T Haplogroup Caucasus

[Alpenjager]

Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
What do you guys think?

Can you tell us the kit number of Al Husayni?

I don't think remotely possible that T is linked in any way to children of Israel as a whole. perhaps one of his branches who knows. There is one unique confirmed link between Jews of two different branches, you can find it downstream T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a2c-PF4074

[Suleyman]

Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
What do you guys think?

Wow, Hamed very interesting. Nice research work! I think to know the origin of haplogroup T, you must not only study the scientific part but also the (religious) part to know which folks were of haplogroup T in the past.

[Hamed]

The kit number M9153 .Please not that there many more.On the arabic sites,there is quite a bit of members belonging to Al Unzah tribe,Bakr tribe,Rabiah tribe; all belonging to Haplo T. These arab tribes are called Adnani tribes.All offshoots of a man called Adnan the 4th grandson of Ishmael.Arab tribes are great people to study since they lived in their tribal system until this day.They kept their genealogies and rarely mixed with others.

[Sile]

Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
What do you guys think?

If you want to relate Haplogroups with biblical tribes..........then T is part of the Madai ( Medes )
http://shroud-physics.com/2017/09/y-chromosomal-levi/
haplogroup LT Japheth> Madai (Father of the Medes)
.
http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html
.
biblical studies state the Madai are the only Arians/Aryans

[Salento]

As “Entertainment” I read the latest few posts.
Reset + Reality Check.
I’m not an expert of genetics, but even I can tell when some of the assumptions posted are nothing more than Wishful Thinking driven by an Agenda.
Nothing more than Bias. Science, Politics, and Religions all mixed up together.

An example is also in one of the links posted.
The author First try to preserve his reputation, and then he goes on in to more exotic statements.

“ ... All these stories (together with the religious traditions behind them) seem, not merely false, but ridiculously false if our mathematics of genetic inheritance is Darwinian. But everything changes if we use the more sophisticated formulas of analytic number theory sketched above, and in the light of these formulas, the credibility of these stories can be restored .... “

[Sile]

As “Entertainment” I read the latest few posts.
Reset + Reality Check.
I’m not an expert of genetics, but even I can tell when some of the assumptions posted are nothing more than Wishful Thinking driven by an Agenda.
Nothing more than Bias. Science, Politics, and Religions all mixed up together.

An example is also in one of the links posted.
The author First try to preserve his reputation, and then he goes on in to more exotic statements.

“ ... All these stories (together with the religious traditions behind them) seem, not merely false, but ridiculously false if our mathematics of genetic inheritance is Darwinian. But everything changes if we use the more sophisticated formulas of analytic number theory sketched above, and in the light of these formulas, the credibility of these stories can be restored .... “

I agree, all religious texts have a very high percentage of fabrication, lost men with dreams, we still see these people today.

[Alpenjager]

The kit number M9153 .Please not that there many more.On the arabic sites,there is quite a bit of members belonging to Al Unzah tribe,Bakr tribe,Rabiah tribe; all belonging to Haplo T. These arab tribes are called Adnani tribes.All offshoots of a man called Adnan the 4th grandson of Ishmael.Arab tribes are great people to study since they lived in their tribal system until this day.They kept their genealogies and rarely mixed with others.

I found information about a Al Husayni clan from Palestina but I dont know if is the same as the Arabian one. Can you provide me with a link with information?

Al Rabiah tribe is added in the tree, you can find him downstream T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a2b-Y16021 but belongs to a totally different branch. About Bakr tribe is not added because they have not tested further deep and belongs to a possible Viking branch.

I have not added any Unzah sample yet. If do you know any kit number, I will study it.

[Caucasus]

Hamed, I am originally from Azerbaijan Republic as well. It is interesting that your grandfather moved to Iran during Bolshevik revolution.
Russian scholars have researched the historic settlements in Caucasus fairly well. In late 16th century, Shah Abbas settled 32 Azeri tribes, 24 Kurdish tribes in mountainous Garabagh region of Azerbaijan to create a buffer zone against Ottomans. They even provided the names of these tribes. According to Russian scholars, all these Shiite tribes were moved from Khorasan province but I think they were most likely moved from Azerbaijan and Kurdistan provinces.
Furthermore, as part of Russian-Persian peace treaties- Gulustan and Turkmenchay (1813, 1826/28), Azeris, Kurds and Armenians moved to Garabagh as well. But during this phase, however, the majority of these settlers were Armenians who later turned out to be a big headache and ethnically cleansed upper Garabagh of Azeri-Kurdish population in 1990s.
I looked at some of your posts and understood that your grandfathers are also from Azerbaijan Republic. Is that correct? If so, there is a good probability that they were also from Garabagh settling in Baku since it was an industrial city.

