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Thread: Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

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    Post Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

    The distribution and origins of E-V13 are one of the most perplexing of any haplogroups. Over the years people have hypothesised that it originated with ancient Greeks, Neolithic farmers, Balkans people, Steppe people, Romans, Celts, Indo-Europeans in general or whatever imaginable scenario.

    What we know almost for sure at present is that E-V13 is too young to have spread around Europe during the Neolithic. Yfull.com estimates that it formed 7700 years ago, but that all present day carriers descend from a man who lived only 4900 years ago, during the Early Bronze Age. Additionally, 99% of E-V13 individuals are also positive for the CTS5856 (aka CTS1273 or CTS7237), whose last common ancestor goes back only 4200 years ago, when R1b tribes had already reached the British Isles.

    Most of us got mislead by the presumed finding of an E-V13 sample in Early Neolithic Catalonia. But it turned out that that sample was not tested for SNPs and was only predicted to be E-V13 based on STR samples. It probably belonged to its parent clade, the much older E-L618 (12,300 years old according to Yfull.com).

    Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.




    When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.

    I have explained in my history of E-V13 that this lineage became assimilated by the Indo-European Steppe invaders around the time of the Corded Ware expansion (R1a) and the expansion of R1b tribes to the Balkans and Danubian basin. From there, it would have spread back to Central Asia, Iran, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia with the Indo-Iranian expansion. I argued that the Mycenaeans, a Steppe people related to the Indo-Iranians, would have brought E-V13 to Greece around 1650 BCE.

    The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans.

    E-V13 would have arrived in Central Europe by 2800 BCE. I believe that the absence of E-V13 among the Bretons and Highland Scots is due to the fact that early R1b tribes that propagated west during the Bell Beaker period were almost purely R1b, and those who colonised the British Isles appear to have been mostly R1b-L21. The ancient Beaker samples from Britain confirm that. So, originally the Irish and ancient Bretons would not have carried any E-V13. E-V13 would have come later to Britain and Ireland, with the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons.

    Likewise, it is highly doubtful that there was any E-V13 in the Iberian and Italian peninsulas until the Late Bronze Age, as R1b tribes in the Beaker period had no E-V13, and later waves only came from 1500 BCE in Iberia and 1300 BCE in Italy.

    E-V13 would have spread to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture and thus have been found among all Germanic people later on, if at relatively low frequency.

    When R1b tribes settled in Central Europe, they progressively mixed with the Corded Ware people (R1a, G2a, E-V13) during the Unetice period. By the time of the Tumulus culture (1600 to 1200 BCE), J2b2-Z628 would have arrived from the Steppe to Central Europe (presence confirmed in Croatia c. 1700-1500 BCE) and would have joined the mix. R1b-U152 became the dominant lineage around the Alps in what would become the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures (1300-500 BCE). I have long asserted that those Urnfield/Hallstatt, who also gave rise to the Italic tribes, belonged chiefly to R1b-U152 with substantial minorities of G2a (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades), J2a1-L70 and J2b2-L283 (Z628 clade).

    In my Genetic history of the Benelux & France, I also posited that the Hallstatt people would have also carried minorities of E-V13, I2a2b-L38 and I2c1, as well as possibly some Corded Ware R1a-M458 and locally assimilated Neolithic T1a. I now think that E-V13 may have been much more important, perhaps even the second main Hallstatt Celtic and Italic lineage after R1b-U152 and before G2a-Z1816.

    A relatively high proportion of E-V13 among Hallstatt Celts and Italics would explain how E-V13 reached the frequencies observed today in Italy (about the same as in south Germany), at least in the northern half, as the southern E-V13 is presumably more of Greek origin (with nevertheless some Italic E-V13 lineages).

    It especially explains the high percentage of E-V13 in western Iberia and along the Mediterranean coast of Spain. The Hallstatt Celts colonised especially the western half of Iberia. Then the Romans later established a lot of colonies along the Mediterranean coast of Spain and all over Andalusia. When we look at the map, that corresponds to these two combined regions. Lower frequencies of E-V13 are observed in other parts of Spain with a smaller number of colonies, and neither the Hallstatt Celts nor the Romans settled in or around the Basque country, where there is indeed no E-V13.

    One surprising thing when seeing the map is the lower amount of E-V13 in France, as the French have Alpine Celtic, Roman and Germanic heritage, all people who possessed E-V13 lineages. Actually I am not sure about the frequency of E-V13 in France due to the little data available for E1b1b subclades, or in general the low availability of Y-DNA data from France. But the E1b1b map clearly shows an east to west gradient, which is expected if E-V13 spread from Central Europe westward.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-04-18 at 22:23.
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    How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.

