Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 286

Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    272
    Points
    2,714
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,714, Level: 14
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 36
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.
    What I meant is how did you determine which subclades are Slavic? Did you look at current distributions, frequencies, subclade ages and TMRCA? Or did you also use medieval or ancient DNA from areas where Slavs might have lived?

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    272
    Points
    2,714
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,714, Level: 14
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 36
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: United States



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

    In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

    The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?
    German migrations preceded the Slavic one. In fact, it is often said most of the Slavs moved into the areas the Germanic tribes left open.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,704
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,704, Level: 26
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 446
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    German migrations preceded the Slavic one. In fact, it is often said most of the Slavs moved into the areas the Germanic tribes left open.
    Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    272
    Points
    2,714
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,714, Level: 14
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 36
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.
    If it was Germanic how do you explain the complete absence in Western Europe, Italy and its islands, even North Africa?

  5. #30
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.
    Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

    So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?

  6. #31
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.
    How on earth could you prove that a certain Y-DNA haplogroup is associated with the Slavic expansion by looking at Slavic AUTOSOMAL DNA? You know that Y-DNA does not necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry nor vice-versa, right? Also, AFAIK Maciamo associates just a specific subclade, I2a1b-CTS10228, with Slavs. Also, bear in mind that "being associated" is not a synyonym to "is owned by Slavs" nor to "is found exclusively in Slavs". It just means that people who spread the Slavic language and culture probably harbored a lot of that haplogroup, nothing else. People have always been absorbed by other cultures/languages/ethnic identities or shifted their own for many reasons, so there will always be at best a correlation, not a compulsory, absolutely certain relation between genetics and culture/language.

    P.S.: I see, you meant ancient DNA, though you used a terminology most used to refer to autosomal DNA (aDNA). Well, that would definitely settle the question once and for all, not just "be convincing". However, I definitely think we can look at the estimated age of spread of a certain specific clade of a haplogroup and its pattern of distribution, expansion and points of gradual dilution and make reasonable hypotheses. Nobody here pretends that these are fully fact-proven theories, but as far as hypotheses go Maciamo's are often pretty plausible and well substantiated.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,103
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,103, Level: 16
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 347
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

    So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?
    You dont really need to look in Circassian or Tatar population for Slavic Y-DNA or aDNA.To start from beginning, there was Slavic resettlement from Balkans by Byzantines in Asia minor,some of whom switched sides to the Arabs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor_Slavs

    Then there was Ottoman empire,where many "Slavs" in this case South-Slavs served as soldiers in the Janissaries,many of them reached to "grand vizier" title,that is the second man in the empire after the Sultan.After the Ottoman dissolution in the Balkans many Slavic speaking Muslims emigrated to Asia Minor,they are today Turks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhacir
    Muhacir, Macırlar, or Muhajir, is a term used to refer to an estimated 10 million Ottoman Muslim citizens, and their descendants born after the onset of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, (including Turks, Albanians, Bosniaks, Greek Muslims, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, and Pomaks(Slavic speaking Muslims mostly from Bulgaria) who emigrated to Anatolia from the late 18th century until the end of the 20th century, mainly to escape ongoing persecution in their homelands. Today, between a third and a quarter of Turkey's population are the descendants of these Muhacirs.

    Then you have the slave trade mostly of Slavs in middle ages continuing in the Ottoman period.
    Also you might check Crimean-Nogai raids into east Slavic lands,their main purpose was capture of slaves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...t_Slavic_lands
    One of the most famous wifes of the Sultan Suleiman and perhaps the most influental woman in Ottoman history,Hurrem Sultan or Roxelana was of "Ukrainian" descent,she was captured as slave.

  8. #33
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

    So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?
    It's possible but rather far-fetched since Turkey has a mixture of I2-CTS10228 and R1a-CTS1211, with slightly more of the former like in the Balkans. I don't think that there is much of either in Central Asia if we exclude recent Russian and Ukrainian settlements from the USSR era. Most of the R1a in Central Asia is Z93. Even in the Volga-Ural region the Tatars (who are Turkic) have hardly any Slavic Y-DNA, unlike their Uralic neighbours (Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts).
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  9. #34
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

    In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

    The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?
    It is not the whole of I1-Z63 that is found in the Balkans and Ukraine, but mostly the BY351 and S2078 branches, which are also found in Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy and Iberia. That follows perfectly the migration of the Goths.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,704
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,704, Level: 26
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 446
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is not the whole of I1-Z63 that is found in the Balkans and Ukraine, but mostly the BY351 and S2078 branches, which are also found in Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy and Iberia. That follows perfectly the migration of the Goths.
    S2078 is everywhere - too general to define by any group. There are some clear Gothic branches though like in the attached image. Other than using Yfull and FTDNA I have not seen good breakdowns of I1 subclade distributions by area.
    EasternZ63.PNG

    So the Goths left a good contingent behind in Slavic destined areas. The rates according to public FTDNA groups of Z63 in these areas is high.

