New map of Slavic Y-DNA

Maciamo said:
Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.
Click to expand...

Ancient Romans and Greeks:

"A research made by prof. G. Kron, university of Victoria, in more than 900 adult males skeletons found in the ancient Italian soil, between 500 BC and 500 AD, revealed that their average height was +/- 170 cm.

Kron found the mean height of 927 Italian adult males from 500 BC to 500 AD to be 168.3 cm, with no significant trends in height based on region or date. Some isolated findings:

146 individuals from Pontecagnano (4th-3rd c. BC), mean height 169.1 cm
49 individuals from Herculaneum (various periods), mean height 169.1 cm
67 individuals from Civitanova (various periods), mean height 169 cm
60 individuals from Monte Casaia (various periods), mean height 167.8 cm

Geoffrey Kron, "Anthropometry, Physical Anthropology, and the Reconstruction of Ancient Health, Nutrition, and Living Standards" (2005).

Lawrence Angel estimated the height of Ancient Greek males as also around 170 cm."

More data here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...e-height-of-the-Ancient-Greeks-Persians-Celts

======

There is a study about height in Europe over time, based on 9477 skeletons (link):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237659587_Living_in_Europe_During_the_Last_Two_Millennia

As you can see, average height fluctuated over time, it was not constant increase.

======

I also found this data, it is for men only I think:

Poland:

11th century - 171 cm (sample size = 216 from Southern Poland)
1880 - 167 cm
1968 - 170,5 cm
2004 - 177,5 cm
2010 - 178,5 cm

Norway:

9th-11th centuries - 173 cm
12th-14th centuries - 171 cm
17th-18th centuries - 167 cm
2nd half of 19th century - 170 cm
Year 1930 - 172 cm
2009 - 181,6 cm
 
Tutkun Arnaut said:
You are using confusing terms to support your theories. According to Coon who came up with the term Dinaric , Dinarics are a population with physical features that came as a result of mixing Mediterranean populations with European one at some point in European history. So according to his definition of Dinaricism, Gheg Albanians are 100% Dinarics, following with Bosnians, and other south Slavs. Dinaricism of South Slavs came as a result of their mixing with pre Albanian populations. Its not I2a who makes a person Dinaric, its Albanian markers,. Nice try in your part to sneak a lie but its not going to work. Slavs are not Dinarics. They got their dinaricism from others. North Italy is heavy Dinaric and they are not I2a. So, there are Dinarics in certain percentages in Levant, Turkey etc. So again be careful with terms.
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What Coon? It was Ken Nordtvedt.Nothing to do with anthroplogy.
Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago: I2a2a Dinaric ... I2a2 (also called I-M423, includes "Dinaric", "Disles" and "Isles") I2a3 (now ... At this point, let us not forget the relationship between I2a and I2b in general. Basically ...
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=825&start=160

Although Ken was able to use his modals to distinguish several groups within haplogroup I2a, (he called the largest groups Dinaric, Sardinian, Isles and Western), most of these groups did not have a SNP to identify them. And without an SNP, many scientists, genealogy testing companies etc. did not accept these groups as proven.
http://i2aproject.blogspot.se/2013/12/from-2010-updated-haplogroup-i2a-tree.html
 
gyms said:
Is I2a1b Slavic?

Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...roup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now

1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin
​
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Sure it is, because I2-CTS1210228 pretty much doesn't exist west of Czech-Republic, obviously the root of the node exists in Loschbour and is considerably old in Europe. That's why it's linked to Slavic speakers. Most likely some of the Slavic tribes were pushed west from Asiatic groups invading eastern Europe, and moved from Ukraine into the Balkans and central Europe.
 
I1a3_Young said:
Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.
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Just about everywhere in the Balkans is a I2a-Din hotspot. It has a minor frequency in NE Italy, and some regions of eastern Germany, again mostly linked to where people speak some sort of Slavic language.

It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language.
 
I2a-Din could be originally Non-Slavic, but I think it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Slavs tend to be genetically intermediate between Balts and Germanics, and it's not impossible that they emerged from a mix between some Baltic tribe and - for example - Bastarnians (Bastarnae), perhaps with some Steppe Iranic elements also contributing. A lot of things about Slavic ethnogenesis are still disputed.
 
UI find very interesting the % in Baltic sea

although nearby the Slavic high density,
Historically nearby Slavic homeland
linguistic connection as balto-Slavic

Yet Baltic sea east of Poland
shows very low % comparing with very south or western places,
 
Aaron1981 said:
Just about everywhere in the Balkans is a I2a-Din hotspot. It has a minor frequency in NE Italy, and some regions of eastern Germany, again mostly linked to where people speak some sort of Slavic language.

It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language.
Click to expand...

"It is one of the few haplogroups that is clearly linked to a group of people based on language."
This is the same old nonsense.What do you have for evidence except the language (are there any I2a -languages)?Maybe some aDNA?
 
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Tomenable said:
Ancient Romans and Greeks:

"A research made by prof. G. Kron, university of Victoria, in more than 900 adult males skeletons found in the ancient Italian soil, between 500 BC and 500 AD, revealed that their average height was +/- 170 cm.

Kron found the mean height of 927 Italian adult males from 500 BC to 500 AD to be 168.3 cm, with no significant trends in height based on region or date. Some isolated findings:

146 individuals from Pontecagnano (4th-3rd c. BC), mean height 169.1 cm
49 individuals from Herculaneum (various periods), mean height 169.1 cm
67 individuals from Civitanova (various periods), mean height 169 cm
60 individuals from Monte Casaia (various periods), mean height 167.8 cm

Geoffrey Kron, "Anthropometry, Physical Anthropology, and the Reconstruction of Ancient Health, Nutrition, and Living Standards" (2005).

Lawrence Angel estimated the height of Ancient Greek males as also around 170 cm."

More data here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...e-height-of-the-Ancient-Greeks-Persians-Celts

======

There is a study about height in Europe over time, based on 9477 skeletons (link):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237659587_Living_in_Europe_During_the_Last_Two_Millennia

As you can see, average height fluctuated over time, it was not constant increase.

======

I also found this data, it is for men only I think:

Poland:

11th century - 171 cm (sample size = 216 from Southern Poland)
1880 - 167 cm
1968 - 170,5 cm
2004 - 177,5 cm
2010 - 178,5 cm

Norway:

9th-11th centuries - 173 cm
12th-14th centuries - 171 cm
17th-18th centuries - 167 cm
2nd half of 19th century - 170 cm
Year 1930 - 172 cm
2009 - 181,6 cm
Click to expand...

I think the perception of Gauls and Germanics as tall may have had more to do with, first of all, very broad generalizations based on some outliers (mainly distinguished warriors), and secondly and most importantly not exactly due to genetics, but to lifestyle, as Greeks and Romans as a whole were heavily agriculturalist peoples, and the "barbarians" to their north still led a more "natural" lifestyle with much more stock breeding, hunting and gathering coupled with agriculture. There are several indications that in general farmer peoples, especially in very populated (= less resources per capita) regions, were shorter than pastoralist or hunter-gatherer people.
 
Tomenable said:
I2a-Din could be originally Non-Slavic, but I think it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Slavs tend to be genetically intermediate between Balts and Germanics, and it's not impossible that they emerged from a mix between some Baltic tribe and - for example - Bastarnians (Bastarnae), perhaps with some Steppe Iranic elements also contributing. A lot of things about Slavic ethnogenesis are still disputed.
Click to expand...