    Hello Ironside, Can you please expand a little more your post as its rather generic in its content, in relevance to the title of this thread. Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.
    Hi Maciamo, nice post in general. What convinced you of this particularly? Specifically the middle ages part
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hi Maciamo, nice post in general. What convinced you of this particularly? Specifically the middle ages part
    I should have said since the Middle Ages. Here are a few examples of subclades found in the region:

    - Z38456 (Albania, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 1650 years (but its subclade BY4459>Y92017 is specific to Albania and more recent)
    - PH2180 (Albania, Kosovo) => TMRCA 1650 years
    - BY5423 (Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 900 years

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Happy to see that someone tslks about this ydna... so Maciamo do you think that E-V13 is not of Balkanic origin but has come with IE invasions?! Do you beliebe that Dorians have brought it in The Balkans?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.
    You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

    There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

    V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

    We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

    There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

    V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

    We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.
    No there isn't, unless by a lot you mean one person from a thousand, then maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Hello Ironside, Can you please expand a little more your post as its rather generic in its content, in relevance to the title of this thread. Thank you
    Roman veterans were granted land after they completed their service in the military, Roman legions were composed of Roman citizens typically from the Italian peninsula, but auxilaries which contributed most of the cavalry and archers were from the non-citizen inhabitants of the vast Roman Empire, after a period of 25 years they were granted citizinship and maybe some were granted lands in the colonies.

    I'm not sure of the last part though, was colonization only from Italy or did the other provinces take part in the process as well ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.

    "Near Eastern" mtDna and yDna have been in Europe since the Neolithic, with more arriving in the Bronze Age, and that includes places like France and Central Europe, and also places the Romans never set foot, like Poland.

    You'd have to have very detailed sub-clade information to make deductions as to time period of arrival.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

    There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

    V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

    We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

    Rome is in Italy, if Romans had brought slaves from Syria then the epicentre of E-V13 would be modern Italy not on the high mountains of Albania.
    You can see how slavery works by looking around you, African-Americans are descendants of slaves brought from Africa in the USA.
    The same would have occurred if Romans had brought slaves from Syria. They would live today in Italy not in an undeveloped region of a different country.
    Do you have any references about what you said? Because it sounds ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I should have said since the Middle Ages. Here are a few examples of subclades found in the region:

    - Z38456 (Albania, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 1650 years (but its subclade BY4459>Y92017 is specific to Albania and more recent)
    - PH2180 (Albania, Kosovo) => TMRCA 1650 years
    - BY5423 (Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 900 years

    What about these:





    If @Trojet is around maybe he can help since he knows this the best

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    How does the age of the clades in Kurdistan and what appears to be Tartarstan compare to those in Central Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    Rome is in Italy, if Romans had brought slaves from Syria then the epicentre of E-V13 would be modern Italy not on the high mountains of Albania.
    You can see how slavery works by looking around you, African-Americans are descendants of slaves brought from Africa in the USA.
    The same would have occurred if Romans had brought slaves from Syria. They would live today in Italy not in an undeveloped region of a different country.
    Do you have any references about what you said? Because it sounds ridiculous.
    If we follow your line of reasoning, the English colonial empire would have imported slaves into England, and not in an undeveloped region of a different continent. Even then there were mass expulsion events of slaves, the most well-known being the Jewish exodus out of Egypt.

    The bottom line is that there is a significantly stronger connection between V13 and the Middle East than between I2a and the Middle East. So whichever way V13 arrived, it highly likely arrived later, and in bulk.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    No there isn't, unless by a lot you mean one person from a thousand, then maybe.

    It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    If we follow your line of reasoning, the English colonial empire would have imported slaves into England, and not in an undeveloped region of a different continent. Even then there were mass expulsion events of slaves, the most well-known being the Jewish exodus out of Egypt.

    The bottom line is that there is a significantly stronger connection between V13 and the Middle East than between I2a and the Middle East. So whichever way V13 arrived, it highly likely arrived later, and in bulk.


    It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.

    My line of reasoning says that Afrikan-Americans were brought in the US as slaves and today their descendants live there.
    Are you saying that they didn't came there as Slaves? How do you explain their presence then?

    They were brought there and DEVELOPED the region and furthermore the US. right?

