Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 25 of 121

Thread: Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

Threaded View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Points: 710,347, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 25.0%

    Ethnic group
    Country: Belgium - Brussels

    6 members found this post helpful.

    Post Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics?

    The distribution and origins of E-V13 are one of the most perplexing of any haplogroups. Over the years people have hypothesised that it originated with ancient Greeks, Neolithic farmers, Balkans people, Steppe people, Romans, Celts, Indo-Europeans in general or whatever imaginable scenario.

    What we know almost for sure at present is that E-V13 is too young to have spread around Europe during the Neolithic. estimates that it formed 7700 years ago, but that all present day carriers descend from a man who lived only 4900 years ago, during the Early Bronze Age. Additionally, 99% of E-V13 individuals are also positive for the CTS5856 (aka CTS1273 or CTS7237), whose last common ancestor goes back only 4200 years ago, when R1b tribes had already reached the British Isles.

    Most of us got mislead by the presumed finding of an E-V13 sample in Early Neolithic Catalonia. But it turned out that that sample was not tested for SNPs and was only predicted to be E-V13 based on STR samples. It probably belonged to its parent clade, the much older E-L618 (12,300 years old according to

    Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.

    When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.

    I have explained in my history of E-V13 that this lineage became assimilated by the Indo-European Steppe invaders around the time of the Corded Ware expansion (R1a) and the expansion of R1b tribes to the Balkans and Danubian basin. From there, it would have spread back to Central Asia, Iran, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia with the Indo-Iranian expansion. I argued that the Mycenaeans, a Steppe people related to the Indo-Iranians, would have brought E-V13 to Greece around 1650 BCE.

    The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans.

    E-V13 would have arrived in Central Europe by 2800 BCE. I believe that the absence of E-V13 among the Bretons and Highland Scots is due to the fact that early R1b tribes that propagated west during the Bell Beaker period were almost purely R1b, and those who colonised the British Isles appear to have been mostly R1b-L21. The ancient Beaker samples from Britain confirm that. So, originally the Irish and ancient Bretons would not have carried any E-V13. E-V13 would have come later to Britain and Ireland, with the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons.

    Likewise, it is highly doubtful that there was any E-V13 in the Iberian and Italian peninsulas until the Late Bronze Age, as R1b tribes in the Beaker period had no E-V13, and later waves only came from 1500 BCE in Iberia and 1300 BCE in Italy.

    E-V13 would have spread to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture and thus have been found among all Germanic people later on, if at relatively low frequency.

    When R1b tribes settled in Central Europe, they progressively mixed with the Corded Ware people (R1a, G2a, E-V13) during the Unetice period. By the time of the Tumulus culture (1600 to 1200 BCE), J2b2-Z628 would have arrived from the Steppe to Central Europe (presence confirmed in Croatia c. 1700-1500 BCE) and would have joined the mix. R1b-U152 became the dominant lineage around the Alps in what would become the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures (1300-500 BCE). I have long asserted that those Urnfield/Hallstatt, who also gave rise to the Italic tribes, belonged chiefly to R1b-U152 with substantial minorities of G2a (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades), J2a1-L70 and J2b2-L283 (Z628 clade).

    In my Genetic history of the Benelux & France, I also posited that the Hallstatt people would have also carried minorities of E-V13, I2a2b-L38 and I2c1, as well as possibly some Corded Ware R1a-M458 and locally assimilated Neolithic T1a. I now think that E-V13 may have been much more important, perhaps even the second main Hallstatt Celtic and Italic lineage after R1b-U152 and before G2a-Z1816.

    A relatively high proportion of E-V13 among Hallstatt Celts and Italics would explain how E-V13 reached the frequencies observed today in Italy (about the same as in south Germany), at least in the northern half, as the southern E-V13 is presumably more of Greek origin (with nevertheless some Italic E-V13 lineages).

    It especially explains the high percentage of E-V13 in western Iberia and along the Mediterranean coast of Spain. The Hallstatt Celts colonised especially the western half of Iberia. Then the Romans later established a lot of colonies along the Mediterranean coast of Spain and all over Andalusia. When we look at the map, that corresponds to these two combined regions. Lower frequencies of E-V13 are observed in other parts of Spain with a smaller number of colonies, and neither the Hallstatt Celts nor the Romans settled in or around the Basque country, where there is indeed no E-V13.

    One surprising thing when seeing the map is the lower amount of E-V13 in France, as the French have Alpine Celtic, Roman and Germanic heritage, all people who possessed E-V13 lineages. Actually I am not sure about the frequency of E-V13 in France due to the little data available for E1b1b subclades, or in general the low availability of Y-DNA data from France. But the E1b1b map clearly shows an east to west gradient, which is expected if E-V13 spread from Central Europe westward.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-04-18 at 22:23.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts