Messapian - Albanian connection

Johane Derite

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Y-DNA haplogroup
E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
mtDNA haplogroup
U1a1a
South Europe paper link: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008249#f2
Italy haplogroups paper link: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801


Messapians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians?oldformat=true
Messapian Language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language?oldformat=true




IMAGE LINK: https://i.imgur.com/0i6oLdF.png


0i6oLdF.png
 

The data used in the study are inaccurate. Let say Greeks have high presence of J2a which is not reflected. Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%. Few things I noted while quickly scanning the article. As for Illyrian ancestry of Puglia that is documented but proving it through DNA its not quite convincing. When Illyrians arrived there other people already living so the present day people are a mixture. Also Puglia has a lot of recent Albanian immigrants from middle ages to present.
 
The data used in the study are inaccurate. Let say Greeks have high presence of J2a which is not reflected. Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%. Few things I noted while quickly scanning the article.

The study is from 2012 so it could have recorded different levels of J2a. Which level is "high" presence for you? In the 2012 they show up as 8.7% J2a.

Regardless, the Ev13 and J2b2-L283 is accurate and is more or less reflected the same in contemporary studies and the Albanian Bloodlines project.


Also R1a among Albanians of Macedonia is over 13%


I don't know where you're getting this, but I would love to see a source. The Albanian Bloodlines project has R1a showing up in 5.6% of Fyrom Albanians.
 

Thanks Johane Derite :)
If the paper is correct, it partially explains the % of Balkan given to Apulians by 23andme.

“... Although low-resolution haplogroups capture only some of the total variability, regional differences are also identified in other areas of the Peninsula. For instance, South Apulian groups (GS, AP and LE) turned out to be far away from North-Western Apulia (NWA) and located between the Near Eastern and Balkan population clusters, a finding that is strongly suggestive of a Greek influence, especially for the Grecìa Salentina (GS). Conversely, the proximity of the “non-Grecanic” Apulians (AP) to Crete, one of the first areas reached by Neolithic Near Eastern farmers, supports the scenario that the same genetic stock also reached Apulia by Sea.. ..”
 
you need to realise the messapians where a sub-tribe of
The Iapygians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) were an Indo-European people who inhabited Apulia in classical antiquity. They lived in the eponymous region Iapygia and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.
.
Pre-Roman ceramic evidence justifies Strabo's classification of Daunii, Peucetii and Messapii, who were all speakers of the Messapian language. There were twelve tribal proto-statelets among the Peucetii, one of which is represented by modern Altamura.
The Encyclopédie under "Peuceti", distinguishes them from another ancient people, the Peucetioe who were living in Liburnia at the head of the Adriatic, with a reference to Callimachus, as quoted in Pliny (H.N. III.21) placing their country in Pliny's day as part of Illyria[5] but modern ethnography treats them as synonyms.[6]

to conclude the messapii and the others came from northern part of the adriatic .....the liburnian illyrian tribe , famous seafarers who until 700 BC controlled the messapii south italy plus corfu..........they lost both areas to the corinthians who also then settled in durres, butrino in albania and many parts of western sicliy, plus taranto.
.
.
Herodotus distinctly applies the term of Iapygia to the peninsula, and calls the Messapians an Iapygian tribe; though he evidently did not limit it to this portion of Italy, and must have extended it, at all events, to the land of the Peucetians, if not of the Daunians also. (Hdt. 4.99, 7.170.) Aristotle also clearly identifies the Iapygians with the Messapians (Pol. 5.3), though the limits within which he applies the name of Iapygia (Ib. 7.10) cannot be defined. Indeed, the name of the Iapygian promontory (ἡ ἄκρα ἡ Ἰαπυγία), universally given to the headland which formed the extreme point of the peninsula, sufficiently proves that this was considered to belong to Iapygia. Strabo confines the term of Iapygia to the peninsula, and says that it was called by some Iapygia, by others Messapia or Calabria. (Strab. vi. pp. 281, 282.) Appian and Dionysius Periegetes, on the contrary, follow Polybius in applying the name of Iapygia to the Roman Apulia, and the latter expressly says that the Iapygian tribes extended as far as Hyrium on the N. side of Mt. Garganus.
The Greek mythographers, as usual, derived the name from a hero, Iapyx, whom they represented as a son of Lycaon, a descent probably intended to indicate the Pelasgic origin of the Iapygians.
 
If the paper is correct, it partially explains the % of Balkan given to Apulians by 23andme.

“... Although low-resolution haplogroups capture only some of the total variability, regional differences are also identified in other areas of the Peninsula. For instance, South Apulian groups (GS, AP and LE) turned out to be far away from North-Western Apulia (NWA) and located between the Near Eastern and Balkan population clusters, a finding that is strongly suggestive of a Greek influence, especially for the Grecìa Salentina (GS). Conversely, the proximity of the “non-Grecanic” Apulians (AP) to Crete, one of the first areas reached by Neolithic Near Eastern farmers, supports the scenario that the same genetic stock also reached Apulia by Sea.. ..”