    Rome is located here 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E

    Prizren (f.e) is located here 42°12′50″ N 20°44′22″ E

    According to google maps the distance is 907km ( 563 miles ) and it takes 157 ( 6 1/2 days ) hours by non-stop walking + ferry to cross the Adriatik sea, in antiquity the time was definitely longer as a result of the lack of internal-combustion engines,GPS,etc, so let's presume you needed 10 days by non-stop walking or horse-riding.





    How exactly did these slaves located in such a distance served Rome ?
    And what exactly did they developed in the high-mountains of Albania and Kosovo that could be useful to Romans?
    I'm just trying to understand your way of thinking, it seems you're quite off the track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.
    Honey, your argument was because a couple of guys from the Arab Gulf are V13, then the thousands of V13 in Europe are slaves from Syria, seriously?

    No need to invoke slavery here, but its more likely that they were European slaves brought to Arabia, but I don't believe that because humans can move without them being enslaved.

    the few V13 in Arabia are concentrated in the East coast, a region historically tied to Iran and Mesopotamia, and we know some V13 is present there, I don't know how, but it's interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Pashaj View Post
    Happy to see that someone tslks about this ydna... so Maciamo do you think that E-V13 is not of Balkanic origin but has come with IE invasions?! Do you beliebe that Dorians have brought it in The Balkans?
    I didn't say that E-V13 wasn't Balkanic in origins. The mutation may have first arisen in the Balkans then spread to the Carpathians and Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillia), then the lineage would have been absorbed by the IE tribes. Indo-European clades of E-V13 were surely present all over the Balkans since the Bronze Age, but the most of the deep clades found around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, etc. appear to have expanded only in the last 1650 to 900 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What about these:





    If @Trojet is around maybe he can help since he knows this the best
    Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:

    - L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.

    - Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.

    - Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    How does the age of the clades in Kurdistan and what appears to be Tartarstan compare to those in Central Europe?
    Which clades are you referring to? There are so many in Central Europe with ages between 4900 and 500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

    There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

    V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

    We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

    I thought it was clear from my post above that E-V13 in Iran, Iraq and Gulf States was of Indo-Iranian origin. There is a substantial minority of typically Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93, and to a lower extent R1b-Z2103, in countries like the UAE and Qatar. E-V13 came with them.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The distribution and origins of E-V13 are one of the most perplexing of any haplogroups. Over the years people have hypothesised that it originated with ancient Greeks, Neolithic farmers, Balkans people, Steppe people, Romans, Celts, Indo-Europeans in general or whatever imaginable scenario.

    What we know almost for sure at present is that E-V13 is too young to have spread around Europe during the Neolithic. Yfull.com estimates that it formed 7700 years ago, but that all present day carriers descend from a man who lived only 4900 years ago, during the Early Bronze Age. Additionally, 99% of E-V13 individuals are also positive for the CTS5856 (aka CTS1273 or CTS7237), whose last common ancestor goes back only 4200 years ago, when R1b tribes had already reached the British Isles.

    Most of us got mislead by the presumed finding of an E-V13 sample in Early Neolithic Catalonia. But it turned out that that sample was not tested for SNPs and was only predicted to be E-V13 based on STR samples. It probably belonged to its parent clade, the much older E-L618 (12,300 years old according to Yfull.com).

    Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.




    When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.

    I have explained in my history of E-V13 that this lineage became assimilated by the Indo-European Steppe invaders around the time of the Corded Ware expansion (R1a) and the expansion of R1b tribes to the Balkans and Danubian basin. From there, it would have spread back to Central Asia, Iran, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia with the Indo-Iranian expansion. I argued that the Mycenaeans, a Steppe people related to the Indo-Iranians, would have brought E-V13 to Greece around 1650 BCE.

    The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans.

    E-V13 would have arrived in Central Europe by 2800 BCE. I believe that the absence of E-V13 among the Bretons and Highland Scots is due to the fact that early R1b tribes that propagated west during the Bell Beaker period were almost purely R1b, and those who colonised the British Isles appear to have been mostly R1b-L21. The ancient Beaker samples from Britain confirm that. So, originally the Irish and ancient Bretons would not have carried any E-V13. E-V13 would have come later to Britain and Ireland, with the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons.

    Likewise, it is highly doubtful that there was any E-V13 in the Iberian and Italian peninsulas until the Late Bronze Age, as R1b tribes in the Beaker period had no E-V13, and later waves only came from 1500 BCE in Iberia and 1300 BCE in Italy.

