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Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

  1. #251
    Regular Member JajarBingan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    So it seems Dacians and Goths were actually closed people.
    Not at all.

    I recommend this book to you. It's a good entry point to archaeology and old cultures from the territory of Romania and neighbouring countries.
    It has over 100 pages covering from Mesolithic to the Medieval period. It should prep you for debate.

    https://carturesti.ro/carte/marea-is...=Marea+istorie

    http://www.laurafrunza.com/2018/06/1...rie-ilustrata/

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Goths definitely left a mark. But, I think it would be a hiccup in comparison to other moving groups lol. I could be wrong but I don't think they had long lasting settlements, so realistically there impact should be minimal. Though I imagine it would be more pronounced around Ukraine/Romania.

    Regarding clusters, the most common Balkan cluster of I2a1b-Din is DinA3(PH908). This is only 5 percent in Romanian I2a1b-Din. It reaches its highest percentage in Bosnia(over 40 percent), Croatia(over 30 percent), Serbia(about 30 percent), Montenegro(27 oercent roughly), Macedonia(15 percent), Bulgaria(roughly 10 percent), and Romania(just shy of 5 percent). http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-...ubclade-ph908/

    Take a look at this graph illustrating. Most common Slavic I2a1b-Din type is DinA. especially A3(PH908). Which is low in Romania compared to B/C clusters. I was shocked to see most Albanian I2a1b-Din so far was shared with the most common Romanian C cluster. So even if it was assimilated Proto-Slav, it looks like it could have moved with Vlachs through Albania.

    Thank you very much for the info!
    A3 I think could be spread by the Goths, because I see it in Poland and Germany and also in Italy.
    Is A3 also present in Iberia, probability to have spread by Goths increases.
    I was curious about A3, is it also present in Sweden, to see if the legend that Goths came from somewhere in South Sweden makes any sense.
    In fact is very possible that Goths migration played a big part in forming of the Slavs ethnicity.
    I do not know to have Slavic language mentioned anywhere till 600 AD.
    And Goths could have actually lived in Poland and Germany,not in Scandinavia and started to migrate from Poland and Germany, Southwards and Eastwards.
    After they migrated to Romania, Balkans they moved towards Iberia passing through Italy.
    But as they moved their paternal lines changed as they mixed with and assimilated local people.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    Not at all.

    I recommend this book to you. It's a good entry point to archaeology and old cultures from the territory of Romania and neighbouring countries.
    It has over 100 pages covering from Mesolithic to the Medieval period. It should prep you for debate.

    https://carturesti.ro/carte/marea-is...=Marea+istorie

    http://www.laurafrunza.com/2018/06/1...rie-ilustrata/
    Oh really.
    And to whom Dacians were related, to Celto-Italic people?
    Or they were related to Iranic people?
    Because you know that modern history discovered that actually Romans/Italic people and Gaulish people had a fusion between them.
    Or somehow Slavs existed and Slavic language existed but there is no trace of Slavic language left because Greek and Italian historians were "racist".
    NATO have paid these historians to write even about the existence of Finns, but not about the existence of Slavs.
    Oh wait, in those times NATO did not even existed and Roman Empire was the strongest empire in Europe, North Africa and Middle East and their historians actually wrote what they knew, without any sentiments or feeling involved.
    And Greek historians wrote the same, they wrote what they knew.
    Slavs might have been hidden very well in those dense forests from Poland or Russia actual lands that Greek and Italian historians knew even about Finns, Celts but did not knew about Slavs.
    Or actually Slavs as an ethnicity appeared after Goths and various Iranic tribes migration which could explain why Poles have as tradition that their nobility was Sarmatians.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Oh really.
    And to whom Dacians were related, to Celto-Italic people?
    Or they were related to Iranic people?
    Because you know that modern history discovered that actually Romans/Italic people and Gaulish people had a fusion between them.
    Or somehow Slavs existed and Slavic language existed but there is no trace of Slavic language left because Greek and Italian historians were "racist".
    NATO have paid these historians to write even about the existence of Finns, but not about the existence of Slavs.
    Oh wait, in those times NATO did not even existed and Roman Empire was the strongest empire in Europe, North Africa and Middle East and their historians actually wrote what they knew, without any sentiments or feeling involved.
    And Greek historians wrote the same, they wrote what they knew.
    Slavs might have been hidden very well in those dense forests from Poland or Russia actual lands that Greek and Italian historians knew even about Finns, Celts but did not knew about Slavs.
    Or actually Slavs as an ethnicity appeared after Goths and various Iranic tribes migration which could explain why Poles have as tradition that their nobility was Sarmatians.
    What if they called all of them with name "Scythians" ?

