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Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    It think that the more "northern" or north Slavic affinity of Anatolia than Greece or Albania,one of the main reason will be the slave trade of northern Slavs into Ottoman empire,if you have the time to read this you can see how many slaves were sold from those lands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...t_Slavic_lands



    Also i think that the Slavs that conquered the Balkans were not that much "northern" shifted even in the middle ages,that is of course my personal view.
    Yes, you're right, that definitely makes perfect sense autosomally. This hypothesis would fit the observation that, in a Greece vs. Turkey comparison, there is a higher than expected level in Turkey only for the autosomal ancestry, and not nearly as much for the presence of Slavic-related Y-DNA haplogroups, too. It is notorious (and infamous) that male slaves tended to become eunuchs or be severely disencouraged, in all ways, to have even a modicum of reproductive chances, and the usual pattern, especially in the Middle East due to the specificities of its slavery system, is a much higher slave-derived Mt-DNA than Y-DNA impact, with the autosomal impact in between and mostly deriving from maternal contribution. Has anyone already analyzed the fine-scaled Mt-DNA makeup of modern Turkish (especially Northwestern Turkish) people to see if there is a higher Slavic-related % of Mt-DNA than Y-DNA? That would reinforce that slavery was a huge factor in this increased affinity with Eastern Europeans.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

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    Maciamo, these are ancient Proto-Balts rather than Proto-Slavs (Y-DNA calls from Genetiker):

    Turlojiske3 (1 sample), Lithuania, Bronze Age, 1010–800 BC, R1a-Z92>Y4459>YP617

    Kivutkalns (3 samples), Latvia, BA, 805–230 BC, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467

    =============

    Most of Slavic R1a-CTS1211, is under Y35>CTS3402 and YP343 subclades. This data shows that great majority of Slavic CTS1211 belongs to Y35 branch (and within Y35, great majority belongs to CTS3402 - only YP4278 doesn't) as well as YP343 branch. In my opinion, other branches of CTS1211 (also known as M558) are Non-Slavic, but Baltic:

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.
    Yes it can be hard to tell them apart.

    It would be easier to make a map showing Balto-Slavic Y-DNA (in such case you just have to count all of R1a-Z280 and you also have to add N1c-M2783 - which is the Baltic subclade of N1c - unless you count it as originally Uralic?).

    But deducting Baltic R1a only from Baltic countries creates an illusion that all of R1a in neighbouring Slavic countries is Non-Baltic and Slavic. This is not really the case - Russians, Belarusians and Poles also carry Non-Slavic Baltic lineages of R1a, because Northeastern Poland, Northern Belarus and Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Balts before the Slavic expansion - and they became assimilated into Slavic populations. Later, there was also the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

    All in all, Baltic R1a is 10% to 15% of Polish R1a, if we count all Z92 and CTS1211 other than CTS3402/YP343.

    See for example: http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

    It can also be calculated based on FTDNA Projects.

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    Is there any R1a-Z92 among South Slavic populations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.
    That's a problem indeed.

    Studies often have regional data, but they don't distinguish between subclades. And without distinguishing between subclades, it is hard to estimate the exact % of Slavic Y-DNA. Maybe I will try to calculate regional frequencies of main subclades based on FTDNA Projects.

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    One Belarusian user posted this on another forum:

    Belarusian Y-DNA data from the 2013 Rozhansky study (n=1088):

    R1a - 50.7%
    I2 - 18.5%
    N - 10.4%
    R1b - 5.7%
    I1 - 5.6%
    E1b1b - 4.1%
    J2 - 2.2%
    Other (G2a, J1, Q, T, etc.) - 2.8%

    It also seems that Belarusians have a high % of "Baltic" R1a-Z92:

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/



    This is consistent with Belarusian MyHeritage autosomal results I've seen.

    They tend to score a lot of "Baltic" in MyHeritage, around 30% or so.

    =====

    Western Russia, Bryansk and Smolensk (n=86), from the same user:

    R1a - 52.3%
    N - 16.3%
    I2 - 12.8%
    R1b - 4.6%
    I1 - 4.6%
    J2 - 4.6%
    E1b1b - 1.2%
    Other - 3.6%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Is there any R1a-Z92 among South Slavic populations?
    Yes for example in Bulgaria about 2%-3% of the men carry R1a-Z92 :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Yes for example in Bulgaria about 2%-3% of the men carry R1a-Z92 :)
    Only 3 subclades of Z92 can be associated with Slavic expansions:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Y-DNA-lineages

    Z92>Y4459>YP5520 (formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
    Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569 (formed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp)
    Z92>Z685>Z1907>CTS9551>YP5611 (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp)

    But they most likely come from assimilated (Slavicized) Balts, not Proto-Slavs. I guess that shortly before Slavic expansions, Slavs had contact with some Baltic groups and assimilated them. Or perhaps Slavs themselves are a subgroup of Balts.