What do you think about the assumption - I've read it once - that the Venetic people (possibly Italic, possibly an independent IE branch related to Italic and also a bit to Germanic) of Italy had also something to do with the similarly named Veneti/Venedi peoples to their north (I think somewhere in or near Poland), and could've also been absorbed and contributed to the Slavic expansion? I've often wondered about what specific language were natively (pre-Celtic/Germanic/Slavic expansion) spoken between roughly the Elbe and Vistula. The Baltic languages spoken there seem to have come from a more easterly source. Some have speculated about a certain Temematic language (could it, if it really existed, have been related to the controversial Venetic and Liburnian languages of North Italy/Northwestern Balkans?).
 
Ygorcs said:
What do you think about the assumption - I've read it once - that the Venetic people (possibly Italic, possibly an independent IE branch related to Italic and also a bit to Germanic) of Italy had also something to do with the similarly named Veneti/Venedi peoples to their north (I think somewhere in or near Poland), and could've also been absorbed and contributed to the Slavic expansion? I've often wondered about what specific language were natively (pre-Celtic/Germanic/Slavic expansion) spoken between roughly the Elbe and Vistula. The Baltic languages spoken there seem to have come from a more easterly source. Some have speculated about a certain Temematic language (could it, if it really existed, have been related to the controversial Venetic and Liburnian languages of North Italy/Northwestern Balkans?).
Click to expand...
Vistula Veneti could probably be also the Balts in my opinion,Jordanes is rather misintepreted by modern historians with a connection to Slavs,he is saying the the Veneti that is in his time are chiefly called Sclaveni or Antes.
This are his words
“Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.


The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (…) The Antes, (…) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days’ journey apart.”
Click to expand...
Noviodunum mentioned by Jordanes is Isaccea in Romania Dobruja region,Danaster river Dniester,and Danaper will be Dnieper.

Some kind of map on the internet perhaps based on Jordanes source.
mapa.png


12th-century Polish chronicler Wincenty Kadłubek Latinised the rivername Vistula as Vandalus, a form presumably influenced by Lithuanian vanduõ 'water,in my opinion could be connected to names of Vandals,Wends etc.

You can find in Baltic lands city like Ventspils,river Venta,Wenden old name of town Cēsis.
Still can be a connection to Lithuanian "vanduo" for water,while in Slavic is "voda".
 
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Maciamo said:
Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.
Click to expand...

Kuschniarevich et al. 2015 estimated Slavic ethnogenesis at around 3500-2500 years ago:

(...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

They also estimated first divisions of Proto-Slavs into branches at around 1900 years ago:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

As for R1a, I did some research and it seems that Balts also have a fair share of R1a-CTS3402. I think it will be extremely difficult to distinguish Slavic from Baltic R1a subclades, we would have to split hairs and count percentages of deep subclades.

I'm not sure if it helps, but here are some FTDNA kits with ancestry from East Prussia with R1a:

1. Subclades common among East Balts:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
German kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
German kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520
Polonized German kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
German (?)* kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258
German kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>Y P5223
German kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915
Unknown kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619
Unknown kit N43077 - Z92+
Polish kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335
Polish kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
Polish kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078
Polish kit E4688 - Z92+

*Pallaschke, sounds German but could be Germanized of Slavic origin.

2. Subclades common among Kashubians:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP389>YP4669
German kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243
Polish kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP269>Y6956>L670

3. Subclades common among East Slavs:

Surname kit number R1a subclade:

Czeranna kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
Skubinna* kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846
Glass kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

*Apparently a Lithuanian surname, although they came from Russia?:

Skubinna said:
there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569.

Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo.

