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Thread: Messapian - Albanian connection

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    Messapian - Albanian connection

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    The data used in the study are inaccurate. Let say Greeks have high presence of J2a which is not reflected. Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%. Few things I noted while quickly scanning the article. As for Illyrian ancestry of Puglia that is documented but proving it through DNA its not quite convincing. When Illyrians arrived there other people already living so the present day people are a mixture. Also Puglia has a lot of recent Albanian immigrants from middle ages to present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    The data used in the study are inaccurate. Let say Greeks have high presence of J2a which is not reflected. Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%. Few things I noted while quickly scanning the article.
    The study is from 2012 so it could have recorded different levels of J2a. Which level is "high" presence for you? In the 2012 they show up as 8.7% J2a.

    Regardless, the Ev13 and J2b2-L283 is accurate and is more or less reflected the same in contemporary studies and the Albanian Bloodlines project.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%

    I don't know where you're getting this, but I would love to see a source. The Albanian Bloodlines project has R1a showing up in 5.6% of Fyrom Albanians.

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    Messapian - Albanian connection

    Thanks Johane Derite :)
    If the paper is correct, it partially explains the % of Balkan given to Apulians by 23andme.

    “... Although low-resolution haplogroups capture only some of the total variability, regional differences are also identified in other areas of the Peninsula. For instance, South Apulian groups (GS, AP and LE) turned out to be far away from North-Western Apulia (NWA) and located between the Near Eastern and Balkan population clusters, a finding that is strongly suggestive of a Greek influence, especially for the Grecìa Salentina (GS). Conversely, the proximity of the “non-Grecanic” Apulians (AP) to Crete, one of the first areas reached by Neolithic Near Eastern farmers, supports the scenario that the same genetic stock also reached Apulia by Sea.. ..”
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    you need to realise the messapians where a sub-tribe of
    The Iapygians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) were an Indo-European people who inhabited Apulia in classical antiquity. They lived in the eponymous region Iapygia and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.
    .
    Pre-Roman ceramic evidence justifies Strabo's classification of Daunii, Peucetii and Messapii, who were all speakers of the Messapian language. There were twelve tribal proto-statelets among the Peucetii, one of which is represented by modern Altamura.
    The Encyclopédie under "Peuceti", distinguishes them from another ancient people, the Peucetioe who were living in Liburnia at the head of the Adriatic, with a reference to Callimachus, as quoted in Pliny (H.N. III.21) placing their country in Pliny's day as part of Illyria[5] but modern ethnography treats them as synonyms.[6]

    to conclude the messapii and the others came from northern part of the adriatic .....the liburnian illyrian tribe , famous seafarers who until 700 BC controlled the messapii south italy plus corfu..........they lost both areas to the corinthians who also then settled in durres, butrino in albania and many parts of western sicliy, plus taranto.
    .
    .
    Herodotus distinctly applies the term of Iapygia to the peninsula, and calls the Messapians an Iapygian tribe; though he evidently did not limit it to this portion of Italy, and must have extended it, at all events, to the land of the Peucetians, if not of the Daunians also. (Hdt. 4.99, 7.170.) Aristotle also clearly identifies the Iapygians with the Messapians (Pol. 5.3), though the limits within which he applies the name of Iapygia (Ib. 7.10) cannot be defined. Indeed, the name of the Iapygian promontory (ἡ ἄκρα ἡ Ἰαπυγία), universally given to the headland which formed the extreme point of the peninsula, sufficiently proves that this was considered to belong to Iapygia. Strabo confines the term of Iapygia to the peninsula, and says that it was called by some Iapygia, by others Messapia or Calabria. (Strab. vi. pp. 281, 282.) Appian and Dionysius Periegetes, on the contrary, follow Polybius in applying the name of Iapygia to the Roman Apulia, and the latter expressly says that the Iapygian tribes extended as far as Hyrium on the N. side of Mt. Garganus.
    The Greek mythographers, as usual, derived the name from a hero, Iapyx, whom they represented as a son of Lycaon, a descent probably intended to indicate the Pelasgic origin of the Iapygians.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    If the paper is correct, it partially explains the % of Balkan given to Apulians by 23andme.