    E-V13 would have spread to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture and thus have been found among all Germanic people later on, if at relatively low frequency.

    When R1b tribes settled in Central Europe, they progressively mixed with the Corded Ware people (R1a, G2a, E-V13) during the Unetice period. By the time of the Tumulus culture (1600 to 1200 BCE), J2b2-Z628 would have arrived from the Steppe to Central Europe (presence confirmed in Croatia c. 1700-1500 BCE) and would have joined the mix. R1b-U152 became the dominant lineage around the Alps in what would become the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures (1300-500 BCE). I have long asserted that those Urnfield/Hallstatt, who also gave rise to the Italic tribes, belonged chiefly to R1b-U152 with substantial minorities of G2a (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades) and J2b2-L283 (Z628 clade).

    In my Genetic history of the Benelux & France, I also posited that the Hallstatt people would have also carried minorities of E-V13, I2a2b-L38 and I2c1, as well as possibly some Corded Ware R1a-M458 and locally assimilated Neolithic T1a. I now think that E-V13 may have been much more important, perhaps even the second main Hallstatt Celtic and Italic lineage after R1b-U152 and before G2a-Z1816.

    A relatively high proportion of E-V13 among Hallstatt Celts and Italics would explain how E-V13 reached the frequencies observed today in Italy (about the same as in south Germany), at least in the northern half, as the southern E-V13 is presumably more of Greek origin (with nevertheless some Italic E-V13 lineages).

    It especially explains the high percentage of E-V13 in western Iberia and along the Mediterranean coast of Spain. The Hallstatt Celts colonised especially the western half of Iberia. Then the Romans later established a lot of colonies along the Mediterranean coast of Spain and all over Andalusia. When we look at the map, that corresponds to these two combined regions. Lower frequencies of E-V13 are observed in other parts of Spain with a smaller number of colonies, and neither the Hallstatt Celts nor the Romans settled in or around the Basque country, where there is indeed no E-V13.

    One surprising thing when seeing the map is the lower amount of E-V13 in France, as the French have Alpine Celtic, Roman and Germanic heritage, all people who possessed E-V13 lineages. Actually I am not sure about the frequency of E-V13 in France due to the little data available for E1b1b subclades, or in general the low availability of Y-DNA data from France. But the E1b1b map clearly shows an east to west gradient, which is expected if E-V13 spread from Central Europe westward.
    dalmatia and italy where joined before the great flood circa 7000 years ago, if E-V13 was northern balkan or even around noricum it would have been present equally in these areas as it is in south balkans today......the likely scenario is what was written in the paper last year in that thessally, and cyprus played a major part
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    dalmatia and italy where joined before the great flood circa 7000 years ago, if E-V13 was northern balkan or even around noricum it would have been present equally in these areas as it is in south balkans today......the likely scenario is what was written in the paper last year in that thessally, and cyprus played a major part
    Italian E-V13 clades are much younger than that. In fact they are usually not much older than 3000 years from what I have seen.

    - Z19851 (eg Lombardy) : TMRCA 3400 ybp
    - FGC11457 (eg Sicily) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
    - PF6784 (eg Calabria) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
    - FGC11450 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
    - Z25461 (eg Lombardy, Sardinia) : TMRCA 3000 ybp
    - BY6162 : less than 3000 ybp (as parent clade is 3000 ybp)
    - S2978 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 2600 ybp
    - PH1173 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 1950 ybp
    - BY6527 (eg Sicily, Calabria) : TMRCA 1550 ybp

    Notice how, except for one slightly older sample from Lombardy, all ages are younger than the Italic migrations, which started 3200 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:

    - L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.

    - Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.

    - Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.

    Trojet has more and knows them more in depth. I only have this image that he made. He is busy with work I'm sure he will visit when more free and fill in some gaps : D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I thought it was clear from my post above that E-V13 in Iran, Iraq and Gulf States was of Indo-Iranian origin. There is a substantial minority of typically Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93, and to a lower extent R1b-Z2103, in countries like the UAE and Qatar. E-V13 came with them.
    YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

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    It could be significant for the discussion so I'm attaching the root of the E-V13 tree as it is composed based on the latest available data. The diversity of E-V13 per region should probably be discussed on the level on which are S3003, BY3880, Z16663, BY14151 and Y30976. In that sense Southern Germany indeed does have higher diversity than most of the other regions in Europe, but it is hard to attribute the expansion of E-V13 to Celts based on such argument. In my opinion E-V13 expanded in Europe at the time before the Celts come into play.



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