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Thread: proper Indus Valley Civilization DNA to come

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think rather than speaking of an Indo-European "warrior culture", it's perhaps a Bronze Age warrior culture, present both in Europe and in the Near East.

    I absolutely don't think it's some "genetic" thing when Semites show many of the hallmarks of this kind of culture, including taking over prior agricultural societies.

    Increasingly, I'm also being persuaded that in addition to things like metallurgy and kurgans and the wheel filtering onto the steppe from over the Caucasus and "Old Europe", that was also the case with this heightened and increased stratification of society and the development of a separate "warrior" class. All of this is tied, I think, to bronze weapons, which required great wealth to obtain, but which gave a decided advantage in warfare.

    The papers documenting all this are numerous and have been posted here. I'm off, so I won't be able to post all the citations.
    no, I don't think warrior culture is something genetic
    it is a matter of circumstances and personality of the leader
    there are instances of warrior rulers and peaceful rulers under the same dynasty

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    after the Aryan invasion there were 2 populations in India : ANI and ASI
    mixture of ANI and ASI came later, during the iron age
    anybody knows what happened and how this last mixture came about?
    I'd guess that came with the appearance of some big dominant kingdoms around the time of Buddha and later the huge empires in India after the 5th/4th century BC, like Nanda, Maurya, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I'd guess that came with the appearance of some big dominant kingdoms around the time of Buddha and later the huge empires in India after the 5th/4th century BC, like Nanda, Maurya, etc.
    yes, indeed
    I know very little about these kingdoms and empires

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Yeah, Andronovo had "measurably" lighter individuals compared tp Yamnaya.

    In theory, light blonde hair correlates with Ancient North Eurasian "ANE" ancestry, the first individual who had alleles for light hair was an ANE from Siberia, the Scandinavian HG were also light haired, and they had ANE, so the trail leads to them I guess, Yamnaya should have had lighter haired individuals based on this principle.

    I don't have any conspiracies, I don't know.

    Quoting David Reich from his book:

    "The fusion of these highly different populations into today’s West Eurasians is vividly evident in what might be considered the classic northern European look: blue eyes, light skin, and blond hair. Analysis of ancient DNA data shows that western European hunter-gatherers around eight thousand years ago had blue eyes but dark skin and dark hair, a combination that is rare today. The first farmers of Europe mostly had light skin but dark hair and brown eyes—thus light skin in Europe largely owes its origins to migrating farmers. The earliest known example of the classic European blond hair mutation is in an Ancient North Eurasian from the Lake Baikal region of eastern Siberia from seventeen thousand years ago. The hundreds of millions of copies of this mutation in central and western Europe today likely derive from a massive migration into the region of people bearing Ancient North Eurasian ancestry, an event that is related in the next chapter."

    So maybe David Reich thinks Steppe pastoralists spread this trait in Europe and elsewhere?
    I have read this so many times in the last few years, but I saw no explanation as to this really big gap: why isn't blonde hair found in any non-European-admixed Native American population even if they harbored some of the highest % of ANE among ancient populations? Would their ~60% ENA-related ancestry have simply overpowered the genes for lighter hair, so that they hardly ever are/were expressed? Ditto for som ANE-heavy North Siberian populations, like Yeniseians, most of whom AFAIK have very low or nonexistent % of blondism. Or can we simply assume that just a small subset of ANE people developed this mutation and made it rise to a frequency high enough to spread easily to other populations with whom they mixed?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I have read this so many times in the last few years, but I saw no explanation as to this really big gap: why isn't blonde hair found in any non-European-admixed Native American population even if they harbored some of the highest % of ANE among ancient populations? Would their ~60% ENA-related ancestry have simply overpowered the genes for lighter hair, so that they hardly ever are/were expressed? Ditto for som ANE-heavy North Siberian populations, like Yeniseians, most of whom AFAIK have very low or nonexistent % of blondism. Or can we simply assume that just a small subset of ANE people developed this mutation and made it rise to a frequency high enough to spread easily to other populations with whom they mixed?
    Yeah i thought about that too multiple times. Their could be multiples reasons, 1) Amerindians are a mix of ANE mal'ta related but also eastern asian, who are one of the strongest black haired people in the world. 2) ANE in Eastern Europe could be related from a Western Siberian ANE-Afontova Gora related population that would have a founder effect or some Kostenki-Sunghir ancestry wich light hairs could have originated, that the ANE-Amerindian/Eastern Siberian would not have had. 3) ANE in Eastern Europe came with Q1a2 and therefore if light hairs originate in them, an intensive selection would occur in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia and nowhere else wich explain the modern distribution of light hairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the first farmers in Europe could just work the light, fertile soils
    where there was enough fish to catch, they were unable to outcompete the HG
    but when the light fertile soils became scarce there was a lot of tribal warfare and cruelty amongst late LBK farmers
    the peaceful farmer is a myth indeed
    it is the same everywhere
    whenever there is scarcity or overpopulation conflicts and violence escalate
    but in the end, people get organised for war
    it is not about resources any more, it is about power
    that is already clear in the wars between the Mesopotamian city states
    and the king-warlords, they had the support from religion, they had 'divine powers'
    the kings were burried along with servants and female concubines killed to join the king in his last yourney
    ... and everybody forgets that all those arriving populations happened after the 5.9 kiloyear event that not only created the sahara desert, but really sent europe temperatures dropping heavily. If the LIA (little Ige age) of the 17th/18th century is any indication then it could really be rough to farmers in europe. they truly could just have died out and the arriving of new populations a couple centuries later did not find many still "standing".
    So arriving populations can really just have looked around and say, where is everyone? ;)