    “... Although low-resolution haplogroups capture only some of the total variability, regional differences are also identified in other areas of the Peninsula. For instance, South Apulian groups (GS, AP and LE) turned out to be far away from North-Western Apulia (NWA) and located between the Near Eastern and Balkan population clusters, a finding that is strongly suggestive of a Greek influence, especially for the Grecìa Salentina (GS). Conversely, the proximity of the “non-Grecanic” Apulians (AP) to Crete, one of the first areas reached by Neolithic Near Eastern farmers, supports the scenario that the same genetic stock also reached Apulia by Sea.. ..”
    Awesome, didn't know about this!

    I think there is also ample archaeological evidence that Illyrians did contribute to Messapians. Here is just one case of the Messapian helmet:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    you need to realise the messapians where a sub-tribe of
    The Iapygians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) were an Indo-European people who inhabited Apulia in classical antiquity. They lived in the eponymous region Iapygia and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.

    Messapian words

    Messapian lexical item Proposed cognates
    Bréntion (from Messapian bréndon, bréntion) (Brindisi, Italy) Brindisi: "Brin" - "Brinë" ("Horn" in Albanian); "Disi" - "Dashi" ("Ram", "Aries" in Albanian) Swedish brinde ("elk"), Latvian briêdis ("deer"), Lithuanianbriedis, ("elk"), Old Prussian braydis, ("elk"),[3] Thracian Brendike [1] (which was a Thracian toponym located just east of Dikaia) Albanian bri, brî - pl. brirë, brinë ("horn"; "antler") [< late Proto-Albanian *brina < earlier *brena ].[4] The Messapian word is glossed early as "deer", then narrowed in meaning to a deer's head (cf. Strabo caput cervi), then possibly by metonymy to its antlers in early Albanian, and by extension and excrescence, thus modern "horn".
    Menzana cf. Albanian mëz - meza ("colt")[5]
    penkaheh Torp identifies this as the Messapian word for the number "five", from PIE *penkwe-, "five" (Lithuanian penki (five), (Albanian pesë (five)
    apa = "from" Alb. Gheg dialect pi (PI < apa) ("from") or pa (PA < apa) ("without"), Greek apó, Sanskrit ápa[6]
    bilia = "daughter" Latin filia, Albanian bijë - "bija" ("daughter") older dialect bilë - "bila" ("daughter")[6]
    ma = "not" Greek , Sanskrit , Albanian ma, me, mos

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    And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:


    Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09
    Y Haplogroup Macedonians Albanians Others Total
    E1b1b1a-M78 15.60% 28.80% 14.30% 19.80%
    E1b1b1b-M81 0 1.80% 0 0.60%
    E1b1b1c1-M34 2.40% 1.80% 0 2%
    G-M201 3.80% 2.70% 4.80% 3.50%
    H-M69 1.40% 1.80% 14.30% 2.30%
    1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 0 1.80% 4.80% 0.90%
    I1-M253 1.90% 6.30% 0 3.20%
    I2a-P37b 27.50% 1.80% 0 17.50%
    I2b1-M223 1.90% 1.80% 4.80% 2%
    J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2 3.30% 1.80% 0 2.60%
    J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172 4.70% 2.70% 9.50% 4.40%
    J2a4b-M67 2.80% 2.70% 9.50% 3.20%
    J2b2-M241 5.20% 13.50% 4.80% 7.90%
    L-M22 0.50% 0% 0 0.30%
    N1c-Tat 0.50% 0 0 0.30%
    P*(xR1)-92R7 0.50% 0 4.80% 0.60%
    R1*-M173 0.50% 0 0 0.30%
    R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu 14.20% 12.60% 4.80% 13.10%
    R1b1-P25 11.40% 18% 23.80% 14.30%
    T-M70 1.90% 0 0 1.20%
    TOTAL 100.00% 99.90% 100.20% 100.00%
    * M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations






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    G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

    Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
    Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
    Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
    E1b1b = 24%
    J2a = 13%
    J2b = 6%
    J1 = 3%
    G2a = 6%
    R1b = 16%
    R1a = 12%
    I = 15%
    T(+L) = 4%
    other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:






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    You are sharing statistics from 2006 to counter a later study that corroborates with statistics from 2018's Albanian bloodlines project statistics?

