Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

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So, after being new here and spent 2 hours reading this topic, seems almost all previous assumptions were wrong. Let's summarize them (wrong assumptions):
1. Albanians have ones of the most recent e-v13 subclades
2. E-v13 originated north of Danube, Dacia/Moldavia
3. E-v13 spread from east to west Europe
4. So on....

Albanians are now more tested than most Balkan populations so they do have various clades of this and that. Now Albanians emotionally desire for E-V13 to have been primarily Illyrian haplogroup, because Enver Hoxha said so and because many people have this victimization cult "X, Y, Z came to our lands and occupied them bla bla".

My problem with this: V13 was there (Western Balkans) in Neolithic, so if it's primarily Illyrian then it is 2nd rate-Illyrian/Pelasgian. I'm not fond of being 2nd, 3rd rate in anything. Logic says that BA hg's that are usually dispersive have their thing going on, that they don't get ordered around but the opposite. Of course many Albanian V13 gladly play the court jester of J-L283 or R-Z2705, but I don't. You have some basal clades in the East already at CTS1273 level. I do have archaeological and even genetic evidence of V13 clades moving away from the Western Balkans (partly because of arrival of others, presumably J-L283).
Especially what concerns me is my own subclade.

Some archaeologists say that actually Daco-Thracian thing was Late Bronze Age, Early Iron age. Connected with Srubnaya Noa-Coslogeni culture. Some R-Z93's we see around are likely connected to that, but they aren't numerous. Who is numerous and diverse in Daco-Triballian areas with a low TMRCA is actually E-CTS9320. There were other cultures nearby such as Gava, Basarabi who played their part. Honestly I was missing some Srubnaya like, Cimmerian like link for CTS9320 until yesterday, when it turned out that an Ossetian is a basal CTS9320* (at that level) without any links (probably even SNP links) to any other CTS9320 that has been identified.

Other than CTS9320 clades, there is really nothing on the territory of Dacia which wold suggest some proto-Dacians. R-Z2103 in Romania is very weak. R-L51 being much stronger. And Z2103 in Romania mostly from current limited data has recent Southern connections. Such as R-Z2705, R-A12332 cluster found in some Moldavians/Romanians but also Aromanians from Albania, Greece.

So me thinks u've got a problem with Dacian E-V13, but I'm afraid Dacians were 30-50 % E-V13+ population. Who was Dacian, Slavic-Bastarnic I2a?? Or Slavic R1a's? Or R-U152? Some R-L51 might have been there in Dacian times from earlier Urnfield movements but the bulk arrived later. Though also those Celts were Dacian later as they Dacians eventually got better of Celts.

Hey, is somebody here to show us a DECENT grand-picture on what's the real deal with E-v13 haplogroup ? I'm 'fixed' with this E, because in my opinion this haplo contributed most to the forming civilization values of the western world.

In my opinion this haplogroup contributed little to "civilisation values" in Western World. Most of E-V13 in the West descends from Roman legionaries etc.
 
When it comes to Balkan Slav logic way of thinking, they will try to deny any Albanian-Illyrian connection until doomsday.

Whatever complain you guys pose about Albanians, it's your fault solely. You started this stupid games in online boards, Albanians didn't give **** until they spotted your sneaky nature and how you spread lies.

Let me ask you something, starting from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croatians and Bosnians. Which population of you can explain the meaning of your nation ethnonym in your own native language? None of you.

Atleast Albanians, can explain everything regarding themself, Shqip, Arber, Ilir, Dardan, Bardhyl etc etc etc. Deal with it.
 
Albanians are now more tested than most Balkan populations so they do have various clades of this and that. Now Albanians emotionally desire for E-V13 to have been primarily Illyrian haplogroup, because Enver Hoxha said so and because many people have this victimization cult "X, Y, Z came to our lands and occupied them bla bla".

My problem with this: V13 was there (Western Balkans) in Neolithic, so if it's primarily Illyrian then it is 2nd rate-Illyrian/Pelasgian. I'm not fond of being 2nd, 3rd rate in anything. Logic says that BA hg's that are usually dispersive have their thing going on, that they don't get ordered around but the opposite. Of course many Albanian V13 gladly play the court jester of J-L283 or R-Z2705, but I don't. You have some basal clades in the East already at CTS1273 level. I do have archaeological and even genetic evidence of V13 clades moving away from the Western Balkans (partly because of arrival of others, presumably J-L283).
Especially what concerns me is my own subclade.