    Sorry to digress

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,605
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,605, Level: 22
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 445
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Sweden



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    How on earth could you prove that a certain Y-DNA haplogroup is associated with the Slavic expansion by looking at Slavic AUTOSOMAL DNA? You know that Y-DNA does not necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry nor vice-versa, right? Also, AFAIK Maciamo associates just a specific subclade, I2a1b-CTS10228, with Slavs. Also, bear in mind that "being associated" is not a synyonym to "is owned by Slavs" nor to "is found exclusively in Slavs". It just means that people who spread the Slavic language and culture probably harbored a lot of that haplogroup, nothing else. People have always been absorbed by other cultures/languages/ethnic identities or shifted their own for many reasons, so there will always be at best a correlation, not a compulsory, absolutely certain relation between genetics and culture/language.

    P.S.: I see, you meant ancient DNA, though you used a terminology most used to refer to autosomal DNA (aDNA). Well, that would definitely settle the question once and for all, not just "be convincing". However, I definitely think we can look at the estimated age of spread of a certain specific clade of a haplogroup and its pattern of distribution, expansion and points of gradual dilution and make reasonable hypotheses. Nobody here pretends that these are fully fact-proven theories, but as far as hypotheses go Maciamo's are often pretty plausible and well substantiated.
    BTW: The Germans are in the same sub cluster as the Serbs, Moldavians, Hungarians, Croatians, Czechs and Ukrainians [1]. This closeness may be explained by the common origin of the ethnos enumerated and their migration from the first place of differentiation in Asia to Europe by a route other than the ancestors of the Russians who went to Europe via north Siberia. The ancestors of the Germans, and also the current central- European Slavic ethnos, migrated to Europe from Asia roughly following the same route that the Hun’s took earlier.
    https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc....php?aid=22649

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-17
    Posts
    53
    Points
    1,026
    Level
    8
    Points: 1,026, Level: 8
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 124
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    As far as i know the height is increasing towards highest concentration of I2a? By the "ancient population" do you mean before coming to Balkan?

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    322
    Points
    5,107
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,107, Level: 21
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Great Job Maciamo it sounds really OK and truthful! Respect :)

  14. #39
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,472
    Points
    56,878
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,878, Level: 73
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 172
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Wait, isn't R1a-Z92 a mostly Baltic clade of R1a, rather than Slavic? Also when it comes to R1a-CTS1211 (M558), much of it seems to be Baltic, while only R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 appear distinctly Slavic. It also seems to me that all 3 main subclades of R1a-M458 - L260, YP515 and L1029 - are Slavic, but this question will be resolved by ancient DNA:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Y-DNA-lineages

    Nevertheless, it is a very interesting map. Which areas have over 70% of Slavic Y-DNA?

  15. #40
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    You dont really need to look in Circassian or Tatar population for Slavic Y-DNA or aDNA.To start from beginning, there was Slavic resettlement from Balkans by Byzantines in Asia minor,some of whom switched sides to the Arabs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor_Slavs

    Then there was Ottoman empire,where many "Slavs" in this case South-Slavs served as soldiers in the Janissaries,many of them reached to "grand vizier" title,that is the second man in the empire after the Sultan.After the Ottoman dissolution in the Balkans many Slavic speaking Muslims emigrated to Asia Minor,they are today Turks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhacir
    Muhacir, Macırlar, or Muhajir, is a term used to refer to an estimated 10 million Ottoman Muslim citizens, and their descendants born after the onset of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, (including Turks, Albanians, Bosniaks, Greek Muslims, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, and Pomaks(Slavic speaking Muslims mostly from Bulgaria) who emigrated to Anatolia from the late 18th century until the end of the 20th century, mainly to escape ongoing persecution in their homelands. Today, between a third and a quarter of Turkey's population are the descendants of these Muhacirs.

    Then you have the slave trade mostly of Slavs in middle ages continuing in the Ottoman period.
    Also you might check Crimean-Nogai raids into east Slavic lands,their main purpose was capture of slaves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...t_Slavic_lands
    One of the most famous wifes of the Sultan Suleiman and perhaps the most influental woman in Ottoman history,Hurrem Sultan or Roxelana was of "Ukrainian" descent,she was captured as slave.
    Excellent points, but I didn't mean that there wasn't Slavic proper settlement in Anatolia, but rather that it may have been compounded by Slavic-related Turkified or "Caucasianized" populations that came since the Middle Ages from the steppes north of the Black Sea and Caucasus, including the Crimean Tatars who also enslaved so many East Slavs and were themselves in close contact with the Ottomans for many centuries. My point would just be an additional factor to explain why Turkey seems to have even more Slavic-related impact than Greece and Albania in the Balkans itself, directly neighboring Slavic-speaking populations (although it seems like those, Bulgarians and FYROM Macedonians, are among the least "genetically Slavic" but still Slavic-peaking populations).

  16. #41
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,472
    Points
    56,878
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,878, Level: 73
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 172
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs.
    The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

    But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.

  17. #42
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    S2078 is everywhere - too general to define by any group. There are some clear Gothic branches though like in the attached image. Other than using Yfull and FTDNA I have not seen good breakdowns of I1 subclade distributions by area.
    EasternZ63.PNG

    So the Goths left a good contingent behind in Slavic destined areas. The rates according to public FTDNA groups of Z63 in these areas is high.