    Are people supposed to take you seriously? Either you are a false flagging fake Albanian account, or you are a ottoman sympathizer that wants to
    suppress history.

    I went through your profile and understood very well that you are a t*roll.

    You have a repeated pattern of interjecting into other peoples threads to derail them.

    You have nothing to add with outdated 12 year old data that is not corroborated, so kindly leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

    Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
    Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
    Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
    E1b1b = 24%
    J2a = 13%
    J2b = 6%
    J1 = 3%
    G2a = 6%
    R1b = 16%
    R1a = 12%
    I = 15%
    T(+L) = 4%
    other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%
    You are copy pasting forum comments from 2011 by greek accounts as evidence??


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

    Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
    Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
    Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
    E1b1b = 24%
    J2a = 13%
    J2b = 6%
    J1 = 3%
    G2a = 6%
    R1b = 16%
    R1a = 12%
    I = 15%
    T(+L) = 4%
    other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%
    Can you change your nickname please? Because is ofensive against Albanians.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Yes if the mods are watching, this is what tutkun means:
    "Stupid, backwards, idiot".

    Arnaut is turkish word for Albanian which can be used derogatorily.
    So his username speaks for itself..

    http://fjalorthi.com/tutkun

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Can you change your nickname please? Because is ofensive against Albanians.

    easy, easy arnaut, its a joke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes if the mods are watching, this is what tutkun means:
    "Stupid, backwards, idiot".

    Arnaut is turkish word for Albanian which can be used derogatorily.
    So his username speaks for itself..

    http://fjalorthi.com/tutkun
    it was done in purpose so other arnauts will recognize me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Messapian words

    Messapian lexical item Proposed cognates
    Bréntion (from Messapian bréndon, bréntion) (Brindisi, Italy) Brindisi: "Brin" - "Brinë" ("Horn" in Albanian); "Disi" - "Dashi" ("Ram", "Aries" in Albanian) Swedish brinde ("elk"), Latvian briêdis ("deer"), Lithuanianbriedis, ("elk"), Old Prussian braydis, ("elk"),[3] Thracian Brendike [1] (which was a Thracian toponym located just east of Dikaia) Albanian bri, brî - pl. brirë, brinë ("horn"; "antler") [< late Proto-Albanian *brina < earlier *brena ].[4] The Messapian word is glossed early as "deer", then narrowed in meaning to a deer's head (cf. Strabo caput cervi), then possibly by metonymy to its antlers in early Albanian, and by extension and excrescence, thus modern "horn".
    Menzana cf. Albanian mëz - meza ("colt")[5]
    penkaheh Torp identifies this as the Messapian word for the number "five", from PIE *penkwe-, "five" (Lithuanian penki (five), (Albanian pesë (five)
    apa = "from" Alb. Gheg dialect pi (PI < apa) ("from") or pa (PA < apa) ("without"), Greek apó, Sanskrit ápa[6]
    bilia = "daughter" Latin filia, Albanian bijë - "bija" ("daughter") older dialect bilë - "bila" ("daughter")[6]
    ma = "not" Greek , Sanskrit , Albanian ma, me, mos
    you still need to recognise these tribes (Daunians, Peucetians ) as part of the messapians .............why do you avoid this , when they are the same race

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    you still need to recognise these tribes (Daunians, Peucetians ) as part of the messapians .............why do you avoid this , when they are the same race
    There is no avoiding here. Daunians and peucetians spoke the messapian language so these cognates apply to them too.

    And it is well established that Messapians are considered a sub tribe quite distinct. They had seperate archeological cultures by the 7th century BC regardless.

    They are also referred to as "especially Illyrian" in texts like this for example:




    This thread is focussing on the Messapians. Is that not allowed..?

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    Messapian - Albanian connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    it was done in purpose so other arnauts will recognize me
    Moderators should not allow these insults....there are plenty of ways between Albanians to recognize each other....Tutkun Arnaut is offensive.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Moderators should not allow these insults....there are plenty of ways between Albanians to recognize each other....Tutkun Arnaut is offensive.