As far as I can tell from the church records going back to the 1730, a few of my Skubinna relatives were still using Lithuanian names as late as the 1840s. None after that date. My paternal Great-Grandfather came to the U.S.A. in 1885. He only spoke German, but because he originally engaged in timbering in Michigan he had Swedish employees and learned that language. In 1892, he move to North Dakota and became a prosperous rancher. He hired fellow Germans and a number of Russian men and women to work for him raising wheat. So he also learned enough Russian to be able to work with them.
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4. Other samples of R1a from East Prussia:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

Polish kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
Jewish? (Rosenbaum) kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359
German kit 145992 - M458+
Germanized Slavic kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
Polish kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+
German kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515
Germanized Slavic kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314
Polish kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
German kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
German kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
Germanized Slavic kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448
Polish kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
Polish kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
Polish kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

Low resolution of Y-SNPs:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit E6115 - M512+
Polish kit E10941 - M198+
German kit E2656 - M198+
German kit N2864 - M417+
German kit 145455 - M417+

=====

Haplogroup I2a in East Prussia, here mostly surnames of Slavic origin:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)
 
We don't know what subclades of R1a did West Balts (including Old Prussians) have, because they are extinct as an ethnicity. Of course their descendants are still alive, but not all of R1a in East Prussia was native to West Balts, there were also immigrant R1a lineages.
 
There might be more broad "Balto-Slavic" connection in later times to Venethi or the later Wends clearly reffer to Slavs,but i will be cautious to ascribe direct link between Venethi and medieval Sclaveni or Slavs in general,especialy if we take this account of Jordanes only.

Wends was term used by Germans for their Slavic neighbors,Finns i think still call Russians by similar name.
 
Tomenable said:
Or perhaps Slavs themselves are a subgroup of Balts.
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There is guy here "qtr" who also claims that Slavs are somehow the subgroup of Balts, based on nothing. The term "Balt" today means Letto-Lithuanian aka Eastern Balts. Do you really think that modern Slavs are subgroup of East Balts (Letto-Lithuanians) ?
 
Maciamo said:
Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.
Click to expand...

In the past 100 years, height change in Europe has been significant. Especially in Nothern Europe.
european-height.jpg
I never understood it. And I still don't.
It seems for the first time in 18,000 years, human height in those regions is what it once was. But of course, there is limited data to go by.
human-heights-over-the-long-run.jpg
 
Milan.M said:
There might be more broad "Balto-Slavic" connection in later times to Venethi or the later Wends clearly reffer to Slavs,but i will be cautious to ascribe direct link between Venethi and medieval Sclaveni or Slavs in general,especialy if we take this account of Jordanes only.
Wends was term used by Germans for their Slavic neighbors,Finns i think still call Russians by similar name.
Click to expand...
The only wends are the Veleti tribe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
The Venedi are not Veleti, they are west -baltic people that later became known as the warmians .............top right corner of map below
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg
 
It is also related to nutrition, environmental factors, living standards, etc. - not just to DNA:

"Pork protein has the biggest additive effect, when combined with dairy proteins (r = 0.82; p < 0.001), followed by protein from eggs (r = 0.81) and potatoes (r = 0.81). The correlation reaches r = 0.84, when potatoes are added to dairy and pork. The highest r-value (r = 0.85) was achieved via the combination of proteins from dairy, pork, beef, eggs and potatoes (‘highly correlated proteins’). The strength of this relationship is visually impressive (Fig. 8). ‘Highly correlated proteins’ are also the strongest correlate of male height (r = 0.85)"

1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr8.jpg


"Other highly significant nutritional correlates of male stature in 49 non-European countries are total energy intake (r = 0.70; p < 0.001) (Appendix Fig. 9), rice protein (r = −0.65; p < 0.001) and wheat protein (r = 0.62; p < 0.001) (Fig. 7). Rice is the main source of protein in tropical Asia (particularly in Laos, Cambodia and Bangladesh; >30 g/day), which is where we encounter extremely small height means of ∼162–168 cm. The level of rice protein consumption is quite high even in Japan, China and both North and South Korea (>10 g/day). Remarkably, wheat protein correlates with male stature negatively in Europe (r = −0.68; p < 0.001), but positively outside Europe."

1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr7.jpg


Trends in the consumption of animal protein in 14 countries between 1961 and 2011, compared with the Netherlands:

1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr9.jpg
 
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