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Thread: New map of average male body height in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa

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    Sorry, for the British big variations of statures, I did not speak only of region but more precisley of social occupational classes; there it reached great oppositions compared to other European country of the time - curiously the lower occupation was the convicts, if convict is a serious "occupation"...
    Have good dreams all of you, pacific forumers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wonder if the relative positioning would be the same today, even if everyone is taller.
    Yes, I believe that even today the part of Italy with the taller average height is the north-east, with Veneto, Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia in the lead. Probably the trends are still, more or less, the same today. It is also true that the Italian demography has changed a lot over the last 100 years. Today, in this type of measurements many descendants of migrants from other parts of Italy would be also included. So 140 years later it is difficult to get full objective data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My impression is that the average male height in most of Europe in the 19th century was about 5'7".
    5'5'' most likely?

    Average height of British men in the last centuries.

    "For British men, the average height at age 21 rose from 167.05 cm (5ft 5in) in 1871-75 to 177.37cm (5ft 10in) in 1971-75."


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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, I believe that even today the part of Italy with the taller average height is the north-east, with Veneto, Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia in the lead. Probably the trends are still, more or less, the same today. It is also true that the Italian demography has changed a lot over the last 100 years. Today, in this type of measurements many descendants of migrants from other parts of Italy would be also included. So 140 years later it is difficult to get full objective data.
    I believe Southern Italy has received a bigger boost than North in general. I have not noticed any height differences among Italians in North, Calabria, Catania, and Bari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I believe Southern Italy has received a bigger boost than North in general. I have not noticed any height differences among Italians in North, Calabria, Catania, and Bari.
    As I have not noticed differences in height among Southern Italians, Greeks and Albanians when I was there. But here we need reliable sources, not what people notice. What people notice is quite irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I believe Southern Italy has received a bigger boost than North in general. I have not noticed any height differences among Italians in North, Calabria, Catania, and Bari.
    Southern Italians resemble South Albanians in height. I would say South Albanians are an inch taller than South Italians I have seen. I have seen them in NYC and they originated from Salerno, Naples region. I worked once in an Italian club of Neapolitan's in Brooklyn NY. The club had 800 members more or less.So I have seen them in group. Their Kids of South Italians are in average an Inch taller than their parents, but not much. So the theory that nutrition makes the big difference at least among Albanians born in USA, and South Italians born in USA, its not true. The nutrition is not to be ignored but in this two groups does not seem to make big difference. Greeks on the other hand are taller than both South Albanians and South Italians, but shorter than Kosovans. I don't think Slavic genes make the difference.

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    New map of average male body height in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Southern Italians resemble South Albanians in height. I would say South Albanians are an inch taller than South Italians I have seen. I have seen them in NYC and they originated from Salerno, Naples region. I worked once in an Italian club of Neapolitan's in Brooklyn NY. The club had 800 members more or less.So I have seen them in group. Their Kids of South Italians are in average an Inch taller than their parents, but not much. So the theory that nutrition makes the big difference at least among Albanians born in USA, and South Italians born in USA, its not true. The nutrition is not to be ignored but in this two groups does not seem to make big difference. Greeks on the other hand are taller than both South Albanians and South Italians, but shorter than Kosovans. I don't think Slavic genes make the difference.
    Granted that diet affect height, a big percentage of the Italians you saw in New York are Mixed,
    and even more are the kids.
    I wouldn’t include them as subjects for height averages.
    I should probably comment on the other things you said about Italians, and Albanians.
    I’m going to let it go.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    As I have not noticed differences in height among Southern Italians, Greeks and Albanians when I was there. But here we need reliable sources, not what people notice. What people notice is quite irrelevant.
    So unless I come here with an attachment of a reliable source I should not post at all or show interest on a certain topic hoping that someone might clear it up for me with a "reliable source"?

    So far these reliable sources seem to contradict each other, where 1 says that average height in Montenegro is 178cm and another says 183cm, not to mention the one with 185,6cm average from specific high schools. Then you have those "reliable sources" that measure 100 people from some hospital and announce it as the country's average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Southern Italians resemble South Albanians in height. I would say South Albanians are an inch taller than South Italians I have seen. I have seen them in NYC and they originated from Salerno, Naples region. I worked once in an Italian club of Neapolitan's in Brooklyn NY. The club had 800 members more or less.So I have seen them in group. Their Kids of South Italians are in average an Inch taller than their parents, but not much. So the theory that nutrition makes the big difference at least among Albanians born in USA, and South Italians born in USA, its not true. The nutrition is not to be ignored but in this two groups does not seem to make big difference. Greeks on the other hand are taller than both South Albanians and South Italians, but shorter than Kosovans. I don't think Slavic genes make the difference.

