Illyrians and Thracians is very thin, perhaps is better to say that E-V13 is more Thraco-Illyrian than Greek marker!
    To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    .
    it seems like E-v13 is an aegean sea area origin, could be west-anatolian or greek
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    .
    it seems like E-v13 is an aegean sea area origin, could be west-anatolian or greek
    We seem to agree that many subclades downstream of E-V13 are LBA/EIA arrivals in the Aegean.
    Where did E-V13 originates from?
    I am certain it was in Europe but I can't tell where exactly!
    However, the E-V13 who is the ancestor of all modern subclades of E-V13 with MRCA 4800 ybp, was certainly not around the Aegean!
    How else you would explain the lack in numbers of E-V13 in the near East and Anatolia when compared with Central or even Western Europe?
    That means that this ancestor of all modern E-V13 subclades must have been picked up by the Indo-Europeans somewhere close to the Pontic steppe and than following the Danube river, it was dispersed further west in Europe.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Disclaimer: This is just my guess, take it as an unlikely scenario that might prove true, but false till otherwise stated.

    5000 BP:
    Balkans: Local "Celtic";"Pellasg" "Thracian" population of R1B. (Unsure about Dacian or Gaet tbh, think they would have been predominantly J2B2, with lower levels of early E-V13 mixed in.).
    Egypt: Levant: Crete : Eastern Anatolia: E-V13 snakes into Anatolia, before pre-mixing with J2B2 by way of Caucasus and descending into mainland Balkans through Macedonia and the Vardar then upwards down the Danube.
    Caucasus: East Anatolia: J2B2 (cattle already domesticated, already in the bronze age) mix with the E-V13 (early*Anatolian farmers, gold/silver smiths by way of Electroneum, less labor intensive than the J2B2 bronze age tech) before heading westwards potentially as an indistinguishable entity/ multiple entities (meaning no singularity for any modern day nationality as far as both clades are concerned..

    Here IMO, technology takes off due to J2B2 and E-V13 niches being complementary to each other. Ie: E-V13 would have farmed, and dealt in silver and gold, trading with J2B2 for Bronze/Tin and embracing animal husbandry.

    Then 1300... something makes the house of cards collapse for a couple hundred years of dark age, till Classical Period revival, and "Pax" Romana.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Y DNA EV13 It was since 7900 to 8400 years In Croatia
    The oldest remains Y DNA are found In Croatia
    Number sample I3948
    MT DNA N1a1
    YDNA EV13

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elaishousse View Post
    Y DNA EV13 It was since 7900 to 8400 years In Croatia
    The oldest remains Y DNA are found In Croatia
    Number sample I3948
    MT DNA N1a1
    YDNA EV13
    which paper?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    which paper?
    I3948 is the E-L618+ Croatian Neolithic sample from The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Zemunica Cave (Croatia, Dalmatia) C1a2-V20 E1b1b1a1b1-CTS3287 5600-5470 BC Olande+2017


    http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...nt-revised.pdf

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    Never mind
    Last edited by Leka; 15-02-19 at 19:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't say that E-V13 wasn't Balkanic in origins. The mutation may have first arisen in the Balkans then spread to the Carpathians and Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillia), then the lineage would have been absorbed by the IE tribes. Indo-European clades of E-V13 were surely present all over the Balkans since the Bronze Age, but the most of the deep clades found around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, etc. appear to have expanded only in the last 1650 to 900 years.
    Dear Maciamo, following Ralph&Coop paper, it is noticable a huge IBD peak for Albanians at the fall of the Roman empire. The authors interpret it as a near extinction event.
    In my opinion only few illyrian clans survived,the very isolated ones. So almost by definition in Albanians can survive only a small fraction of the previous populations. Same holds for Albanian holders of Ev13.

    You cannot expect to find large variety of Ev13 in post extiction albanians. Maybe with good time and resourses the pre extinction sceletons will be studied (i.e roman times). I would not be surprised to find a great variety of Ev13.

    Just as a reminder the data from the paper. It shows the huge black hole that swallowd the illyrians and spit out the albanians (imo).

    Nevertheless, there is a singularity phenomena (a sink) associated with the densest population of Ev13. All linear interpretation of other data, like gradients of actual distributions, will have doubtful accuracy.

    I would like also tonthank you infinitely for all your posts, quite a pleasant and educative reading.pbio.1001555.s012.pdf

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Bereber Arabic
    Country: Morocco



    sorry the remains were on the Haplogroup EL618

  15. #115
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    Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Country: Albania



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo, from the 2018 Grugni paper on Italian Y-dna we know that in Apulia and Po Valley there is elevated EV13 and J2b2 and the authors explicitly states that the migration pattern of it is from the balkans across the adriatic. The people that made such migrations are illyrians/messapians.

    Now, not all Ev13 in italy will be from Illyrians, im sure magna grecia will show different clades, and that there are probably indigenous italic EV13 clades also, however such studies have not been yet done.

    What we can say certainly though because of that paper is that local "illyrian" EV13 exists for sure.

    Given that EV13 is the highest represented haplo among Albanians, its just not ethnographically probable to expect these EV13 people to have been speaking anything other than proto-albanian within the last 3000 years. Maybe a clade or two got assimilated, but if you actually look at hyper-albanian clans from all the way up north to south like in the heart of laberia zone where they were also very conservative albanians practicing the kanun of laberia, it just has no weight behind it as an argument.

    The only probable scenario is that which we should expect already from historical and previous genetic data. We know most illyrians were either destroyed by wars and plagues or assimilated into foreign ethnos by conquerors, and that if we were to find surviving illyrians their y-dna should show severe bottlenecks as the paper of ralph/coop showed high IBD.

    If you look at Z5018 you have bottlenecks, but nonetheless you have albanians from all over Albania, the most extreme south and north represented, especially under S2979.







    You should read the article put out by the Albanian Bloodlines Group that summarizes the results thus far:


    http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gj...-aterore-2019/

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