    Off course we need to learn much more to learn what happened. But its not a coincidence that the events are marked by 5.9 Kiloyear and the end of bronze age cultures such as Bell beakers shortly after 4.2 kiloyear event.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I have read this so many times in the last few years, but I saw no explanation as to this really big gap: why isn't blonde hair found in any non-European-admixed Native American population even if they harbored some of the highest % of ANE among ancient populations? Would their ~60% ENA-related ancestry have simply overpowered the genes for lighter hair, so that they hardly ever are/were expressed? Ditto for som ANE-heavy North Siberian populations, like Yeniseians, most of whom AFAIK have very low or nonexistent % of blondism. Or can we simply assume that just a small subset of ANE people developed this mutation and made it rise to a frequency high enough to spread easily to other populations with whom they mixed?
    David Reich in his new book says that Native Americans are 1/3 ANE and 2/3 East Asian.
    But the same tought had come up with me.
    Somehow the ancestors of the Native Americans seem to have lost that blonde hair gene.
    How did that happen? I can't think of any natural cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    David Reich in his new book says that Native Americans are 1/3 ANE and 2/3 East Asian.
    But the same tought had come up with me.
    Somehow the ancestors of the Native Americans seem to have lost that blonde hair gene.
    How did that happen? I can't think of any natural cause.
    Halfway kidding here but I wouldn't want to have had blonde hair in a culture where scalps are treasured.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    David Reich in his new book says that Native Americans are 1/3 ANE and 2/3 East Asian.
    But the same tought had come up with me.
    Somehow the ancestors of the Native Americans seem to have lost that blonde hair gene.
    How did that happen? I can't think of any natural cause.
    That's why there's more to find out. Two recessive mutations would have to appear in someone.

    One mutation in one ancient sample might have been a one off. Plus, pigmentation is multi-genetic. Without the other de-pigmentation snps I'm highly skeptical that ancient person would have had actual blonde hair.

    I think this is one part of his book where Reich was pretty sloppy, probably because he doesn't care very much about it, and so condensed the evidence too much. As someone else mentioned, the SHG had depigmentation snps for skin too, and they have to be considered European. Unless, perhaps, they have some sort of evidence that it came from the Near East all the way to Northeastern Europe, I don't think what he said was accurate.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We didn't have widespread blond/light hair, light skin, and light eye genotype/phenotype until Late/Middle Bronze age. This genotype appears to originate in CWC type people, the first of which we see in Ukraine Eneolithic. Before then we didn't have this genotype and phenotypes that came close to this "North Euro" complexion (e.g. Samara HG in 5600BC) were much more rare because the allele frequencies don't seem to have risen to high enough levels by this time.

    It shouldn't be a surprise that any population older than 2000BC outside of NE Europe/steppe lacks blonde hair or a combination of light features. And if I remember correctly Native Americans are descended from MA-1 specifically, and not AG 3. Perhaps these alleles aren't present in the ANE that is ancestral to Native Americans. I dunno.

    How exactly these alleles concentrated on the steppe and in North East Europe is another question that we may never know the precise answer to. There are many potential mechanisms.