    It is certain that there were close links between ancient Balts and Slavs but scholars debate the nature of those links.

    There are - by the way - even some deep subclades of N1c that appear uniquely Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    You are using confusing terms to support your theories. According to Coon who came up with the term Dinaric , Dinarics are a population with physical features that came as a result of mixing Mediterranean populations with European one at some point in European history. So according to his definition of Dinaricism, Gheg Albanians are 100% Dinarics, following with Bosnians, and other south Slavs. Dinaricism of South Slavs came as a result of their mixing with pre Albanian populations. Its not I2a who makes a person Dinaric, its Albanian markers,. Nice try in your part to sneak a lie but its not going to work. Slavs are not Dinarics. They got their dinaricism from others. North Italy is heavy Dinaric and they are not I2a. So, there are Dinarics in certain percentages in Levant, Turkey etc. So again be careful with terms.

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    ^^^ What the heck are you talking about?

    I did not call I2a "Din", and it was not called "Din" after any anthropological type, but after Dinaric Alps:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_Alps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.
    Ancient Romans and Greeks:

    "A research made by prof. G. Kron, university of Victoria, in more than 900 adult males skeletons found in the ancient Italian soil, between 500 BC and 500 AD, revealed that their average height was +/- 170 cm.

    Kron found the mean height of 927 Italian adult males from 500 BC to 500 AD to be 168.3 cm, with no significant trends in height based on region or date. Some isolated findings:

    146 individuals from Pontecagnano (4th-3rd c. BC), mean height 169.1 cm
    49 individuals from Herculaneum (various periods), mean height 169.1 cm
    67 individuals from Civitanova (various periods), mean height 169 cm
    60 individuals from Monte Casaia (various periods), mean height 167.8 cm

    Geoffrey Kron, "Anthropometry, Physical Anthropology, and the Reconstruction of Ancient Health, Nutrition, and Living Standards" (2005).

    Lawrence Angel estimated the height of Ancient Greek males as also around 170 cm."

    More data here:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Persians-Celts

    ======

    There is a study about height in Europe over time, based on 9477 skeletons (link):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Two_Millennia

    As you can see, average height fluctuated over time, it was not constant increase.

    ======

    I also found this data, it is for men only I think:

    Poland:

    11th century - 171 cm (sample size = 216 from Southern Poland)
    1880 - 167 cm
    1968 - 170,5 cm
    2004 - 177,5 cm
    2010 - 178,5 cm

    Norway:

    9th-11th centuries - 173 cm
    12th-14th centuries - 171 cm
    17th-18th centuries - 167 cm
    2nd half of 19th century - 170 cm
    Year 1930 - 172 cm
    2009 - 181,6 cm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    You are using confusing terms to support your theories. According to Coon who came up with the term Dinaric , Dinarics are a population with physical features that came as a result of mixing Mediterranean populations with European one at some point in European history. So according to his definition of Dinaricism, Gheg Albanians are 100% Dinarics, following with Bosnians, and other south Slavs. Dinaricism of South Slavs came as a result of their mixing with pre Albanian populations. Its not I2a who makes a person Dinaric, its Albanian markers,. Nice try in your part to sneak a lie but its not going to work. Slavs are not Dinarics. They got their dinaricism from others. North Italy is heavy Dinaric and they are not I2a. So, there are Dinarics in certain percentages in Levant, Turkey etc. So again be careful with terms.
    What Coon? It was Ken Nordtvedt.Nothing to do with anthroplogy.
    Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago: I2a2a Dinaric ... I2a2 (also called I-M423, includes "Dinaric", "Disles" and "Isles") I2a3 (now ... At this point, let us not forget the relationship between I2a and I2b in general. Basically ...
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=825&start=160

    Although Ken was able to use his modals to distinguish several groups within haplogroup I2a, (he called the largest groups Dinaric, Sardinian, Isles and Western), most of these groups did not have a SNP to identify them. And without an SNP, many scientists, genealogy testing companies etc. did not accept these groups as proven.
    http://i2aproject.blogspot.se/2013/1...-i2a-tree.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Is I2a1b Slavic?

    Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now

    1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin
    Sure it is, because I2-CTS1210228 pretty much doesn't exist west of Czech-Republic, obviously the root of the node exists in Loschbour and is considerably old in Europe. That's why it's linked to Slavic speakers. Most likely some of the Slavic tribes were pushed west from Asiatic groups invading eastern Europe, and moved from Ukraine into the Balkans and central Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.
    Just about everywhere in the Balkans is a I2a-Din hotspot. It has a minor frequency in NE Italy, and some regions of eastern Germany, again mostly linked to where people speak some sort of Slavic language.