Some archaeologists say that actually Daco-Thracian thing was Late Bronze Age, Early Iron age. Connected with Srubnaya Noa-Coslogeni culture. Some R-Z93's we see around are likely connected to that, but they aren't numerous. Who is numerous and diverse in Daco-Triballian areas with a low TMRCA is actually E-CTS9320. There were other cultures nearby such as Gava, Basarabi who played their part. Honestly I was missing some Srubnaya like, Cimmerian like link for CTS9320 until yesterday, when it turned out that an Ossetian is a basal CTS9320* (at that level) without any links (probably even SNP links) to any other CTS9320 that has been identified.

Other than CTS9320 clades, there is really nothing on the territory of Dacia which wold suggest some proto-Dacians. R-Z2103 in Romania is very weak. R-L51 being much stronger. And Z2103 in Romania mostly from current limited data has recent Southern connections. Such as R-Z2705, R-A12332 cluster found in some Moldavians/Romanians but also Aromanians from Albania, Greece.

So me thinks u've got a problem with Dacian E-V13, but I'm afraid Dacians were 30-50 % E-V13+ population. Who was Dacian, Slavic-Bastarnic I2a?? Or Slavic R1a's? Or R-U152? Some R-L51 might have been there in Dacian times from earlier Urnfield movements but the bulk arrived later. Though also those Celts were Dacian later as they Dacians eventually got better of Celts.



In my opinion this haplogroup contributed little to "civilisation values" in Western World. Most of E-V13 in the West descends from Roman legionaries etc.
I do believe that you're a smart guy who is very knowledgeable about these things, but I honestly don't understand what you are on about in the first two paragraphs.

The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)
 
I do believe that you're a smart guy who is very knowledgeable about these things, but I honestly don't understand what you are on about in the first two paragraphs.

The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)

Illyria ( illyricum ) is really noted as a geographical area .....like saying britain or iberia .............but if they say Dardanian ( which is where Kosovo is now ) , then this is more exacting, a tribal name.......
Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Iapodes etc etc are all tribal names ...Under the geographical name of Illyria/Illyricum ..............I do not recall any romans mentioning Illyrians, but always mentioned their tribal names

in regards to Dacians......are they Dacians or coastal Getae , ............I could be wrong, but Dacians where not on the black sea , while Getae where

in regards to V13, it seems concentrated in kosovo , but diminishes greatly as you head north being replaced by V22 as it reaches the alps
 
Illyria ( illyricum ) is really noted as a geographical area .....like saying britain or iberia .............but if they say Dardanian ( which is where Kosovo is now ) , then this is more exacting, a tribal name.......
Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Iapodes etc etc are all tribal names ...Under the geographical name of Illyria/Illyricum ..............I do not recall any romans mentioning Illyrians, but always mentioned their tribal names

in regards to Dacians......are they Dacians or coastal Getae , ............I could be wrong, but Dacians where not on the black sea , while Getae where

in regards to V13, it seems concentrated in kosovo , but diminishes greatly as you head north being replaced by V22 as it reaches the alps
True, Illyria is somewhat of a geographical area. However, evidence does seem to suggest the tribes of Illyria spoke languages which belonged to the same branch of IE, despite the differences. Would be best to call these tribes Illyric speaking.

Glinoe is a Scythian site, the people who lived there seem to have been part of the Scythian culture based on the archaeological evidence. Though, based on auDNA we can assume that some of these samples were actually originally Daco-Thracian speaking. We can't tell what tribe or Daco-Thracian speaking group they belonged to, though the Getae did occupy the lands nearby.

E-V13 is still found in higher percentages than E-V22 in Europe, even as you head further north. E-V22 is found in negligible amounts across Europe.
 
When it comes to Balkan Slav logic way of thinking, they will try to deny any Albanian-Illyrian connection until doomsday.


Whatever complain you guys pose about Albanians, it's your fault solely. You started this stupid games in online boards, Albanians didn't give **** until they spotted your sneaky nature and how you spread lies.


Let me ask you something, starting from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croatians and Bosnians. Which population of you can explain the meaning of your nation ethnonym in your own native language? None of you.


Atleast Albanians, can explain everything regarding themself, Shqip, Arber, Ilir, Dardan, Bardhyl etc etc etc. Deal with it.


Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.



The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.


By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.


Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.


If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..


As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)


Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).
 
Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.






By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.




The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.




I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..





Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).

I have hard time to connect E-V13 with pelasgians considering this map IMG_4067.JPG


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.






By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.




The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.




I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..





Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).

Did you checkout the paper from 2017 by serkan dogan in regards to bosnian ydna
 
That's it.

Another Albanian ruined thread.

You're lucky a bunch of you aren't banned.

DO NOT GO OFF TOPIC TO GET INTO YOUR ALBANIAN NATIONALIST CENTERED VIEW OF GENETICS.

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