    Or actually Slavs as an ethnicity appeared after Goths and various Iranic tribes migration which could explain why Poles have as tradition that their nobility was Sarmatians.
    Not correct. Remove all Germanic and Iranic words from Slavic, and nothing will be changed. :) Slavic would still be Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Thank you very much for the info!
    A3 I think could be spread by the Goths, because I see it in Poland and Germany and also in Italy.
    Is A3 also present in Iberia, probability to have spread by Goths increases.
    I was curious about A3, is it also present in Sweden, to see if the legend that Goths came from somewhere in South Sweden makes any sense.
    In fact is very possible that Goths migration played a big part in forming of the Slavs ethnicity.
    I do not know to have Slavic language mentioned anywhere till 600 AD.
    And Goths could have actually lived in Poland and Germany,not in Scandinavia and started to migrate from Poland and Germany, Southwards and Eastwards.
    After they migrated to Romania, Balkans they moved towards Iberia passing through Italy.
    But as they moved their paternal lines changed as they mixed with and assimilated local people.
    What Goths? Late-Proto-Slavic was formed in 1 year AD with kiev culture.

  6. #256
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Thank you very much for the info!
    A3 I think could be spread by the Goths, because I see it in Poland and Germany and also in Italy.
    Is A3 also present in Iberia, probability to have spread by Goths increases.
    I was curious about A3, is it also present in Sweden, to see if the legend that Goths came from somewhere in South Sweden makes any sense.
    In fact is very possible that Goths migration played a big part in forming of the Slavs ethnicity.
    I do not know to have Slavic language mentioned anywhere till 600 AD.
    And Goths could have actually lived in Poland and Germany,not in Scandinavia and started to migrate from Poland and Germany, Southwards and Eastwards.
    After they migrated to Romania, Balkans they moved towards Iberia passing through Italy.
    But as they moved their paternal lines changed as they mixed with and assimilated local people.
    Not likely at all. In Italy the A3 clade is less than 0.2%. Germany less than 0.6%, so Goths or Bastarnae theory is clearly impossible no matter how we twist and turn it.

    Therefore it was not from Goths, but only Slavs.

    Romanian church-script was Slavic before they switched to a Latinized scripture within the last 100 years. It proves there was a strong hint of Slavicization in former Dacia.

  7. #257
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Oh really.
    And to whom Dacians were related, to Celto-Italic people?
    Or they were related to Iranic people?
    Because you know that modern history discovered that actually Romans/Italic people and Gaulish people had a fusion between them.
    Or somehow Slavs existed and Slavic language existed but there is no trace of Slavic language left because Greek and Italian historians were "racist".
    NATO have paid these historians to write even about the existence of Finns, but not about the existence of Slavs.
    Oh wait, in those times NATO did not even existed and Roman Empire was the strongest empire in Europe, North Africa and Middle East and their historians actually wrote what they knew, without any sentiments or feeling involved.
    And Greek historians wrote the same, they wrote what they knew.
    Slavs might have been hidden very well in those dense forests from Poland or Russia actual lands that Greek and Italian historians knew even about Finns, Celts but did not knew about Slavs.
    Or actually Slavs as an ethnicity appeared after Goths and various Iranic tribes migration which could explain why Poles have as tradition that their nobility was Sarmatians.
    Dacians, before converting to Latin language - spoke thraco-illyrian
    .
    The Relationship between the Thraco-Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic Language.
    Indo-Europeanists divide the Celtic and Italic languages into two major groups: the Q-dialects and P-dialects. The Q-Celtic dialects were those which were separated earlier from the main group such as Proto-Irish and Proto-Celtiberian, according to the treatment of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars in these languages. The P-dialects turned the labiovelars into bilabials, while Q-dialects turned the labiovelars into simple velars. Instead, east of the Pyrenees, the Celtic dialects have turned the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars into labials, like in Osco-Umbrian.
    Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were related to Italic (especially Oscan and Umbrian) and Celtic (especially Continental Celtic). To the east, they had to have been in contact with the Balto-Slavic group which has many loanwords from Thraco-Dacian. As I mentioned above, this language had some important phonological features in common with Italic and Celtic languages and, to a lesser extent, it shared some (other) features with the Balto-Slavic group.
    Thraco-Dacian (and Illyrian) treated the labiovelars differently, according to the phonological environment. Thus, those followed by front vowels (a, o, u) lost their velar feature, turning into a labial (p or b), while those followed by e or i turned first into simple velars, which later, perhaps in Late Thraco-Dacian (preserved as such in Romanian), turned into affricates or sibilants (see infra). This second phonological aspects brings Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian closer to the Balto-Slavic group. Regarding the treatment of labiovelars in the Italic languages, the situation is identical to the Celtic group, namely, Latin and Faliscan, which migrated earlier into the Italian Peninsula, kept the labiovelars, unlike Oscan and Umbrian, which have the same treatment of labiovelars as Continental Celtic.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  8. #258
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Thank you very much for the info!
    A3 I think could be spread by the Goths, because I see it in Poland and Germany and also in Italy.
    Is A3 also present in Iberia, probability to have spread by Goths increases.
    I was curious about A3, is it also present in Sweden, to see if the legend that Goths came from somewhere in South Sweden makes any sense.
    In fact is very possible that Goths migration played a big part in forming of the Slavs ethnicity.
    I do not know to have Slavic language mentioned anywhere till 600 AD.
    And Goths could have actually lived in Poland and Germany,not in Scandinavia and started to migrate from Poland and Germany, Southwards and Eastwards.
    After they migrated to Romania, Balkans they moved towards Iberia passing through Italy.
    But as they moved their paternal lines changed as they mixed with and assimilated local people.
    Doubtful, as A3(PH908) is the most represented in all Slavic countries and most surely connected to their expansion. The only ones that could in theory possibly be connected to goths are B and C, as they takes a dive further westward. Most I2-Din in Sweden is due to the Slavic expansion, its relatively very low there.