    It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language.

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    I2a-Din could be originally Non-Slavic, but I think it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Slavs tend to be genetically intermediate between Balts and Germanics, and it's not impossible that they emerged from a mix between some Baltic tribe and - for example - Bastarnians (Bastarnae), perhaps with some Steppe Iranic elements also contributing. A lot of things about Slavic ethnogenesis are still disputed.

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    UI find very interesting the % in Baltic sea

    although nearby the Slavic high density,
    Historically nearby Slavic homeland
    linguistic connection as balto-Slavic

    Yet Baltic sea east of Poland
    shows very low % comparing with very south or western places,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Just about everywhere in the Balkans is a I2a-Din hotspot. It has a minor frequency in NE Italy, and some regions of eastern Germany, again mostly linked to where people speak some sort of Slavic language.

    It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language.
    "It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language."
    This is the same old nonsense.What do you have for evidence except the language (are there any I2a -languages)?Maybe some aDNA?
    Last edited by gyms; 05-05-18 at 09:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Ancient Romans and Greeks:

    "A research made by prof. G. Kron, university of Victoria, in more than 900 adult males skeletons found in the ancient Italian soil, between 500 BC and 500 AD, revealed that their average height was +/- 170 cm.

    Kron found the mean height of 927 Italian adult males from 500 BC to 500 AD to be 168.3 cm, with no significant trends in height based on region or date. Some isolated findings:

    146 individuals from Pontecagnano (4th-3rd c. BC), mean height 169.1 cm
    49 individuals from Herculaneum (various periods), mean height 169.1 cm
    67 individuals from Civitanova (various periods), mean height 169 cm
    60 individuals from Monte Casaia (various periods), mean height 167.8 cm

    Geoffrey Kron, "Anthropometry, Physical Anthropology, and the Reconstruction of Ancient Health, Nutrition, and Living Standards" (2005).

    Lawrence Angel estimated the height of Ancient Greek males as also around 170 cm."

    More data here:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Persians-Celts

    ======

    There is a study about height in Europe over time, based on 9477 skeletons (link):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Two_Millennia

    As you can see, average height fluctuated over time, it was not constant increase.

    ======

    I also found this data, it is for men only I think:

    Poland:

    11th century - 171 cm (sample size = 216 from Southern Poland)
    1880 - 167 cm
    1968 - 170,5 cm
    2004 - 177,5 cm
    2010 - 178,5 cm

    Norway:

    9th-11th centuries - 173 cm
    12th-14th centuries - 171 cm
    17th-18th centuries - 167 cm
    2nd half of 19th century - 170 cm
    Year 1930 - 172 cm
    2009 - 181,6 cm
    I think the perception of Gauls and Germanics as tall may have had more to do with, first of all, very broad generalizations based on some outliers (mainly distinguished warriors), and secondly and most importantly not exactly due to genetics, but to lifestyle, as Greeks and Romans as a whole were heavily agriculturalist peoples, and the "barbarians" to their north still led a more "natural" lifestyle with much more stock breeding, hunting and gathering coupled with agriculture. There are several indications that in general farmer peoples, especially in very populated (= less resources per capita) regions, were shorter than pastoralist or hunter-gatherer people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I2a-Din could be originally Non-Slavic, but I think it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Slavs tend to be genetically intermediate between Balts and Germanics, and it's not impossible that they emerged from a mix between some Baltic tribe and - for example - Bastarnians (Bastarnae), perhaps with some Steppe Iranic elements also contributing. A lot of things about Slavic ethnogenesis are still disputed.
    What do you think about the assumption - I've read it once - that the Venetic people (possibly Italic, possibly an independent IE branch related to Italic and also a bit to Germanic) of Italy had also something to do with the similarly named Veneti/Venedi peoples to their north (I think somewhere in or near Poland), and could've also been absorbed and contributed to the Slavic expansion? I've often wondered about what specific language were natively (pre-Celtic/Germanic/Slavic expansion) spoken between roughly the Elbe and Vistula. The Baltic languages spoken there seem to have come from a more easterly source. Some have speculated about a certain Temematic language (could it, if it really existed, have been related to the controversial Venetic and Liburnian languages of North Italy/Northwestern Balkans?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What do you think about the assumption - I've read it once - that the Venetic people (possibly Italic, possibly an independent IE branch related to Italic and also a bit to Germanic) of Italy had also something to do with the similarly named Veneti/Venedi peoples to their north (I think somewhere in or near Poland), and could've also been absorbed and contributed to the Slavic expansion? I've often wondered about what specific language were natively (pre-Celtic/Germanic/Slavic expansion) spoken between roughly the Elbe and Vistula. The Baltic languages spoken there seem to have come from a more easterly source. Some have speculated about a certain Temematic language (could it, if it really existed, have been related to the controversial Venetic and Liburnian languages of North Italy/Northwestern Balkans?).
    Vistula Veneti could probably be also the Balts in my opinion,Jordanes is rather misintepreted by modern historians with a connection to Slavs,he is saying the the Veneti that is in his time are chiefly called Sclaveni or Antes.
    This are his words
    “Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.