Awesome, didn't know about this!

I think there is also ample archaeological evidence that Illyrians did contribute to Messapians. Here is just one case of the Messapian helmet:

HdVuty3.jpg
 
you need to realise the messapians where a sub-tribe of
The Iapygians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) were an Indo-European people who inhabited Apulia in classical antiquity. They lived in the eponymous region Iapygia and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.


Messapian words

Messapian lexical itemProposed cognates
Bréntion (from Messapian bréndon, bréntion) (Brindisi, Italy)Brindisi: "Brin" - "Brinë" ("Horn" in Albanian); "Disi" - "Dashi" ("Ram", "Aries" in Albanian) Swedish brinde ("elk"), Latvian briêdis ("deer"), Lithuanianbriedis, ("elk"), Old Prussian braydis, ("elk"),[3] Thracian Brendike [1] (which was a Thracian toponym located just east of Dikaia) Albanian bri, brî - pl. brirë, brinë ("horn"; "antler") [< late Proto-Albanian *brina < earlier *brena ].[4] The Messapian word is glossed early as "deer", then narrowed in meaning to a deer's head (cf. Strabo caput cervi), then possibly by metonymy to its antlers in early Albanian, and by extension and excrescence, thus modern "horn".
Menzanacf. Albanian mëz - meza ("colt")[5]
penkahehTorp identifies this as the Messapian word for the number "five", from PIE *penkwe-, "five" (Lithuanian penki (five), (Albanian pesë (five)
apa = "from"Alb. Gheg dialect pi (PI < apa) ("from") or pa (PA < apa) ("without"), Greek apó, Sanskrit ápa[6]
bilia = "daughter"Latin filia, Albanian bijë - "bija" ("daughter") older dialect bilë - "bila" ("daughter")[6]
ma = "not"Greek , Sanskrit , Albanian ma, me, mos
 
And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:


Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09
Y HaplogroupMacedoniansAlbaniansOthersTotal
E1b1b1a-M7815.60%28.80%14.30%19.80%
E1b1b1b-M8101.80%00.60%
E1b1b1c1-M342.40%1.80%02%
G-M2013.80%2.70%4.80%3.50%
H-M691.40%1.80%14.30%2.30%
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M17001.80%4.80%0.90%
I1-M2531.90%6.30%03.20%
I2a-P37b27.50%1.80%017.50%
I2b1-M2231.90%1.80%4.80%2%
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f23.30%1.80%02.60%
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M1724.70%2.70%9.50%4.40%
J2a4b-M672.80%2.70%9.50%3.20%
J2b2-M2415.20%13.50%4.80%7.90%
L-M220.50%0%00.30%
N1c-Tat0.50%000.30%
P*(xR1)-92R70.50%04.80%0.60%
R1*-M1730.50%000.30%
R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu14.20%12.60%4.80%13.10%
R1b1-P2511.40%18%23.80%14.30%
T-M701.90%001.20%
TOTAL100.00%99.90%100.20%100.00%
* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations







 
G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
E1b1b = 24%
J2a = 13%
J2b = 6%
J1 = 3%
G2a = 6%
R1b = 16%
R1a = 12%
I = 15%
T(+L) = 4%
other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%
 
And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:







You are sharing statistics from 2006 to counter a later study that corroborates with statistics from 2018's Albanian bloodlines project statistics?

Are people supposed to take you seriously? Either you are a false flagging fake Albanian account, or you are a ottoman sympathizer that wants to
suppress history.

I went through your profile and understood very well that you are a t*roll.

You have a repeated pattern of interjecting into other peoples threads to derail them.

You have nothing to add with outdated 12 year old data that is not corroborated, so kindly leave.
 
G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
E1b1b = 24%
J2a = 13%
J2b = 6%
J1 = 3%
G2a = 6%
R1b = 16%
R1a = 12%
I = 15%
T(+L) = 4%
other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%

You are copy pasting forum comments from 2011 by greek accounts as evidence??

lDDYJFk.png
 
G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b
Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
E1b1b = 24%
J2a = 13%
J2b = 6%
J1 = 3%
G2a = 6%
R1b = 16%
R1a = 12%
I = 15%
T(+L) = 4%
other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%
Can you change your nickname please? Because is ofensive against Albanians.
 
Yes if the mods are watching, this is what tutkun means:
"Stupid, backwards, idiot".