    Personally, I think most Goths were in reality Proto-Balts/Proto-Slavs with a Germanic Elite.

  9. #259
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Dacians, before converting to Latin language - spoke thraco-illyrian
    .
    The Relationship between the Thraco-Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic Language.
    Indo-Europeanists divide the Celtic and Italic languages into two major groups: the Q-dialects and P-dialects. The Q-Celtic dialects were those which were separated earlier from the main group such as Proto-Irish and Proto-Celtiberian, according to the treatment of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars in these languages. The P-dialects turned the labiovelars into bilabials, while Q-dialects turned the labiovelars into simple velars. Instead, east of the Pyrenees, the Celtic dialects have turned the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars into labials, like in Osco-Umbrian.
    Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were related to Italic (especially Oscan and Umbrian) and Celtic (especially Continental Celtic). To the east, they had to have been in contact with the Balto-Slavic group which has many loanwords from Thraco-Dacian. As I mentioned above, this language had some important phonological features in common with Italic and Celtic languages and, to a lesser extent, it shared some (other) features with the Balto-Slavic group.
    Thraco-Dacian (and Illyrian) treated the labiovelars differently, according to the phonological environment. Thus, those followed by front vowels (a, o, u) lost their velar feature, turning into a labial (p or b), while those followed by e or i turned first into simple velars, which later, perhaps in Late Thraco-Dacian (preserved as such in Romanian), turned into affricates or sibilants (see infra). This second phonological aspects brings Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian closer to the Balto-Slavic group. Regarding the treatment of labiovelars in the Italic languages, the situation is identical to the Celtic group, namely, Latin and Faliscan, which migrated earlier into the Italian Peninsula, kept the labiovelars, unlike Oscan and Umbrian, which have the same treatment of labiovelars as Continental Celtic.
    We know relatively little about these peoples. In reality, most certainly they were not related or loosely related if that. Illyrian and Thracian may share some relation as is evidenced by their YDNA. Language was however different. Dacians overlapped with Thracians and may share relation via border regions but not directly. The only people who can be possibly connected to each other are Getae and Dacians. Roman and Greek writers lumped these people together no different than modern ignorants who lump all Balkan peoples together.

  10. #260
    Regular Member JajarBingan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Oh really.
    And to whom Dacians were related, to Celto-Italic people?
    They were a fusion of Gáva-Holigrady, Basarabi and Babadag cultures. On a meta level they were related to Getae, Odrysians and other Thracian confederations.
    Getae, who lived in the extra-Carpathic space, had closer ties to the Greek world via the Odrysians.
    Dacians, who dwelled mostly in the intra-Carpathic space, had visible Celtic La Tene influences, at least at the level of societal organisation.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I am living in Romania and getting testing would be quite complicated.
    Not at all. You have Yseq (see their STR panels) and LivingDNA (they have 3-in-1 ancestry testing), both European companies with affordable prices. Testing kit will come in a few days and when sending samples back, just send them in a padded bubble envelope with tracking. Because Romania is in EU, they won't bother you with customs. It is like sending a domestic letter. Easy-peasy!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think both romanians and hungarians has a strong slavic ancestry. My personal evidences: At First:
    I searched for all my 8 great-great-grandfathers direct paternal line male descendants, (and two other of my great-great-great grandfathers male descendants) and managed to identify their exact Y haplogroup.
    I think, the results are interesting.
    1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Y81971. family name: Küzmös, earliest known ancestor born: 1735 Penészlek, Szatmár county, religion: greek catholic, origin: unknown, maybe illyrian, thracian or dacian?.
    2.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22069. f.n: Dobi, e.k.a: 1758 Balkány, Szabolcs, county. r: reformed protestant, o: germanic.
    3.) R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172 f. n: Béres, e.k.a: 1831 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, r: greek catholic, o: Hallstatt celtic
    4.) I2a-L621-A1328 f.n: Tóth, e.k.a: 1809 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, greek catholic o: proto-slavic, rusin
    5.) R1a-M458-YP415 f.n: Kalenyák, e.k.a: 1813 Felsőszvidnik, Sáros county (today Slovakia) greek catholic, o: western slavic, polish
    6.) R1a-L664-S2866 f.n: Simon, e.k.a: 1758 Rimaszombat, Gömör county (today: Slovakia) reformed, o: western germanic, maybe langobard
    7.) I2a-L621-Y3118 f.n: Kiss, e.k.a: 1783 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, proto-slavic, rusin
    8.) I1-L22-FGC14412 f.n: Szilágyi e.k.a: 1795 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, o: proto-germanic, scandinavian, varangian from Kiew Rus?
    9.) R1a-CTS1211-Y33-YP1701 f.n: Petruska e.k.a: 1781 Nyíradony Szabolcs county, roman catholic o: eastern slavic, slovakian or rusin
    10.) Q-L53-L330-YP1695 f.n: Csehely, e.k.a: 1798, Bánháza, Szabolcs county, greek catholic, o: Cuman or jasz, according to Maciamo: Hunnic from Inner Asian steppes.
    So it means, I haven't finno-ugric, central asian turkish or scythian, other iranian ancestry of these 10 ancestors.
    But I have
    30% indigenous proto-european mesolithic hunter, (I1, I2).
    10 % neolithic farmer (or mesolithic hunter?) from Africa (later the Mediterraneum, E1b1b); 50% Bronz Age invaders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, Indo-europeans, (R1a, R1b)
    10% Inner Asian (Hunnic?) invaders from the Mongolian steppes, (Q)

    From another point of view:
    40% slavic
    30% germanic
    10% celtic
    10% illyrian/thracian/dacian
    10% hunnic-inner asian.

    At second:
    I searched my closest relative families all of this, and my two I2a-L621 results, based on the YFULL, and FtDNA:

    I2a-L621-S17250-A1328 known families: (TMRCA: 1400 ybp)
    Sergeyev: Tula, Russia
    Prudkyi: Harkov Ukraina
    Rudy: Lipivci, Ukraina
    Barbo: Talachin, Belarus
    Vlarenic-Stachowski: Stochava, Belarus
    Dzuba: Botajnica, Bosnia
    Ciric: Maricka, Bosnia
    Vranjesevic: Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
    Wisniewski: Warsawa, Poland
    Starasinic: Krasinec, Slovenia
    Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
    Tóth: Nyírbéltek, Hungary

    I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 known families (TMRCA 2200 ybp)
    Vorobyev: Jaroslavl, Russia
    Lepeshov: Sloboda, Russia
    Karandin: Tver, Russia
    Mayorov: Iskozy Belarus
    Rogozin: Suhumnichi Russia
    Guzev: Voronez, Russia
    Akenfelds: Nikrace, Latvia
    Leszcyszyn: Odrzechowa, Poland
    Bogdanec: Mcensk, Russia
    Led: Sagun, Russia
    Yagovtsev: Krasnodar, Russia
    Vlasov: ? Russia
    Mazalov: Sovetskaya, Russia
    Voronin: Moscow Russia
    Sari: ?
    Lavrov: ?
    Chebotar: ?
    Litowczak: Smerek, Poland
    Dorogov: ?
    Yurkovets: ?
    Czerniechowski: Poland
    Pererva: Kazatskoye, Ukraina
    Borgelin: Terralampi Vihti, Finland
    N.N: Viljandi, Estland
    N.N. Ahtirsky, Ukraina
    N.N: Iasi, Romania
    N.N. Istanbul, Turkey.

    According this, I think, both of my two I2a-L621 roots are clearly slavic. There are no west european or germanic results.

  13. #263
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    Why I think Dacians were not related to Slavs neither to Greeks?
    Because Dacians did not practiced almost any kind of agriculture.
    Dacians practiced mostly sheep herding and were also making wine and planting in very primitive matter some kind of cereal from which they made polenta.
    Slavs were not so experts in agriculture as the Romans or as the Greeks and Romanians took this lesser farming from Slavs that migrated in Romania.