    Biochemically speaking they are clear examples of positive (directional) selection, but I have trouble believing that these light features themselves would have added enough of an advantage to be positively selected for on their own, especially in such a short time frame. This was very quick. We had very infrequent light features, then all of a sudden the entire steppe and NE Europe resembled a modern Danish population.

    Were women without light features really having obstructions to labor from Rickets and osteomalacia? Perhaps, but I don't think it was the light features alone that prevented it entirely

    I think that Lactase Persistence in combination with light features was the thing that was being selected for in these populations. Light features alone would help vitamin D absorption from the sun, but if you add the ability to metabolize Lactose, you're then able to get vitamin D through your intestines as well. It must have resulted in a synergistic effect that significantly raised the fitness of these populations.

    Right when you see the first widespread appearance Light hair/eye/skin phenotypes in the middle bronze age they also come along with LCT. You don't get one without the other, aside from outlying examples, and even when you look at the modern LCT distribution it's still very clearly concentrated in the most light featured populations on the planet, who are also most closely related to these CWC types where the genotype appears to have first been selected for.

    Yeah. I'll go with that. Come at me bros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yeah i thought about that too multiple times. Their could be multiples reasons, 1) Amerindians are a mix of ANE mal'ta related but also eastern asian, who are one of the strongest black haired people in the world. 2) ANE in Eastern Europe could be related from a Western Siberian ANE-Afontova Gora related population that would have a founder effect or some Kostenki-Sunghir ancestry wich light hairs could have originated, that the ANE-Amerindian/Eastern Siberian would not have had. 3) ANE in Eastern Europe came with Q1a2 and therefore if light hairs originate in them, an intensive selection would occur in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia and nowhere else wich explain the modern distribution of light hairs.
    Interesting hypotheses, I think the explanation must be something close to one or a combination of some of them. That said, are we really sure that ANE in Eastern Europe came with Q1a2 alone? I'd at least suspect that R1a had something to do with ANE introgression into EHG, especially considering that there was also more WHG-associated haplogroups (mainly I and some R1b) among the EHG accounting for the WHG-related part of EHG. Of course that's just a speculation of mine. As you also said in your comment, my best guess is that light hair was a relatively late regional innovation (probably in West Siberia or the Urals) and wasn't a common ancient feature in ANE since its earliest existence, especially because ANE admixture into Pre-Native Americans was probably very old, before ~20-22k ybp, considering the recent evidences of a long period of isolation in a "Beringian refuge", between the ANE+ENA admixture and the ultimate colonization of America.

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    I will never understand why the majority of blondes went to the north of Europe, will it not be rather that there is something in the north of Europe that increases the frequency of being blond in the human being? Maybe the weather? and the inclination of the solar rays?


    Here in the south of the south there are blond people, blue eyes, white as milk, but the frequency is totally different to the north, because the greater frequency of dark skinned people to the south? Maybe the weather? and the inclination of the solar rays?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    We didn't have widespread blond/light hair, light skin, and light eye genotype/phenotype until Late/Middle Bronze age. This genotype appears to originate in CWC type people, the first of which we see in Ukraine Eneolithic. Before then we didn't have this genotype and phenotypes that came close to this "North Euro" complexion (e.g. Samara HG in 5600BC) were much more rare because the allele frequencies don't seem to have risen to high enough levels by this time.

    It shouldn't be a surprise that any population older than 2000BC outside of NE Europe/steppe lacks blonde hair or a combination of light features. And if I remember correctly Native Americans are descended from MA-1 specifically, and not AG 3. Perhaps these alleles aren't present in the ANE that is ancestral to Native Americans. I dunno.

    How exactly these alleles concentrated on the steppe and in North East Europe is another question that we may never know the precise answer to. There are many potential mechanisms.

    Biochemically speaking they are clear examples of positive (directional) selection, but I have trouble believing that these light features themselves would have added enough of an advantage to be positively selected for on their own, especially in such a short time frame. This was very quick. We had very infrequent light features, then all of a sudden the entire steppe and NE Europe resembled a modern Danish population.

    Were women without light features really having obstructions to labor from Rickets and osteomalacia? Perhaps, but I don't think it was the light features alone that prevented it entirely

    I think that Lactase Persistence in combination with light features was the thing that was being selected for in these populations. Light features alone would help vitamin D absorption from the sun, but if you add the ability to metabolize Lactose, you're then able to get vitamin D through your intestines as well. It must have resulted in a synergistic effect that significantly raised the fitness of these populations.