    There's no South - North difference, rather a highland - lowland region difference but we don't have such statistics and I think we'll never have. The Southwestern region of Laberia has a higher average than all the other South Albanians, Central Albanians, and some North Albanian areas like Mati, Mirdita, Dibra, or Kruja.

    Then why should the average of Fieri, Lushnja, and parts of Kavaja affect the average height of Albanians if they're Aromanians? Same goes to many villages in Korca and Devolli with their Aromanian population known to be shorter and darker than the Albanians. So you probably see a couple of them and attribute it to the whole country.

    You can't speak so confidently about Greece as Greece is vast and with huge differences in appearance too. You could see hundreds of Peloponessians and come to the conclusion that Greeks are quite tall but you completely ignore people from the Aegean islands. Go to Thessaloniki in Makedonia (North Greece) and notice how people are surprisingly short and most of the tall ones are Serbian students.

    Are you even Albanian by the way? Your username indicates you're more likely a Serbian ***** because the meaning is offensive.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What is the source for Romania? I do not think the average height of the Romanians males is 1.65m !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I noticed that there was no good map covering all countries with serious data, so I made one.

    This map was made based on the combined data from Wikipedia, Worlddata.info, a study by Grasgruber et al. (2016) (for the Middle East and North Africa), Diggita (for Italian regions) and Destatis (for German states). Other anthropological studies not published online were used for Dutch, French and Spanish regions.

    The color on the map for Romania is for (165-167.5 cm)? This is far to be true! I am 192cm tall and then I should be a Goliath? I'm not! When I'm on a bus with other 10-15 Romanian men there is one that looks at me peer-to-peer.

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    As the diet changes to feature more meat, the height and weight increases. That happened in Greece and the Balkans in general. I come from tall stock with the exception of my father who is 5'3" He was born in 1922, the year of the great exchange of population between Greece and Turkey so food was scarce. I had a terrible time with my digestive system when I was less than 1 yr old. I could not keep my mother's milk down or any other kind of milk. I was very very skinny and they thought I was going to die. They finally tried donkey's milk and I could keep that down. From then on I started putting on weight. My son had the same problem but nowadays there is so many different kinds of formulas and baby foods so he was in no danger of dying.

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    I work in a high school in Northern Spain. I'm 37 y.o. and 1.75m. Almost all male students(17, 18 or 19 y.o.) exceed me in 5, 10 or even 15 centimeters. I think the average height of Young Spaniards is for sure more than 1.80. The increase has been huge in the last decade. Sometimes I sometimes feel like a midget in my workplace. But older generations are shorter by far. Spaniards over 50 years old average only 1.70. I think what happened in Netherlands after the second world war is happening now in Spain due to the improvment of the standard of living and feeding. I’m sorry but a high stature is not dued to germanic genes but nutrition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I work in a high school in Northern Spain. I'm 37 y.o. and 1.75m. Almost all male students(17, 18 or 19 y.o.) exceed me in 5, 10 or even 15 centimeters. I think the average height of Young Spaniards is for sure more than 1.80. The increase has been huge in the last decade. Sometimes I sometimes feel like a midget in my workplace. But older generations are shorter by far. Spaniards over 50 years old average only 1.70. I think what happened in Netherlands after the second world war is happening now in Spain due to the improvment of the standard of living and feeding. I’m sorry but a high stature is not dued to germanic genes but nutrition.
    Same phenomenon is observed in China, when new generation is much taller than their parents. Head height toller!
    My pet theory is that the last generation or two the height jump wasn't due much to increased nutrients, but increased hormones and antibiotic use in production of farm animals and increased this cheap/fast grown meat consumption wealthier countries.
    I will be proven wrong or right with next datasets from rich countries, which embrace the new healthy eating habits and reduce use of hormones and antibiotics in food production. Their next generation of people should be shorter than their parents, if I'm right.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Let's look a little, to the peaks.
    Robert Bobroczky from Romania is 2.32 m tall from the age of 16! I think he is the tallest teenager in Europe, if not in the world.
    His father is a former basketball player, 2.18 m tall, and his mother 1.86 m. From the age of 8 it was 1.88 m tall, and by the age of 12 he reached a height of 2.18 m surpassing his father. He has been the subject of medical studies from the early years, but doctors have determined that his height is natural as a result of genetics and not a hormonal disease.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-SnFtHrHjk
    Another Romanian giant is well-known former basketball player, Gheorghe Muresan, also 2.32 m tall, but due to a pituitary gland disorder.



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    the shorter people have workplace advantage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Numbers for northern albanians are not right.

    Average height for Prishtina(northern albanians) is 179.52 cm.
    And that is the number for urban populations. If you start measuring the mountaineers you will get an even higher number some places.