    Is clear that in Transylvania is a stronger Celtic influence, since people there had as traditional cow herding more than in Muntenia or Moldavia.
    People of Transylvania had as very traditional to plant corn and raising pigs. Not all people in Transylvania had as traditional to raise cows, but there some areas where this is traditional. This cow raising was much more present in Transylvania than in Moldavia or Wallachia.
    No idea if the Dacians raised pigs, but it seems they did not raised pigs too much.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    I think both romanians and hungarians has a strong slavic ancestry. My personal evidences: At First:
    I searched for all my 8 great-great-grandfathers direct paternal line male descendants, (and two other of my great-great-great grandfathers male descendants) and managed to identify their exact Y haplogroup.
    I think, the results are interesting.
    1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Y81971. family name: Küzmös, earliest known ancestor born: 1735 Penészlek, Szatmár county, religion: greek catholic, origin: unknown, maybe illyrian, thracian or dacian?.
    2.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22069. f.n: Dobi, e.k.a: 1758 Balkány, Szabolcs, county. r: reformed protestant, o: germanic.
    3.) R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172 f. n: Béres, e.k.a: 1831 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, r: greek catholic, o: Hallstatt celtic
    4.) I2a-L621-A1328 f.n: Tóth, e.k.a: 1809 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, greek catholic o: proto-slavic, rusin
    5.) R1a-M458-YP415 f.n: Kalenyák, e.k.a: 1813 Felsőszvidnik, Sáros county (today Slovakia) greek catholic, o: western slavic, polish
    6.) R1a-L664-S2866 f.n: Simon, e.k.a: 1758 Rimaszombat, Gömör county (today: Slovakia) reformed, o: western germanic, maybe langobard
    7.) I2a-L621-Y3118 f.n: Kiss, e.k.a: 1783 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, proto-slavic, rusin
    8.) I1-L22-FGC14412 f.n: Szilágyi e.k.a: 1795 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, o: proto-germanic, scandinavian, varangian from Kiew Rus?
    9.) R1a-CTS1211-Y33-YP1701 f.n: Petruska e.k.a: 1781 Nyíradony Szabolcs county, roman catholic o: eastern slavic, slovakian or rusin
    10.) Q-L53-L330-YP1695 f.n: Csehely, e.k.a: 1798, Bánháza, Szabolcs county, greek catholic, o: Cuman or jasz, according to Maciamo: Hunnic from Inner Asian steppes.
    So it means, I haven't finno-ugric, central asian turkish or scythian, other iranian ancestry of these 10 ancestors.
    But I have
    30% indigenous proto-european mesolithic hunter, (I1, I2).
    10 % neolithic farmer (or mesolithic hunter?) from Africa (later the Mediterraneum, E1b1b); 50% Bronz Age invaders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, Indo-europeans, (R1a, R1b)
    10% Inner Asian (Hunnic?) invaders from the Mongolian steppes, (Q)

    From another point of view:
    40% slavic
    30% germanic
    10% celtic
    10% illyrian/thracian/dacian
    10% hunnic-inner asian.

    At second:
    I searched my closest relative families all of this, and my two I2a-L621 results, based on the YFULL, and FtDNA:

    I2a-L621-S17250-A1328 known families: (TMRCA: 1400 ybp)
    Sergeyev: Tula, Russia
    Prudkyi: Harkov Ukraina
    Rudy: Lipivci, Ukraina
    Barbo: Talachin, Belarus
    Vlarenic-Stachowski: Stochava, Belarus
    Dzuba: Botajnica, Bosnia
    Ciric: Maricka, Bosnia
    Vranjesevic: Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
    Wisniewski: Warsawa, Poland
    Starasinic: Krasinec, Slovenia
    Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
    Tóth: Nyírbéltek, Hungary

    I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 known families (TMRCA 2200 ybp)
    Vorobyev: Jaroslavl, Russia
    Lepeshov: Sloboda, Russia
    Karandin: Tver, Russia
    Mayorov: Iskozy Belarus
    Rogozin: Suhumnichi Russia
    Guzev: Voronez, Russia
    Akenfelds: Nikrace, Latvia
    Leszcyszyn: Odrzechowa, Poland
    Bogdanec: Mcensk, Russia
    Led: Sagun, Russia
    Yagovtsev: Krasnodar, Russia
    Vlasov: ? Russia
    Mazalov: Sovetskaya, Russia
    Voronin: Moscow Russia
    Sari: ?
    Lavrov: ?
    Chebotar: ?
    Litowczak: Smerek, Poland
    Dorogov: ?
    Yurkovets: ?
    Czerniechowski: Poland
    Pererva: Kazatskoye, Ukraina
    Borgelin: Terralampi Vihti, Finland
    N.N: Viljandi, Estland
    N.N. Ahtirsky, Ukraina
    N.N: Iasi, Romania
    N.N. Istanbul, Turkey.

    According this, I think, both of my two I2a-L621 roots are clearly slavic. There are no west european or germanic results.
    Greek-catholic - christian orthodox that switched their religion.
    Greek-catholic - Either Dacian or Gothic or Slavic or Celtic or Varangian/Scandinavian people from the area.

    Catholic - either West Germans, either Turkic people either West Slavs, either Hungarian people.

    TMRCA 1400 ybp seems to have been moved with Slavic migration from 600 AD.
    TMRCA 2200 ybp seems to either moved with Gothic or with Thracian/Dacian people.
    I would say, with Gothic people.
    For the simple reason that you have matches for this paternal line in Finland,Estonia and Latvia besides Slavic countries and Romania.
    That looks very Gothic and would confirm the theory that Goths actually came from Scandinavia.