    Right when you see the first widespread appearance Light hair/eye/skin phenotypes in the middle bronze age they also come along with LCT. You don't get one without the other, aside from outlying examples, and even when you look at the modern LCT distribution it's still very clearly concentrated in the most light featured populations on the planet, who are also most closely related to these CWC types where the genotype appears to have first been selected for.

    Yeah. I'll go with that. Come at me bros.
    i would have to look up info about blonde hairs but light skin was already fixated in SHG so i guess the selection process is older. they also carried this allele here i believe(copy paste from wiki)

    • SLC45A2

    Solute carrier family 45 member 2 (SLC45A2 or MATP) aids in the transport and processing of tyrosine, a precursor to melanin. It has also been shown to be one of the significant components of the skin color of modern Europeans through its Phe374Leu (rs16891982[55]) allele that has been directly correlated with skin color variation in mixed-race populations.[41][52] This variation is ubiquitous in European populations but extremely rare elsewhere and shows strong signs of selection.[53][54][56]



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Interesting hypotheses, I think the explanation must be something close to one or a combination of some of them. That said, are we really sure that ANE in Eastern Europe came with Q1a2 alone? I'd at least suspect that R1a had something to do with ANE introgression into EHG, especially considering that there was also more WHG-associated haplogroups (mainly I and some R1b) among the EHG accounting for the WHG-related part of EHG. Of course that's just a speculation of mine. As you also said in your comment, my best guess is that light hair was a relatively late regional innovation (probably in West Siberia or the Urals) and wasn't a common ancient feature in ANE since its earliest existence, especially because ANE admixture into Pre-Native Americans was probably very old, before ~20-22k ybp, considering the recent evidences of a long period of isolation in a "Beringian refuge", between the ANE+ENA admixture and the ultimate colonization of America.
    I remember have seen here the user Firehaired say that one of the Kostenki individual could have had some genes for proto-redhairs something like that, the same with the Afontova Gora 3 individual could have had some genes with proto-blonde hair. For ANE coming with Q1a2 i have to say that i'm not really sure of anything, Q1a2 seems very related with R1b in mesolithic eastern europe, but Q1a2 is typically siberian given that this is the principal lineage of native americans. R1a is found in neolithic baikal and seems pretty much siberian / eastern european too in context of pre-neolithic. EHG is part ANE but R1b in mesolithic latvia and balkans are mostly WHG with some EHG with a CHG transition in early neolithic wich is a fusion of EHG and something Iran_Neolithic wich have ANE... if i recall ? The only point that i can think of is that, Western Siberian and Central Asian ANE populations in pre-neolithic had an intense relationship with each others and influence genetically a lot of peripheral populations from Eastern Europe, Iran to Caucasus. There is also a great possibility that light hairs and light features in general evolved regionally in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia in a Kostenki-Mal'ta related population before expanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    We didn't have widespread blond/light hair, light skin, and light eye genotype/phenotype until Late/Middle Bronze age. This genotype appears to originate in CWC type people, the first of which we see in Ukraine Eneolithic. Before then we didn't have this genotype and phenotypes that came close to this "North Euro" complexion (e.g. Samara HG in 5600BC) were much more rare because the allele frequencies don't seem to have risen to high enough levels by this time.

    It shouldn't be a surprise that any population older than 2000BC outside of NE Europe/steppe lacks blonde hair or a combination of light features. And if I remember correctly Native Americans are descended from MA-1 specifically, and not AG 3. Perhaps these alleles aren't present in the ANE that is ancestral to Native Americans. I dunno.

    How exactly these alleles concentrated on the steppe and in North East Europe is another question that we may never know the precise answer to. There are many potential mechanisms.

    Biochemically speaking they are clear examples of positive (directional) selection, but I have trouble believing that these light features themselves would have added enough of an advantage to be positively selected for on their own, especially in such a short time frame. This was very quick. We had very infrequent light features, then all of a sudden the entire steppe and NE Europe resembled a modern Danish population.

    Were women without light features really having obstructions to labor from Rickets and osteomalacia? Perhaps, but I don't think it was the light features alone that prevented it entirely

    I think that Lactase Persistence in combination with light features was the thing that was being selected for in these populations. Light features alone would help vitamin D absorption from the sun, but if you add the ability to metabolize Lactose, you're then able to get vitamin D through your intestines as well. It must have resulted in a synergistic effect that significantly raised the fitness of these populations.

