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Thread: proper Indus Valley Civilization DNA to come

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Of course those samples predate CWC, C'mon, but they aren't nearly as phenotypically fair, nor as LCT positive as modern Europeans, much less modern North Europeans. That is what I'm speaking to as it relates to the discussion of blondism, which you only see in high frequencies in modern North Europe. We only begin to see anything close to this after CWC, in populations that look to descend from CWC like genotypes e.g. Andronovo, Shintasha, Srubnaya, and Nordic Bronze Age (along with BB related groups like the Raithlin samples).
    This is why I'm saying that it looks like it's happening in or around CWC genotypes as we move through the bronze age. This also comes along with elevated LCT frequencies, which why I'm theorizing that it was the combination of LCT and fair traits that was really being selected for rather than one or the other.
    I'm getting more and more convinced of this, so I welcome criticism, but we need something like this to explain this explosion of features that are ultra-fair in comparison to the rest of the world. I do think that this genotype in dairying populations offers such a cause.
    You have these alleles floating around in these populations, probably from ancient selection events, but they don't seem to really be increasing in frequency all that much for thousands of years. Then all of sudden these alleles, along with LCT, increase drastically right around the time when stock breeding, and presumably dairying, becomes prevalent.
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/...ved-white-skin
    "But in the far north—where low light levels would favor pale skin—the team found a different picture in hunter-gatherers: Seven people from the 7700-year-old Motala archaeological site in southern Sweden had both light skin gene variants, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin.
    Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency."
    there is something else i found quite interessting:
    "They found that selection strongly favored several gene variants for tallness in northern and central Europeans, starting 8000 years ago, with a boost coming from the Yamnaya migration, starting 4800 years ago. The Yamnaya have the greatest genetic potential for being tall of any of the populations, which is consistent with measurements of their ancient skeletons. In contrast, selection favored shorter people in Italy and Spain starting 8000 years ago, according to the paper now posted on the bioRxiv preprint server. Spaniards, in particular, shrank in stature 6000 years ago, perhaps as a result of adapting to colder temperatures and a poor diet."
    that last sentence makes no real sense in my opinion. how was spain colder than central and northern europe.
    here is the full study about the topic
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf
    so the frequency of those alleles for skin, eye and hair color did increase in the last few thousand years in every population. but it was already high in SHGs way before CWC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Johen,
    C. Loring Brace said the following:
    "Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations".", which we know is rubbish, so I wouldn't bet on him being right about anything else.

    Considering Russian and greek anthropologist work, I mentioned his statement.

    we will see the result of greek bronze later, who were buried in supine position in shaft tomb.
    I have located the text of George Panagiaris important 1993 doctoral thesis on Greek skeletal material. This may be one of the most comprehensive efforts to study the Ancient Greek population from a physical anthropological perspective (413 male and 354 female crania, using 65 biometric characters as well odontological traits). Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.

    https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistor...oto_blog&h=480

  3. #103
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, you c'mon. I asked a perfectly civil question, and when I do so I expect a perfectly civil answer.
    stop being weird

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I could care less where this phenotype "originated"......
    You mean you couldn't care less. If you could care less that would mean that you actually do have some care relative to your point of zero care. Freudian slip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I could care less where this phenotype "originated", but you were making a broad and general and rather emphatic statement, without providing any specific data, and I was seeking clarification. I didn't know the number or date of the CW sample(s) to which you were referring. I also didn't know if in addition to knowing the dates for Corded Ware you had taken into account both the dates and the phenotypic data of the samples in the Hungarian Neolithic and Chalcolithic and the GAC samples.

    Apparently, the dates for the Corded Ware "more" fair samples are later than the Hungarian Neolithic although you still haven't provided the dates or the numbers to see what percentage had this phenotype, and their specific date.

    You also don't seem to know the dates of the GAC, or whether the percentages are higher and the dates are earlier than for Corded Ware. They seem, from the phenotypic analysis, to be really fair, more so even than a lot of the "steppe" samples (not Yamnaya, which is very dark in comparison). They also, according to a lot of modeling, are one of the contributing populations to Corded Ware.

    If all of that is basically the case, then it is highly unlikely, that, as you said, "This genotype appears to originate in CWC type people,".

    I clarified why I think that this phenotype originated in CWC and/or immediate descendants. Read it again.

    And I said that I agreed that GAC likely contributed to the concentration of these alleles in line with conclusions that they contributed to CWC.

    I'm very familiar with GAC. I don't have the dates of the samples handy, but they will likely be just before or contemporaneous with CWC.