    Hungarian people are not Huns, this is a confusion, they are Ugric people which migrated from westwards of Ural mountains and settled on current land of Hungary.
    In that land of Hungary were settled defeated goths according to the history before the migration of Hungarians.
    And is very likely that Dacian people were also living on the land of Hungary, when Goths were settled there.
    Maybe also some Huns, but according to physical resemblance Hungarians are mostly Central Europeans with some Ugric influence.
    Hungarians do not look as Central Asians.
    Hungarians should have carried N paternal lines, R1A paternal lines for sure.Even I1.
    Depending of the Ugric people, some have plenty of I1 like Sami people.
    I have not checked for all Ugric people.
    All Ugric people have clades of R1A.

  15. #265
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Dear Mihaitzateo!

    Yes I know, I have strong ortodox christian roots, but the greek catholics not switched their religion. Same liturgy, same article of faith as before. They only acknowledged the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church's majesty. And yes, maybe my direct paternal ancestors were dacians 2000 years ago.

    But I think the I2a-Y3118 is same slavic like the I2a-A1328. Because the goths (gutans) arrived the coast of the Black Sea 1800 ybp. This bloodline scattered 400 years earlier. At this time the goths lived in their homeland in Scandinavia. If this two bloodlines were goths, why are not any scandinavian or germanic relative family? Or any italian, north spanish, south french, where the goths finally been assimilated? My R1a-CTS1211-Y33-YP1701 ancestor family has two italian and a spanish genetic relative family. Because they are the real descendant of the goths, but nobody says: R1a-CTS1211 is not a slavic branch. It is. Just some of them merged in the goths and leave the Pontic steppe with the goths. But neither Y3118 or A1328 I do not find families in the territories where the goths were assimilated. That is the reason, why I think I2a-L621 is not a gothic bloodline. Our ancestor lived under gothic rule, in the II-IV. century AD, but he was not gothic origin.

    Of course the hungarians are not huns. The hungarian tribal alliance included finnugric, onogur, iranian, germanic and slavic people. This is the reason, why are they concluded blood-treaty with each other before they crossed the Carpathians. With the blood-treaty made them brothers. If they were real brothers, there would not be a need such contract. But among them lived real hunnic descendants, just like at today in Alsace, Yorkshire and Turkey lives hunnic descendant families. The Árpád dinasty were R1a-Z93 an indo-iranian (originally scythian?) family. But as I wrote, I can not find in my roots N, or R1a-Z93 ancestors. But I have a Q ancestor, and according to Maciamo, it was a hunnic haplogroup.

  16. #266
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    Well, no one says that Slavs existed 2200 ybp.
    I am telling about this I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 that is possible to have been moved with Gothic migration.
    I supposed that this Gothic migration lasted for some hundreds of years and was not taking place in just some years.
    Like Goths moved Southward, slowly, assimilating and mixing with the people as they moved Southwards.
    If I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 would have been moved with Dacians/Thracians migration, the question is, how it got up to Finland,Estonia and Latvia?
    I see that you have ancestors in Finland that do not have a Slavic family name.
    Borgelin, which is the match that you got in Finland, of I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 is actually a family name of Danish origins!
    Just found out now.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Gustav_Borgelin
    Which increases the chances that I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 was actually brought by Goths to Hungary.
    @Kuzmosi
    Many congratulations mate, it seems that you have just discovered a paternal that was spread by Goths with their migration!
    Your I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 might interest those people from Universities of Denmark so they start to get into arguments with their Nordic neighbors and start to argue that Goths were rather Danes and not Swedes.
    Could you kindly please send to important Universities from Denmark your findings about I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 and where it has matches?
    A simple email in which you could tell them about this paternal line and about the fact that TMRCA of this paternal line is 2200 years ago.
    And also, that you found a guy named Borgelin living in Finland having same paternal line.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 12-10-18 at 11:45.

  17. #267
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    Country: Hungary



    You just picked up the only germanic name from the list. Borgelin is really a german/scandinavian name, but all of the other name from the list (20) are slavic name. Except my Y3118 ancestors name: Kiss. It is a tipically hungarian name, but I don't say: the Y3118 would be a hungarian bloodline.

    Otherwise the name does not matter. I stay with my own ancestors:
    My name is Küzmös, the name is cuman (kipchak-turkish) but the Y chr show illyrian/thracian/dacian roots. EV13-Y81971
    My Dobi ancestors family name is absolutely hungarian, but the Y chr (R1b-U106-S22069) tipically germanic.
    My Béres ancestor's family name is hungarian too, but their Y chr (R1b-U152-S8172) is Hallstatt Celtic.
    My Szilágyi ancestor's family name is hungarian, but the Y chr (I1-FGC14412) is scandinavian/varangian.
    My Csehely ancestor's family name is slavic probably slovakian, but the Y chr (Q-YP1695) is Inner Asian, from the Kazah-Mongolian steppes.
    Or the Kiss family. Hungarian name (I2a-Y3118) but I'm saying, it is slavic/rusin, and you say: it is gothic.