    Right when you see the first widespread appearance Light hair/eye/skin phenotypes in the middle bronze age they also come along with LCT. You don't get one without the other, aside from outlying examples, and even when you look at the modern LCT distribution it's still very clearly concentrated in the most light featured populations on the planet, who are also most closely related to these CWC types where the genotype appears to have first been selected for.

    Yeah. I'll go with that. Come at me bros.
    What date is that Corded Ware sample, Holderlin? Is it before these?



    Also, what are the dates of the GAC samples? They're really fair if Genetiker is correct, and I've seen speculation that the MN people with whom the steppe people mixed to create Corded Ware were, in fact, GAC, which might mean that's how Corded Ware became fair. Certainly it wasn't from Yamnaya.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the ANE individual with the "gene" for blonde hair (as I said, I highly doubt one gene alone is responsible) still had the genes for dark skin, so sort of like the Solomon Islanders. I used to know the "blonde" gene they carried, but I've forgotten.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What date is that Corded Ware sample, Holderlin? Is it before these?



    Also, what are the dates of the GAC samples? They're really fair if Genetiker is correct, and I've seen speculation that the MN people with whom the steppe people mixed to create Corded Ware were, in fact, GAC, which might mean that's how Corded Ware became fair. Certainly it wasn't from Yamnaya.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the ANE individual with the "gene" for blonde hair (as I said, I highly doubt one gene alone is responsible) still had the genes for dark skin, so sort of like the Solomon Islanders. I used to know the "blonde" gene they carried, but I've forgotten.

    I think the genetic relationship are more complicate than only autosomal DNA. GAC are almost completely EEF but also almost completely y-dna I2 so a WHG lineage. The link between the ante-big scale demic migrations populations that had those light features and the post-multicultural-populations like GAC or CWC might only be resolved with a big scale, in time, sampling. I highly doubt that Afontova Gora individuals would look like that Melanesian, is or their complexion might be different of modern western siberian of course, but evolution is gradually, how is modern native american skin color genetically regard ? is it dark or light or olive ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I remember have seen here the user Firehaired say that one of the Kostenki individual could have had some genes for proto-redhairs something like that, the same with the Afontova Gora 3 individual could have had some genes with proto-blonde hair. For ANE coming with Q1a2 i have to say that i'm not really sure of anything, Q1a2 seems very related with R1b in mesolithic eastern europe, but Q1a2 is typically siberian given that this is the principal lineage of native americans. R1a is found in neolithic baikal and seems pretty much siberian / eastern european too in context of pre-neolithic. EHG is part ANE but R1b in mesolithic latvia and balkans are mostly WHG with some EHG with a CHG transition in early neolithic wich is a fusion of EHG and something Iran_Neolithic wich have ANE... if i recall ? The only point that i can think of is that, Western Siberian and Central Asian ANE populations in pre-neolithic had an intense relationship with each others and influence genetically a lot of peripheral populations from Eastern Europe, Iran to Caucasus. There is also a great possibility that light hairs and light features in general evolved regionally in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia in a Kostenki-Mal'ta related population before expanding.
    I see i few days ago that apparently some russian scientists have some new Khvalynsk y-dna with some R1a1 and O1a1(???) we might look in the futur if this is confirmed, that would give a new view on the relationship with eastern europe and eastern asia with ANE in his center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think the genetic relationship are more complicate than only autosomal DNA. GAC are almost completely EEF but also almost completely y-dna I2 so a WHG lineage. The link between the ante-big scale demic migrations populations that had those light features and the post-multicultural-populations like GAC or CWC might only be resolved with a big scale, in time, sampling. I highly doubt that Afontova Gora individuals would look like that Melanesian, is or their complexion might be different of modern western siberian of course, but evolution is gradually, how is modern native american skin color genetically regard ? is it dark or light or olive ?
    No, I don't think they would have been that dark: that wasn't my point. I highly doubt they were "European" fair, however, as difficult as that seems to be for certain people. American Indians in North America are highly admixed. South American Indians get a lot of solar radiation. They were certainly there for long enough for selection to play its part.

    That said, this is what the Karataina look like, who were used in a lot of early modeling;
    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/w...s/20blood.html

    Blackfoot:


    Fwiw, except for a bit around the eyes, they don't look East Asian to me at all.