Arnaut is turkish word for Albanian which can be used derogatorily.
So his username speaks for itself..

http://fjalorthi.com/tutkun
 
Messapian words

Messapian lexical itemProposed cognates
Bréntion (from Messapian bréndon, bréntion) (Brindisi, Italy)Brindisi: "Brin" - "Brinë" ("Horn" in Albanian); "Disi" - "Dashi" ("Ram", "Aries" in Albanian) Swedish brinde ("elk"), Latvian briêdis ("deer"), Lithuanianbriedis, ("elk"), Old Prussian braydis, ("elk"),[3] Thracian Brendike [1] (which was a Thracian toponym located just east of Dikaia) Albanian bri, brî - pl. brirë, brinë ("horn"; "antler") [< late Proto-Albanian *brina < earlier *brena ].[4] The Messapian word is glossed early as "deer", then narrowed in meaning to a deer's head (cf. Strabo caput cervi), then possibly by metonymy to its antlers in early Albanian, and by extension and excrescence, thus modern "horn".
Menzanacf. Albanian mëz - meza ("colt")[5]
penkahehTorp identifies this as the Messapian word for the number "five", from PIE *penkwe-, "five" (Lithuanian penki (five), (Albanian pesë (five)
apa = "from"Alb. Gheg dialect pi (PI < apa) ("from") or pa (PA < apa) ("without"), Greek apó, Sanskrit ápa[6]
bilia = "daughter"Latin filia, Albanian bijë - "bija" ("daughter") older dialect bilë - "bila" ("daughter")[6]
ma = "not"Greek , Sanskrit , Albanian ma, me, mos

you still need to recognise these tribes (Daunians, Peucetians ) as part of the messapians .............why do you avoid this , when they are the same race
 
you still need to recognise these tribes (Daunians, Peucetians ) as part of the messapians .............why do you avoid this , when they are the same race

There is no avoiding here. Daunians and peucetians spoke the messapian language so these cognates apply to them too.

And it is well established that Messapians are considered a sub tribe quite distinct. They had seperate archeological cultures by the 7th century BC regardless.

They are also referred to as "especially Illyrian" in texts like this for example:

zFBRVAK.png



This thread is focussing on the Messapians. Is that not allowed..?
 
it was done in purpose so other arnauts will recognize me

Moderators should not allow these insults....there are plenty of ways between Albanians to recognize each other....Tutkun Arnaut is offensive.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Moderators should not allow these insults....there are plenty of ways between Albanians to recognize each other....Tutkun Arnaut is offensive.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Don't respond to him, he was baiting for a reaction.
 
Most Theories and Speculations about the Messapians.
The Messapians
Guerriero%20Messapo.jpg


The Messapians were the inhabitants of the southern part of the lapigia (Puglia), distinguished by the Peuceti (land of Bari) and the Dauni (land of Foggia) and recognized by the name of Salentini.
We do not know where their name derives from. It is thought to mean "people between two seas" because they had settled in the area south of Puglia, between the Adriatic Sea and the Ionian, and because in their name there is the presence of the sound "ap", as also in lapigi and Apuli which means "water".
It is also thought to mean "horse tamers" (Equorum Domitores, as Virgilio defines them); in fact they bred horses.
Ephoto remembers them as a unitary and ethnically and culturally compact population; in part of his writing , the Messapians are defined as descendants of the Cretans, who pushed themselves along the coasts of Salento, they joined the populations already present, thus founding the first cities and bringing habits and customs that distinguished the Salentini from other populations.
According to modern historians, however, the Messapians were of Illyrian lineage, as would be thought by the ethnic, geographical names, glosses and the language of the Messapian inscriptions, found in Puglia.
They would arrive in Otranto around 1000 BC, as the nearest point to Albania, and then they would descend to S. Maria di Leuca and go up to Taranto. This derives from historical testimonies considered valid because the ancient authors speak of some trips thus carried out.
Even Virgil in the Aeneid, referring to the wanderings of Aeneas, refers to a journey with a similar itinerary.
The ancient historians assigned to the Messapians the entire peninsula from Brindisi and Taranto to the head of S. Maria di Leuca, as evidenced by the linguistic findings.
The Messapian language is known to us by a considerable number of public inscriptions, funeral, votive, numismatic, found in Puglia especially in Salento, written in the Messapian alphabet, which is the Greek of Taranto.

It is an Indo-European language that falls within the group of so-called "satem" languages, that is the Central-Eastern Indo-Europeans, presenting an affinity with today's Albanian. However, we do not know much about the Messapian language, or rather we can read it, but we can not understand it because the symbols, similar to those of the Greek alphabet, form words whose meaning is unknown.
Not long ago, on the occasion of the revision of the knowledge about the peoples who, in the centuries before the birth of Rome, have inhabited the Italian peninsula and the Salento in particular, we began to talk about the Messapians or, rather, the "Sphinx Messapica", as it is a mysterious people that scholars are still searching for their secure origins and identity.
"Nobody knows much about the Messapians and what little we know is so small and thin to look that is practically nothing. "These are the words of Oronzo Parlangeli, who devoted a large part of his studies to this mysterious people; hence the comparison with the Sphinx or, daring a little, with the Etruscans.
In fact, it is known that, like the Etruscans, it was a proud people and bearer of its own independent civilization, but when the Romans arrived, they could not bear the impact, so they slowly disappeared.
(in Italian) http://www.aikidoweb.it/public/?Cultura___I_Messapi
 

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