    The family names are misleading, but the genes don't lie.

  18. #268
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    Well ok, all those persons from Russia bearing I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118 have Russian family names, but who tells they are not assimilated people that moved with the Goths in the lands of Russia?
    Gothic migration reached Dacia/Romania around 250 AD and should have reached Russia much earlier.
    Because the north of Russia is located near Baltic sea and near Scandinavia.

  19. #269
    Ned Stark the Boromir Fatherland's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Dear Mihaitzateo!

    Yes I know, I have strong ortodox christian roots, but the greek catholics not switched their religion. Same liturgy, same article of faith as before. They only acknowledged the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church's majesty. And yes, maybe my direct paternal ancestors were dacians 2000 years ago.

    But I think the I2a-Y3118 is same slavic like the I2a-A1328. Because the goths (gutans) arrived the coast of the Black Sea 1800 ybp. This bloodline scattered 400 years earlier. At this time the goths lived in their homeland in Scandinavia. If this two bloodlines were goths, why are not any scandinavian or germanic relative family? Or any italian, north spanish, south french, where the goths finally been assimilated? My R1a-CTS1211-Y33-YP1701 ancestor family has two italian and a spanish genetic relative family. Because they are the real descendant of the goths, but nobody says: R1a-CTS1211 is not a slavic branch. It is. Just some of them merged in the goths and leave the Pontic steppe with the goths. But neither Y3118 or A1328 I do not find families in the territories where the goths were assimilated. That is the reason, why I think I2a-L621 is not a gothic bloodline. Our ancestor lived under gothic rule, in the II-IV. century AD, but he was not gothic origin.

    Of course the hungarians are not huns. The hungarian tribal alliance included finnugric, onogur, iranian, germanic and slavic people. This is the reason, why are they concluded blood-treaty with each other before they crossed the Carpathians. With the blood-treaty made them brothers. If they were real brothers, there would not be a need such contract. But among them lived real hunnic descendants, just like at today in Alsace, Yorkshire and Turkey lives hunnic descendant families. The Árpád dinasty were R1a-Z93 an indo-iranian (originally scythian?) family. But as I wrote, I can not find in my roots N, or R1a-Z93 ancestors. But I have a Q ancestor, and according to Maciamo, it was a hunnic haplogroup.
    There has been 0 confirmed Scythian R1a-Z93 samples so far.

    The confirmed Scythian samples found have been R1b-L23.

  20. #270
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    Dear Mihaitzateo!

    Do you read this?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d-distribution

    At first: My first name: Imre, which is a hungarian version for the Emeric(us). And the Emerik is the later version of Amalrik. So I wear the name of one of the greatest gothic king.

    But for me, more likely the dacian origin, like the goth. When the roman legions defeated the dacians, the northern and the eastern dacian areas were not occupied. There were "free dacians" here. I think amongh them were so many L621 bloodlines. Some of them became germanic (goth, rugi, scirii, herul, victoval or gepid) but those, who stayed north and east from the Carpathians later became the ancestors of the slavs.

    So, the Y3118 is slavic, I still say. But earlier their ancestors were dacians, and later probably some of them with the goths traveled to the Balkans.

    Dear Fatherland!

    What is the scythian? They were lived a huge area, where tribes of different origins lived. So I think, the "scythian" is not a tribe, or a nation. Much more a culture, that linked the peoples of different origins. From Mongolia to Hungary lived "scythians" but they had very different DNA. As far as I know, the siberian scythians majority were R1a-Z93. (Pazirik)

    A couple of months ago, I talked to a pastu translator., and he said for me: The pastus and the hungarians are brothers. Both of them are the descendants of the scythians. The pastus are believed to have their ancestors coming from the north. Thosends of years ago, when the pastures began to dry up, their ancestors moved south. But the other half of the people, moved west.


  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Dear Mihaitzateo!

    Do you read this?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d-distribution

    At first: My first name: Imre, which is a hungarian version for the Emeric(us). And the Emerik is the later version of Amalrik. So I wear the name of one of the greatest gothic king.

    But for me, more likely the dacian origin, like the goth. When the roman legions defeated the dacians, the northern and the eastern dacian areas were not occupied. There were "free dacians" here. I think amongh them were so many L621 bloodlines. Some of them became germanic (goth, rugi, scirii, herul, victoval or gepid) but those, who stayed north and east from the Carpathians later became the ancestors of the slavs.

    So, the Y3118 is slavic, I still say. But earlier their ancestors were dacians, and later probably some of them with the goths traveled to the Balkans.