    Forgive me, I presumed it was well established whence these "North Euro" phenotypes began showing up. I will do some digging and post back

  4. #104
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/...ved-white-skin
    "But in the far north—where low light levels would favor pale skin—the team found a different picture in hunter-gatherers: Seven people from the 7700-year-old Motala archaeological site in southern Sweden had both light skin gene variants, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin.
    Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency."
    there is something else i found quite interessting:
    "They found that selection strongly favored several gene variants for tallness in northern and central Europeans, starting 8000 years ago, with a boost coming from the Yamnaya migration, starting 4800 years ago. The Yamnaya have the greatest genetic potential for being tall of any of the populations, which is consistent with measurements of their ancient skeletons. In contrast, selection favored shorter people in Italy and Spain starting 8000 years ago, according to the paper now posted on the bioRxiv preprint server. Spaniards, in particular, shrank in stature 6000 years ago, perhaps as a result of adapting to colder temperatures and a poor diet."
    that last sentence makes no real sense in my opinion. how was spain colder than central and northern europe.
    here is the full study about the topic
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf
    so the frequency of those alleles for skin, eye and hair color did increase in the last few thousand years in every population. but it was already high in SHGs way before CWC.
    I know that the Motala samples had those alleles, but I'm pretty sure that phenotypically they were still very far from modern North Euros, or Andronovo to give an example of an ancient population.

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    @Holderlin,

    My reading comprehension is quite good, thank-you. Perhaps you should re-read your own posts. You have not proved that this phenotype originated with Corded Ware. It existed before them, so clearly it couldn't have ORIGINATED with them. Is it so difficult to admit that you made an incorrect statement?

    You know what, you seem to be incapable of discussing these issues without making snarky comments. Therefore, you can in future discuss them with other members.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #106
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Holderlin,

    My reading comprehension is quite good, thank-you. Perhaps you should re-read your own posts. You have not proved that this phenotype originated with Corded Ware. It existed before them, so clearly it couldn't have ORIGINATED with them. Is it so difficult to admit that you made an incorrect statement?
    If I used the word "originated" then I misspoke. My meaning was the these traits increased in frequency, and spread, in populations that appear to be descended in large part from CWC genotypes, that still exist today. And that this also comes along with lactase persistence. This is absolutely true.

    This selection process kept on going all the way into the Iron Age. Notice I said "through the bronze age".

    What I'm saying isn't controversial.

    I understand that there are samples with genotypes showing relatively high frequencies of these alleles before CWC. Nothing that I say is opposed to that fact. We both recognize that GAC has been shown to have contributed to CWC, which is actually supportive of what I'm saying in that they provide an additional source for these allele.

    Also, it should be noted that Genetiker's chart showing skin, eye, and hair color is very robust. I don't think it's meant to shows, for example, something like the subtle difference between a typical German with dark hair and a Spaniard, Basque, or Italian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You know what, you seem to be incapable of discussing these issues without making snarky comments. Therefore, you can in future discuss them with other members.
    I don't know what the last part means, but I make plenty of non-snarky posts on here.

    I think you're being overly sensitive.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I see i few days ago that apparently some russian scientists have some new Khvalynsk y-dna with some R1a1 and O1a1(???) we might look in the futur if this is confirmed, that would give a new view on the relationship with eastern europe and eastern asia with ANE in his center.
    So i saw both by Carlos Quiles of Indo-European.Eu and Davidski of Eurogenes that those same have found R1b-L51 in the pontic steppe, in an eneolithic burial related to Mariupol and Khvalynsk.

  8. #108
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    nah, the L51 (U106) is that found in the Indus steppe
    ;)

    https://andvari5.livejournal.com/7446.html
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    nah, the L51 (U106) is that found in the Indus steppe
    ;)

    https://andvari5.livejournal.com/7446.html
    It makes reference to the volga-steppe where do you read Indus ?

  10. #110
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    in nowhere, as in nowhere I read U106

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    in nowhere, as in nowhere I read U106
    Is this kind of joke of yours?

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    I'm not so wrong, I only expose that some infos seem blended in a bad manner, by that I called the Indus U106

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    It seems the paper on these results is finally going to come out. (I know, I know, people have been saying that for ages.)
    http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/08/...i-sneak-peaks/

    It's not a big change from the pre-print except perhaps in terms of the dating?

    "Basically, the individual(s) they got DNA out of did not have any Eurasian steppe ancestry. This seems to confirm again that Eurasian steppe ancestry, which is found in fractions as high as ~30% in twice-born varna in Northern India (e.g., Rajputs, Tiwari Brahmins), arrived after 2000 BC. That is, after the peak period of the Indus Valley Civilization."

    Razib Khan has an interesting post up about the political use of results like this on all sides. I think it's worth bearing in mind, as he says, that it shouldn't be about high fiving the "foreign" nature of Hindu culture or the BIG influence of steppe genetics in India, which India wide is a bit of an exaggeration.

    See:
    http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/08/...medium=twitter

    "the cline is probably 30% among the kalash, to 10-20% in gangetic plain, and then 0-10% in south india"

  14. #114
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    Only 30%? Wasn't the steppe early-middle bronze age admixture among the Kalash calculated at like 50% or something (or am I simply living under a rock at this point)? Also as far as culture is concerned, how deep was the impact of BMAC culture on that of the Sintashta and Andronovo people? (considering that the Sintashta mines shipped raw material to BMAC on quite a large scale over a contact period spanning possibly several hundred years). Furthermore, the arrival of steppe admixture in south Asia is dated to around 1500 - 1200 BCE, isn't it?

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