    The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (…) The Antes, (…) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days’ journey apart.”
    Noviodunum mentioned by Jordanes is Isaccea in Romania Dobruja region,Danaster river Dniester,and Danaper will be Dnieper.

    Some kind of map on the internet perhaps based on Jordanes source.


    12th-century Polish chronicler Wincenty Kadłubek Latinised the rivername Vistula as Vandalus, a form presumably influenced by Lithuanian vanduõ 'water,in my opinion could be connected to names of Vandals,Wends etc.

    You can find in Baltic lands city like Ventspils,river Venta,Wenden old name of town Cēsis.
    Still can be a connection to Lithuanian "vanduo" for water,while in Slavic is "voda".
    Last edited by Milan.M; 05-05-18 at 00:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.
    Kuschniarevich et al. 2015 estimated Slavic ethnogenesis at around 3500-2500 years ago:

    (...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

    They also estimated first divisions of Proto-Slavs into branches at around 1900 years ago:

    "(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

    As for R1a, I did some research and it seems that Balts also have a fair share of R1a-CTS3402. I think it will be extremely difficult to distinguish Slavic from Baltic R1a subclades, we would have to split hairs and count percentages of deep subclades.

    I'm not sure if it helps, but here are some FTDNA kits with ancestry from East Prussia with R1a:

    1. Subclades common among East Balts:

    Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

    German kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
    German kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
    German kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520
    Polonized German kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
    German (?)* kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258
    German kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>Y P5223
    German kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915
    Unknown kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619
    Unknown kit N43077 - Z92+
    Polish kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335
    Polish kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
    Polish kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078
    Polish kit E4688 - Z92+

    *Pallaschke, sounds German but could be Germanized of Slavic origin.

    2. Subclades common among Kashubians:

    Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

    German kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP389>YP4669
    German kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243
    Polish kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP269>Y6956>L670

    3. Subclades common among East Slavs:

    Surname kit number R1a subclade:

    Czeranna kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
    Skubinna* kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846
    Glass kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

    *Apparently a Lithuanian surname, although they came from Russia?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skubinna
    there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569.

    Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo.

    As far as I can tell from the church records going back to the 1730, a few of my Skubinna relatives were still using Lithuanian names as late as the 1840s. None after that date. My paternal Great-Grandfather came to the U.S.A. in 1885. He only spoke German, but because he originally engaged in timbering in Michigan he had Swedish employees and learned that language. In 1892, he move to North Dakota and became a prosperous rancher. He hired fellow Germans and a number of Russian men and women to work for him raising wheat. So he also learned enough Russian to be able to work with them.
    4. Other samples of R1a from East Prussia:

    Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

    Polish kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
    Jewish? (Rosenbaum) kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y2035 9
    German kit 145992 - M458+
    Germanized Slavic kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
    Polish kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+
    German kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515
    Germanized Slavic kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314
    Polish kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
    German kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
    German kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
    Germanized Slavic kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1 448
    Polish kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1 448>FGC19273
    Polish kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
    Polish kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

    Low resolution of Y-SNPs:

    Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

    German kit E6115 - M512+
    Polish kit E10941 - M198+
    German kit E2656 - M198+
    German kit N2864 - M417+
    German kit 145455 - M417+

    =====

    Haplogroup I2a in East Prussia, here mostly surnames of Slavic origin:

    kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
    kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
    kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
    kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

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    We don't know what subclades of R1a did West Balts (including Old Prussians) have, because they are extinct as an ethnicity. Of course their descendants are still alive, but not all of R1a in East Prussia was native to West Balts, there were also immigrant R1a lineages.

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    There might be more broad "Balto-Slavic" connection in later times to Venethi or the later Wends clearly reffer to Slavs,but i will be cautious to ascribe direct link between Venethi and medieval Sclaveni or Slavs in general,especialy if we take this account of Jordanes only.

    Wends was term used by Germans for their Slavic neighbors,Finns i think still call Russians by similar name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Or perhaps Slavs themselves are a subgroup of Balts.
    There is guy here "qtr" who also claims that Slavs are somehow the subgroup of Balts, based on nothing. The term "Balt" today means Letto-Lithuanian aka Eastern Balts. Do you really think that modern Slavs are subgroup of East Balts (Letto-Lithuanians) ?

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