    Well I also think that a lot of Goths became later Slavs by assimilation.
    But Hungarians are Magyars,which is a ugric ethnicity.
    Later, because Hungarians and Austrians formed Habsburg empire, Hungarians became fully Central Europeans as ethnicity and same happened to the Czech people and Slovene people.
    So if we talk about ethnicity, Hungarians are some kind of Central European people.
    As the Czechs and Austrians and South Germans .

  22. #272
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Not exactly. My National Geographic Genographic project Regional Ancestry results:

    70% eastern europe
    24% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora
    2% Finland and Siberia

    First reference population: romanian, second: polish

    I sent a sample from my paternal grandfather's younger brother to the Genographic Project. (Of course he was EV13-Y81971, like me)The Regional Ancestry results:

    68% Eastern europe
    21% Great britain and Ireland
    10% Asia Minor

    First reference population: Russian, second Bulgarian.

    Hungarian reference population not exist in the Genographic Project.

    I sent another sample from my own DNA to the FamilyTreeDNA Family Finder. And the Ethnic makeup percentage results:

    East Europe: 62%
    West and Central Europe: 20 %
    Southeast Europe 15%
    Finland 2%
    Oceania: 2%
    Asia Minor 1%

    So I am (and my family) overwhelming east european. And it is true for my narrower home, the Southern Nyírség too. The modern hungarians has a very complex and different origin. Not just by region but by village. This is the reason, why not exist hungarian reference population. I think, the longest, largest and strongest genetic effect is the slavic for all Hungary.

  23. #273
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just my amateur opinion: FT DNA ethnic makeup map for East Europe include Lithuania, Poland, W Belarous, W Ukraine, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova. That was pre-Slavic, pre-Scythian and pre-Germanic ancient homeland of baltic-dacian people. Thracians were other people with heavy Dacian influence. Dacian was satem language very similar to today Lithuanian and very different to italo-celtic. Slavs formed later in the middle of this dacian-baltic continuum with the germanic and scytian component. I2a must have come to east from somewhere in France (probable celtic) via South Poland. When this I2a-din ancestor reached Poland there were no slaves there. I2a I believe was already in Bastarnae, Goths, Dacians and others before slavic migration. This map is not accurate.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cip View Post
    Just my amateur opinion: FT DNA ethnic makeup map for East Europe include Lithuania, Poland, W Belarous, W Ukraine, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova. That was pre-Slavic, pre-Scythian and pre-Germanic ancient homeland of baltic-dacian people. Thracians were other people with heavy Dacian influence. Dacian was satem language very similar to today Lithuanian and very different to italo-celtic. Slavs formed later in the middle of this dacian-baltic continuum with the germanic and scytian component. I2a must have come to east from somewhere in France (probable celtic) via South Poland. When this I2a-din ancestor reached Poland there were no slaves there. I2a I believe was already in Bastarnae, Goths, Dacians and others before slavic migration. This map is not accurate.
    That is one of the common sense theories about the Dacian language, that it was resembling Lithuanian.
    Glad to see someone noticed that thing.
    As another common sense thing, most Russian ethnic males are having most of their paternal lines originating in the Baltic area or in Scandinavia.
    Because is quite clear that N1C originated in Finland and in North Russia, most males are bearing N1C.
    It is a nasty thing when politics starts to mess into history and genetics and modify the history and genetics according to our current days politics.....
    Hard-core Swedes,Norwegians and Danes would not accept Finland as part of Scandinavia :) .
    Another politic nonsense....
    So if we are talking about Slavic Y DNA, maybe we should mention that R1A-Z280 originated into Baltic countries and together with N1C makes over 50% of the paternal lines of the Russian ethnic males.

  25. #275
    Ned Stark the Boromir Fatherland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cip View Post
    Just my amateur opinion: FT DNA ethnic makeup map for East Europe include Lithuania, Poland, W Belarous, W Ukraine, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova. That was pre-Slavic, pre-Scythian and pre-Germanic ancient homeland of baltic-dacian people. Thracians were other people with heavy Dacian influence. Dacian was satem language very similar to today Lithuanian and very different to italo-celtic. Slavs formed later in the middle of this dacian-baltic continuum with the germanic and scytian component. I2a must have come to east from somewhere in France (probable celtic) via South Poland. When this I2a-din ancestor reached Poland there were no slaves there. I2a I believe was already in Bastarnae, Goths, Dacians and others before slavic migration. This map is not accurate.
    Impossible. Look at the TMRCA of all the modern I2a-CTS10228 carriers, it spread from 1 single ancestor recently, all genetic evidence pointing from the Slavs.

    All of these populations you mention carried none of it.

    The same way I1 escaped from Central Europe in the Bronze Age, to Scandinavia, with 1 survivor breeding up there from 1100BC and spreading later.
    Every single I1-carrier in the world descends from that survivor of 3100 years of TMRCA.

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