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    Don't respond to him, he was baiting for a reaction.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Messapian - Albanian connection

    Most Theories and Speculations about the Messapians.
    The Messapians


    The Messapians were the inhabitants of the southern part of the lapigia (Puglia), distinguished by the Peuceti (land of Bari) and the Dauni (land of Foggia) and recognized by the name of Salentini.
    We do not know where their name derives from. It is thought to mean "people between two seas" because they had settled in the area south of Puglia, between the Adriatic Sea and the Ionian, and because in their name there is the presence of the sound "ap", as also in lapigi and Apuli which means "water".
    It is also thought to mean "horse tamers" (Equorum Domitores, as Virgilio defines them); in fact they bred horses.
    Ephoto remembers them as a unitary and ethnically and culturally compact population; in part of his writing , the Messapians are defined as descendants of the Cretans, who pushed themselves along the coasts of Salento, they joined the populations already present, thus founding the first cities and bringing habits and customs that distinguished the Salentini from other populations.
    According to modern historians, however, the Messapians were of Illyrian lineage, as would be thought by the ethnic, geographical names, glosses and the language of the Messapian inscriptions, found in Puglia.
    They would arrive in Otranto around 1000 BC, as the nearest point to Albania, and then they would descend to S. Maria di Leuca and go up to Taranto. This derives from historical testimonies considered valid because the ancient authors speak of some trips thus carried out.
    Even Virgil in the Aeneid, referring to the wanderings of Aeneas, refers to a journey with a similar itinerary.
    The ancient historians assigned to the Messapians the entire peninsula from Brindisi and Taranto to the head of S. Maria di Leuca, as evidenced by the linguistic findings.
    The Messapian language is known to us by a considerable number of public inscriptions, funeral, votive, numismatic, found in Puglia especially in Salento, written in the Messapian alphabet, which is the Greek of Taranto.

    It is an Indo-European language that falls within the group of so-called "satem" languages, that is the Central-Eastern Indo-Europeans, presenting an affinity with today's Albanian. However, we do not know much about the Messapian language, or rather we can read it, but we can not understand it because the symbols, similar to those of the Greek alphabet, form words whose meaning is unknown.
    Not long ago, on the occasion of the revision of the knowledge about the peoples who, in the centuries before the birth of Rome, have inhabited the Italian peninsula and the Salento in particular, we began to talk about the Messapians or, rather, the "Sphinx Messapica", as it is a mysterious people that scholars are still searching for their secure origins and identity.
    "Nobody knows much about the Messapians and what little we know is so small and thin to look that is practically nothing. "These are the words of Oronzo Parlangeli, who devoted a large part of his studies to this mysterious people; hence the comparison with the Sphinx or, daring a little, with the Etruscans.
    In fact, it is known that, like the Etruscans, it was a proud people and bearer of its own independent civilization, but when the Romans arrived, they could not bear the impact, so they slowly disappeared.
    (in Italian) http://www.aikidoweb.it/public/?Cultura___I_Messapi

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    King Arthur,as a Balkan soldier

    My etymology, from Latin artus,with the usual s-r rhotacism, Arturius,the name is supported by the Balkanic backgrounds ,see the Messapic Artas,Artoria gens .

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/artus#Latin

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...ropean/h₂er-

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artas_of_Messapia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artoria_gens

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    King Arthas - The Great Lion of Messapia
    Messapian epos of the 5th century b. C. based on the deeds of King Arthas the Great and the Lions of Messapia.
    http://<a href="https://youtu.be/nLC...LCTBV8huCk</a>

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    Messapian - Albanian connection



    Greater Messapia
    Trailer of a docufiction
    http://<a href="https://youtu.be/r9a...9agh50jFNU</a>

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    Messapian - Albanian connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    King Arthur,as a Balkan soldier

    My etymology, from Latin artus,with the usual s-r rhotacism, Arturius,the name is supported by the Balkanic backgrounds ,see the Messapic Artas,Artoria gens .

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/artus#Latin

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...ropean/h₂er-

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artas_of_Messapia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artoria_gens
    Are you saying that the Name and part of the Legend of King Arthur could have been originally Inspired by King Artas of Messapia? :)

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    The Indo-European Languages

    edited by Mate Kapovic, Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat

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