    I remember the first time I went out west: the Indians sure didn't look like the ones in the movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, I don't think they would have been that dark: that wasn't my point. I highly doubt they were "European" fair, however, as difficult as that seems to be for certain people. American Indians in North America are highly admixed. South American Indians get a lot of solar radiation. They were certainly there for long enough for selection to play its part.

    That said, this is what the Karataina look like, who were used in a lot of early modeling;
    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/w...s/20blood.html

    Blackfoot:


    Fwiw, except for a bit around the eyes, they don't look East Asian to me at all.

    I remember the first time I went out west: the Indians sure didn't look like the ones in the movies.
    North Native Americans sometimes look more archaic and south ones looks more smooth in the shape of their face. I wonder how is the complexion in argentine and chillean natives because it's in the temperate part of southern hemisphere with maybe less radiation. I dont think the stereotypical blonde blue eyed european exist before neolithic-eneolithic transition. In scandinavia and eastern europe, a lot of blonde and blue eyed people have a yellowish skin, not the classical pale white of western europe or the caucasus, dont know if it came with CE asiatic migrations or if prehistoric EHG already had those features. We shall never found the exact populations that had primarlly developed, red hairs, blonde hairs, blue eyes, green eyes, amber eyes, light skins... but i'm pretty sure all the founder effect of each one of these features happenned in north eurasia, where ? For exemple, CHG might have had mutations for light skin, but we dont know where they came from, after all, ancestors of Kotias and Satsurblia or even haplogroup J could have been originally WHG-related and get some new autosomal dna going south, creating a new autosomal population but with the same physical features as those northern ancestors, they would become CHG, but their WHG-like ancestral population, remained in Eastern Europe would become EHG after an other migration in that population this time from an ANE-related population. Like paleolithic HG's from europe might have their own autosomal dna, but look like africans or australoids. We can make thousands of inferences that dont contradicte actual studies but we just dont have any informations to make a migration pattern and there is 0.01 chance that we found rests of a paleolithic population, saying 20 individuals, all blonde haired.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    According to Dr. Brace, black foot Indian ties with UP, late bronze chandman in west mongolia, greek bronze.

    Anyway, when we discuss light eye, light hair, we need to consider kalash together.we can find one part of siberian culture in kalash culture. As mentioned before, EHG/ scythian had red hair, of which the highest frequency is in udmurt except Island people.
    So I think 3 west siberia HG women would have the same light gene of SHG with EDAR.

    Actually Kalash’s culture is really fascinating.

    "Gandau" statues used in Kalash funery art
    http://understanding-our-past.blogsp...andau-and.html

    (Their pose is exactly same as bronze artifact of seima turbino shaman's)







    the ancient wooden idols figure at Siberian:
    https://previews.123rf.com/images/ra...t-siberian.jpg


    Amur basin shamanic idol:

    https://todiscoverrussia.com/indigen...ing-their-own/


    http://www.2pathfindercounseling.com...the-ulchi.html:
    really similar idol picture


    maybe origin here:

    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/ne...dol-of-Siberia

    P.s

    I really don't understand why genetic admixture of kalash is so frequently changed from 2012 to 2018. I think it is 4 times. On 2015 they were mixed with siberian and CHG.


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    If the "blonde" trait was concentrated in the ruling class, the Jarls, it would be desired and selected even by the Karls.

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    @Johen,
    C. Loring Brace said the following:
    "Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations".", which we know is rubbish, so I wouldn't bet on him being right about anything else.

    The fact that the "modeling" of the Kalash has gone through so many large changes indicates to me that one should take all such modeling with a large grain of salt, especially modeling done by amateurs, some of whom have a specific agenda. There's also the fact that as new and more proximate ancient samples are found, the modeling would, of course, change.

    However, I think everyone agrees that the Kalash have high amounts of ancestry from people on the steppe (long after Yamnaya), people who most probably picked up light skin and eyes in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i would have to look up info about blonde hairs but light skin was already fixated in SHG so i guess the selection process is older. they also carried this allele here i believe(copy paste from wiki)

    • SLC45A2

    Solute carrier family 45 member 2 (SLC45A2 or MATP) aids in the transport and processing of tyrosine, a precursor to melanin. It has also been shown to be one of the significant components of the skin color of modern Europeans through its Phe374Leu (rs16891982[55]) allele that has been directly correlated with skin color variation in mixed-race populations.[41][52] This variation is ubiquitous in European populations but extremely rare elsewhere and shows strong signs of selection.[53][54][56]


    The allele had been around, but it hadn't been selected for enough to lead to super fair featured people e.g. blonde with light skin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What date is that Corded Ware sample, Holderlin? Is it before these?