    So for better accuracy i would suggest that you use some other sources for the albanian lands. Because the whole balkan region comes out a bit unatural on this map, with that lighter colored gap in kosova and albania, while all surrounding areas are darker. I would imagine i worked more like a set of clines, with lowlanders being on average shorter, while highlanders like Hercegovinians, montenegrins and gheg albanians are taller on average.

    These are just some suggestions. If you agree, and if you find the time, it would be great to see it get corrected somehow.
    It isnt really a mistake , it just shows it as 177 - 180 cm instead of the specific height , but it is most likely somewhere around there, in some areas 177 in others 1.80 .. Montenegro Albos probably are the tallest and it could get higher there and inmsome other areas ... but all in all the map is accurate and 1.80 isnt short for European standards. Also shows the north as taller than the south. Same way when Coon studied Albanians. We are diverse in height. Mirdita in the north and some other areas of the South have a lot of Alpines or reduced Cromagnoids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    It isnt really a mistake , it just shows it as 177 - 180 cm instead of the specific height , but it is most likely somewhere around there, in some areas 177 in others 1.80 .. Montenegro Albos probably are the tallest and it could get higher there and inmsome other areas ... but all in all the map is accurate and 1.80 isnt short for European standards. Also shows the north as taller than the south. Same way when Coon studied Albanians. We are diverse in height. Mirdita in the north and some other areas of the South have a lot of Alpines or reduced Cromagnoids.
    It was a mistake. It was corrected. Northern alb and kosova were the same color as southern albania. It was only corrected after i pointed towards a study with more individuals which showed an average height of 179cm in the north.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To get back to the science of it, instead of male boasting rights, the latest paper finds little to no selection for it, so I guess we're back to diet and chance.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To get back to the science of it, instead of male boasting rights, the latest paper finds little to no selection for it, so I guess we're back to diet and chance.
    Diet plays a big role. I think pretty soon we will see smaller and smaller differences in height between nations in Europe.

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    Well, I certainly hope that doesn't mean Southern Europeans are going to start guzzling gallons of milk and tons of beef, both loaded with fat and hormones. Humans don't need to consume so much protein and animal fat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Diet plays a big role. I think pretty soon we will see smaller and smaller differences in height between nations in Europe.
    I think its genetics! I have seen South Albanians born and raised in USA, no noticeable difference in height from people from South Albania.

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    Obviously data trumps anecdote, but I'm convinced Northern England and Scotland have much taller people than this.

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    New map of average male body height in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa

    Interesting:

    In 67 ad, the minimum requirement for a Legionnaire of the Legio Italica was 1.77 m. - 5’8” (considerable height for the time) and born in the Italic Peninsula

    in Italian
    https://www.capitolivm.it/esercito-r...ioni-romane-2/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Interesting:

    In 67 ad, the minimum requirement for a Legionnaire of the Legio Italica was 1.77 m. - 5’8” (considerable height for the time) and born in the Italic Peninsula

    in Italian
    https://www.capitolivm.it/esercito-r...ioni-romane-2/
    By contrast, the height requirement for the British Army in World War I was 5'3", but so many died that they lowered it to 5'. They were called the bantams.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantam_(military)

    I know the lower classes had terrible diets throughout the Victorian Era, but that's really pretty short.

    I remember people on the old dna-forums and here as well trying to convince me that the Roman legionnaires ate only puls and therefore must have been very puny. I couldn't convince them that that seemed to me impossible given how many battles they won and how much land they conquered. Strategy and discipline can take you only so far.

    Then, in the last couple of years studies have come out showing that the legions had cattle, pigs, sheep, set up fish ponds, and grew some of their own food. It was mainly the wheat and wine which were shipped in, along with garum, which they loved. Of course, when on the march they carried only flour to make bread, salt pork, and wine.

    Not to say that the Gauls and Germani weren't somewhat larger. It just goes to show that diet did indeed make a difference over the millennia. Still, the British aren't particularly tall even now. I've been re-watching Game of Thrones, and a lot of the male actors are pretty short, starting with Kit Harington, who looks to be about 5'5"-5'7". Not that I can imagine any woman complaining. :) A lot of others as well, such as the actors playing Ramsay Bolton, Theon Greyjoy, Littlefinger, Joffrey, even Richard Madden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Interesting:

    In 67 ad, the minimum requirement for a Legionnaire of the Legio Italica was 1.77 m. - 5’8” (considerable height for the time) and born in the Italic Peninsula

    in Italian
    https://www.capitolivm.it/esercito-r...ioni-romane-2/
    That sounds extraordinarily high for the time, and 1.77m is almost 5'10", not 5'8". 5.8 feet is different to 5'8". I'm sceptical - I doubt the average Germanic warrior was even that tall on average.

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