[Hamed]

Very Interesting.It certaintly explaines many things for me.
Theres another factor of haplogroup T in the Caucasus.
In the 7th century AD an arab general by the name of Abd-Rahman ibn Rabiah invaded the caucasus with many men of his tribe(Rabiah Tribe).He was sent by the Khalifa of his time.He conquered South-Caucasus and went up as far as Daghestan.
His descendants and tribes descendants stayed there and even ruled there.
There is also a big arab tribe who ruled Armenia (back then what was called Armenia was a huge part of the caucasus) called Banu Shayban.
Banu shayban and Banu Rabiah are an offshoot of Bani Bakr bin Wail.They are Adnanites(direct descendants of Adnaan....Adnaan is a grands0n of Ishmaeil son of Abraham.
If you go to arab sites for y dna research(you must know arabic) you will clearly see many people of Banu Rabiah and other offshoots of Shaybanis and even smaller tribes descendants of Bakr bin Wael are all haplogroup T.
This might also point out some of the origins of haplogroup T in the caucasus.For me this theory and yours makes alot of sense. I and my brothers look like arab men from the desert.Alot of the men from the caucasus are of fair complexion.

[Caucasus]

Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands. Because of Caucasus's proximity to Iran, their strong historical ties thought such a long period of time, it comes as no surprise to see relative prevalence of T in Caucasus.
A few villages in Mil-Mughan area of Azerbaijan which may have been established by Arabs when they invaded Caucasus(if I am not mistaken there is a village called Arablar in Kurdemir district). But I have a strong hunch they would belong to J rather than T.

[Alpenjager]

Very Interesting.It certaintly explaines many things for me.
Theres another factor of haplogroup T in the Caucasus.
In the 7th century AD an arab general by the name of Abd-Rahman ibn Rabiah invaded the caucasus with many men of his tribe(Rabiah Tribe).He was sent by the Khalifa of his time.He conquered South-Caucasus and went up as far as Daghestan.
His descendants and tribes descendants stayed there and even ruled there.
There is also a big arab tribe who ruled Armenia (back then what was called Armenia was a huge part of the caucasus) called Banu Shayban.
Banu shayban and Banu Rabiah are an offshoot of Bani Bakr bin Wail.They are Adnanites(direct descendants of Adnaan....Adnaan is a grands0n of Ishmaeil son of Abraham.
If you go to arab sites for y dna research(you must know arabic) you will clearly see many people of Banu Rabiah and other offshoots of Shaybanis and even smaller tribes descendants of Bakr bin Wael are all haplogroup T.
This might also point out some of the origins of haplogroup T in the caucasus.For me this theory and yours makes alot of sense. I and my brothers look like arab men from the desert.Alot of the men from the caucasus are of fair complexion.

There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.

[Alpenjager]

Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands. Because of Caucasus's proximity to Iran, strong historical ties thought such a long period of time, it comes as no surprise to see relative prevalence of T in Caucasus.
A few villages in Mil-Mughan area of Azerbaijan which may have been established by Arabs when they invaded Caucasus(if I am not mistaken there is a village called Arablar in Kurdemir district). But I have a strong hunch they would belong to J rather than T.

Actually, there is not found any basally splitted branch in Iran. So, This is rather unlikely.

Zoroastrians and Bakhtiaris belong to different T lineages and are very specific on the tree.

[Sile]

Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands.

there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
2 in Germany and
2 in Bulgaria.....
then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
.
all these are ancient sample
.
.
I have not seen a Elamite nor a Lurs that are ancient .............seen 15% of Kurds that have T .....like the zaza people who originated in Azeri lands and then there are 6% yazidi people
.
IMO I would say T split from haplogroup LT between the Caspian and Aral seas..........also due to T2-PH110 in bhutan which has same split date as T
.
Alpen IIRC states between the Black and Caspian seas
.
whatever the case , T originates north of the Zargos mountains..........you might find the truth before me

[Caucasus]

Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?

[Alpenjager]

Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?

As pointed by Sile, the most likely origin of T should be somewhere between Wallachian/Danubian Plains in western Black Sea and Caspian Sea, at most pushing a bit further west (taking account L lineage) and further east (taking account Himalaya's T2 off shot) the possible extremes.

[Caucasus]

Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.

[Sile]

Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.

the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........

the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to

[Suleyman]

there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
2 in Germany and
2 in Bulgaria.....
then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
.
all these are ancient sample
.
.
I have not seen a Elamite nor a Lurs that are ancient .............seen 15% of Kurds that have T .....like the zaza people who originated in Azeri lands and then there are 6% yazidi people
.
IMO I would say T split from haplogroup LT between the Caspian and Aral seas..........also due to T2-PH110 in bhutan which has same split date as T
.
Alpen IIRC states between the Black and Caspian seas
.
whatever the case , T originates north of the Zargos mountains..........you might find the truth before me

Sile, about the ancient sample, can you say how old a sample has to be ... to be ancient?

[Alpenjager]

the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........

the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to

In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.

[Hamed]

There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.

NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.

[Sile]

In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.

Armenians state that they originate from a mix of 2 ancient peoples .....the Hurrian and the Nairi ...........the Nairi from what I gather come from modern Gilan province on the Caspian sea, I think this is azeri lands ........Sason/Sasun is in Kurdish East-Turkey IIRC

[Alpenjager]

NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.

I will appreciate if you post Kit numbers when talking about Tribes found in DNA project. This will makes their identification easier.

What is clear here is that the Rabiah T samples and Bakr T samples are completly unrelated.

[Caucasus]

Alpenjager, can you kindly provide a little more info about CTS6507 in terms of its prevalence in different parts of the world or anything else you wanted to share?
Thanks

[Caucasus]

...........