    Also, what are the dates of the GAC samples? They're really fair if Genetiker is correct, and I've seen speculation that the MN people with whom the steppe people mixed to create Corded Ware were, in fact, GAC, which might mean that's how Corded Ware became fair. Certainly it wasn't from Yamnaya.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the ANE individual with the "gene" for blonde hair (as I said, I highly doubt one gene alone is responsible) still had the genes for dark skin, so sort of like the Solomon Islanders. I used to know the "blonde" gene they carried, but I've forgotten.

    Of course those samples predate CWC, C'mon, but they aren't nearly as phenotypically fair, nor as LCT positive as modern Europeans, much less modern North Europeans. That is what I'm speaking to as it relates to the discussion of blondism, which you only see in high frequencies in modern North Europe. We only begin to see anything close to this after CWC, in populations that look to descend from CWC like genotypes e.g. Andronovo, Shintasha, Srubnaya, and Nordic Bronze Age (along with BB related groups like the Raithlin samples).

    This is why I'm saying that it looks like it's happening in or around CWC genotypes as we move through the bronze age. This also comes along with elevated LCT frequencies, which why I'm theorizing that it was the combination of LCT and fair traits that was really being selected for rather than one or the other.

    I'm getting more and more convinced of this, so I welcome criticism, but we need something like this to explain this explosion of features that are ultra-fair in comparison to the rest of the world. I do think that this genotype in dairying populations offers such a cause.

    You have these alleles floating around in these populations, probably from ancient selection events, but they don't seem to really be increasing in frequency all that much for thousands of years. Then all of sudden these alleles, along with LCT, increase drastically right around the time when stock breeding, and presumably dairying, becomes prevalent.

    And yes I do now think that GAC is a good candidate for the contribution that you mention, because we don't see these phenotypes until we see more WHG and some EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Of course those samples predate CWC, C'mon, but they aren't nearly as phenotypically fair, nor as LCT positive as modern Europeans, much less modern North Europeans. That is what I'm speaking to as it relates to the discussion of blondism, which you only see in high frequencies in modern North Europe. We only begin to see anything close to this after CWC, in populations that look to descend from CWC like genotypes e.g. Andronovo, Shintasha, Srubnaya, and Nordic Bronze Age (along with BB related groups like the Raithlin samples).

    This is why I'm saying that it looks like it's happening in or around CWC genotypes as we move through the bronze age. This also comes along with elevated LCT frequencies, which why I'm theorizing that it was the combination of LCT and fair traits that was really being selected for rather than one or the other.

    I'm getting more and more convinced of this, so I welcome criticism, but we need something like this to explain this explosion of features that are ultra-fair in comparison to the rest of the world. I do think that this genotype in dairying populations offers such a cause.

    You have these alleles floating around in these populations, probably from ancient selection events, but they don't seem to really be increasing in frequency all that much for thousands of years. Then all of sudden these alleles, along with LCT, increase drastically right around the time when stock breeding, and presumably dairying, becomes prevalent.
    No, you c'mon. I asked a perfectly civil question, and when I do so I expect a perfectly civil answer.

    I could care less where this phenotype "originated", but you were making a broad and general and rather emphatic statement, without providing any specific data, and I was seeking clarification. I didn't know the number or date of the CW sample(s) to which you were referring. I also didn't know if in addition to knowing the dates for Corded Ware you had taken into account both the dates and the phenotypic data of the samples in the Hungarian Neolithic and Chalcolithic and the GAC samples.

    Apparently, the dates for the Corded Ware "more" fair samples are later than the Hungarian Neolithic although you still haven't provided the dates or the numbers to see what percentage had this phenotype, and their specific date.

    You also don't seem to know the dates of the GAC, or whether the percentages are higher and the dates are earlier than for Corded Ware. They seem, from the phenotypic analysis, to be really fair, more so even than a lot of the "steppe" samples (not Yamnaya, which is very dark in comparison). They also, according to a lot of modeling, are one of the contributing populations to Corded Ware.

    If all of that is basically the case, then it is highly unlikely, that, as you said, "This genotype appears to originate in CWC type people,".


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