    Sorry to digress
    Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).

  18. #43
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

    But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.
    Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.

  19. #44
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    681,298
    Level
    100
    Points: 681,298, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Wait, isn't R1a-Z92 a mostly Baltic clade of R1a, rather than Slavic? Also when it comes to R1a-CTS1211 (M558), much of it seems to be Baltic, while only R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 appear distinctly Slavic. It also seems to me that all 3 main subclades of R1a-M458 - L260, YP515 and L1029 - are Slavic, but this question will be resolved by ancient DNA:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Y-DNA-lineages

    Nevertheless, it is a very interesting map. Which areas have over 70% of Slavic Y-DNA?
    I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.

    The map is approximative at the regional level, especially in Poland, Belarus, Russia and Ukraine as regional data is still scarce. But Slavic Y-DNA appears to be over 70% among Bosniaks (71%) and Bosnian Croats (83%), eastern Poland (Masovia, Lesser Poland, Red Ruthenia) central Belorussians and in the Smolesnk region of Russia. Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    599
    Points
    5,914
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,914, Level: 22
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 136
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).
    Which branch of E-V13 you mean? For now only branch PH1246, L540 and S7461 does not exist in Albanians (or a minimum)

    http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/...E1b-V13new.jpg

    Polish branches of E-V13

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap

    Vlachs migrated all the way to Poland and over Carpathians, for now more branches of E-V13 exist in Slavic countries but we do not know if they come from the Balkans or are indigenous there.

    In the Diploma Andreanum issued by King Andrew II of Hungary in 1224, "silva blacorum et bissenorum" was given to the settlers. The Orthodox Vlachs spread further northward along the Carpathians to Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia and were granted autonomy under Ius Vlachonicum (Walachian law).[
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

  21. #46
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's possible but rather far-fetched since Turkey has a mixture of I2-CTS10228 and R1a-CTS1211, with slightly more of the former like in the Balkans. I don't think that there is much of either in Central Asia if we exclude recent Russian and Ukrainian settlements from the USSR era. Most of the R1a in Central Asia is Z93. Even in the Volga-Ural region the Tatars (who are Turkic) have hardly any Slavic Y-DNA, unlike their Uralic neighbours (Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts).
    I meant not the Central Asians, but the Turkified populations of the Pontic-Caspian steppe or originally coming from there, like Crimean Tatars and, before them, Khazars, Bulgars and Cumans/Kipchaks, just south of the purported Slavic homeland, probably arund North Ukraine/South Belarus, bordering on Southern Poland and Western Russia.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-02-17
    Posts
    54
    Points
    2,528
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,528, Level: 14
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.
    Maciamo,what are the calculations of "genome-wide"ancestry based on? If it is 23andme only,then the above conclusion of yours is right...What are the numbers for Serbia,Bulgaria and FYROM on the heatmap? 5-10...or 10-20% ? Seem somehow low...
    Last edited by td120; 03-05-18 at 21:16. Reason: clarif.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,103
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,103, Level: 16
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 347
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Excellent points, but I didn't mean that there wasn't Slavic proper settlement in Anatolia, but rather that it may have been compounded by Slavic-related Turkified or "Caucasianized" populations that came since the Middle Ages from the steppes north of the Black Sea and Caucasus, including the Crimean Tatars who also enslaved so many East Slavs and were themselves in close contact with the Ottomans for many centuries. My point would just be an additional factor to explain why Turkey seems to have even more Slavic-related impact than Greece and Albania in the Balkans itself, directly neighboring Slavic-speaking populations (although it seems like those, Bulgarians and FYROM Macedonians, are among the least "genetically Slavic" but still Slavic-peaking populations).
    It think that the more "northern" or north Slavic affinity of Anatolia than Greece or Albania,one of the main reason will be the slave trade of northern Slavs into Ottoman empire,if you have the time to read this you can see how many slaves were sold from those lands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...t_Slavic_lands



    Also i think that the Slavs that conquered the Balkans were not that much "northern" shifted even in the middle ages,that is of course my personal view.

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,704
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,704, Level: 26
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 446
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).
    Excellent insight. As for any clade with a "*", those could be completely divergent from the time of mutation. I hope to join YFull and the Z63 project there soon, if FTDNA would ever process my BigY (5 month wait now).

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    599
    Points
    5,914
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,914, Level: 22
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 136
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.

    The map is approximative at the regional level, especially in Poland, Belarus, Russia and Ukraine as regional data is still scarce. But Slavic Y-DNA appears to be over 70% among Bosniaks (71%) and Bosnian Croats (83%), eastern Poland (Masovia, Lesser Poland, Red Ruthenia) central Belorussians and in the Smolesnk region of Russia. Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.
    This is not so important but only research for the Bosniaks from Bosnia shows 58% of R1a+I2a.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm


    There is another research for the Bosniaks but I think that is only for one city (Tuzla)

    That's what I know from official research.

Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •