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Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its possible tho, i dont know for 23andme. Here you can see a quick look at Serbian forum autosomal results
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=603.0

    After page 6, its updated version of FTDNA my origins.
    Less then 30% East is very rare among them. + I believe that Serbs (especially Krajina, Republika srpska and South Serbs ), Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have highest impact of Southeast because of Vlach (Roman leftovers) and Albanian influence. While Bosnjaks (Muslims and Catholics), Slovens and Croats should have even less Southeast and more East.

    However, after arrival on Balkan, their genetics is being enriched with Southeast components in compare to East and North Slavs.
    So except for Slavic element, they for sure have Greko Illyrian or Vlach part in their genetics displayed as Southeast.
    Also later, many of it comes directly from Albanians, especially in Montenegro and South Serbia where assimilation of Albanians is taking place as we speak.
    Krajina Serbs are autosomally the most northern shifted Serbs.
    Among Bosnian and Krajina Serbs R1a is stronger than E-V13, and among Serbs from Serbia R1a and E-V13 are pretty elevated.

    Family finder of 4 Serbs for comparation. One guy is from Lika, one is from Northern Dalmatia, one from Sarajevo (Bosnia) and one from Čačak (Western Serbia)

    Serb from Lika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika



    Serb from Northern Dalmatia (Gornji Karin) https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornji_Karin



    Serb from Sarajevo



    ​Serb from Čačak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Čačak


    Guy from Lika got 80% East Europe and he is a pure Serb, all guys are pure Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Krajina Serbs are autosomally the most northern shifted Serbs.
    Among Bosnian and Krajina Serbs R1a is stronger than E-V13, and among Serbs from Serbia R1a and E-V13 are pretty elevated.

    Family finder of 4 Serbs for comparation. One guy is from Lika, one is from Northern Dalmatia, one from Sarajevo (Bosnia) and one from Čačak (Western Serbia)

    Serb from Lika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika



    Serb from Northern Dalmatia (Gornji Karin) https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornji_Karin



    Serb from Sarajevo



    ​Serb from Čačak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Čačak


    Guy from Lika got 80% East Europe and he is a pure Serb, all guys are pure Serbs.
    Very intersting results, @Bachus. It seems that both guys from Croatia have more East Europe then Southeast Europe ancestry, while the Bosnian and West Serbian have more Southeast Europe than East Europe ancestry.

    What is your comment on that?

    You mentioned that all of them are "pure" Serbs? What does that excatly mean? Are there also "non-pure" Serbs and where do they live?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Very intersting results, @Bachus. It seems that both guys from Croatia have more East Europe then Southeast Europe ancestry, while the Bosnian and West Serbian have more Southeast Europe than East Europe ancestry.

    What is your comment on that?

    You mentioned that all of them are "pure" Serbs? What does that excatly mean? Are there also "non-pure" Serbs and where do they live?
    Their ancestors considered themselves for Serbs from what they know.
    They don't have recent non-Serbian ancestors such as Russian grandomther, German grandmother, Croatian grandmother, Albanian grandmother, Hungarian great-grandmother...

    Serbs from Bosnia an Croatia shifted more northern autosomally than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrion, and I suppose because of that guy from Lika have more East Europe than guy from Čačak.

    Average K12b for Prečani (Serbs from BiH and Croatia), Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins (from 2015)




    Срби СРБ = Serbs from Serbiа
    Срб Пречани = Serbs from BiH and Croatia
    Црногорци = Montenegrins

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Their ancestors considered themselves for Serbs from what they know.
    They don't have recent non-Serbian ancestors such as Russian grandomther, German grandmother, Croatian grandmother, Albanian grandmother, Hungarian great-grandmother...
    OK, I see what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbs from Bosnia an Croatia shifted more northern autosomally than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrion, and I suppose because of that guy from Lika have more East Europe than guy from Čačak.
    That's been already seen in some scientific papers too. Being "shifted more northern" they are close to Croats.

    It is the actual historiography which believes that Orthodox Serbs (then commonly called Vlachs) arrived to Croatia and Bosnia during the Ottoman invasion from the territory of medieval Serbia. However, unlike e. g. Molise Croats, who moved to Italy in the same historical period and are still genetically distinguishable from Italians, the so-called “western” Serbs barely show any noticeable genetic difference comparing to the Croat majority.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 16-06-18 at 01:08.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Krajina Serbs are autosomally the most northern shifted Serbs.
    Among Bosnian and Krajina Serbs R1a is stronger than E-V13, and among Serbs from Serbia R1a and E-V13 are pretty elevated.

    Family finder of 4 Serbs for comparation. One guy is from Lika, one is from Northern Dalmatia, one from Sarajevo (Bosnia) and one from Čačak (Western Serbia)

    Serb from Lika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika



    Serb from Northern Dalmatia (Gornji Karin) https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornji_Karin



    Serb from Sarajevo



    ​Serb from Čačak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Čačak


    Guy from Lika got 80% East Europe and he is a pure Serb, all guys are pure Serbs.



    Hello there. Why you send me PM that Krajina Serbs are not Vlachs? Anyways, i didnt even realize i was quoted here, so good that you did or i probably would not see it. I dont see how your post argues with anything that i said except for Krajina Serbs autosomal results? Maciamo was claiming that South Slavs have 10 - 20% East European / Balto Slavic autosomal DNA, while i said that 10 - 20 % is very rare among them (almost unheard of), what is more typical is 50 - 70 per cent of East European and Balto-Slavic genetics. And the rest should be Southeast that should be Greko Illyrian and native Vlach (E-v13, R1b, J2b2) impact. (I forgot to mention also other clearly foreign Vlach elements like Sephardic, West Middle East, but possibly Asia Minor so Anatolian...)

    Then i also said that Krajina Serbs, but also RS Serbs, South Serbs, Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have more Southeast in compare to other Slavs because of Vlach / Albanian / Native influence. Even tho i understand that first result is from Krajina example with very high East (80%) and low Southeast (14%) that is only one of groups i mentioned, dont forget others - RS Serbs, South Serbs, Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's. This 80% East Krajina example can be explained thru this personal line mixing for few centuries with pure (high East) Slavic woman, therefore washing out previous autosomal genetic components. Also each person pulls specific genes therefore we cant base entire Krajina on one example. This one must be among the highest Easts in project. But then again what gives him away is 3% Sephardic and 2% West Asian. Which is clearly Palestino Vlach signal and goes together with his Palestino Vlach Ydna, which im sure confirms his Vlach origin.

    However at both Krajina and Cacak (Cacak-Montenegro zone) samples we can see very nice portion of Sephardic (Which means Jewish, Palestine, Lebanese cluster), and in some percentage West Asian again. In these both regions are two hot spots of J2-M205, so therefore Middle Eastern Vlach elements can still be seen even tho after Byzantine times of arrival many years have passed. But also higher Balkan E-v13 which would clearly carry Southeast genetics

    I know that all these samples you posted are J2-M205 Vlachs who today think they are Serbs, but what is interesting to me is that even tho they mix for centuries with Slavic or native woman, most of them still carries very small portion of their original Middle Eastern native autosomal genetics. Also what i find interesting is that others are barely reaching 50% of East, and one of them has only 30% of East which makes me to almost question his Serbian nationality.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Their ancestors considered themselves for Serbs from what they know.
    They don't have recent non-Serbian ancestors such as

    They maybe dont have recent memories, but historically, speaking of Krajina Serbs (Where J2-M205 and E-v13 is higher then in compare with other South Slavs), even after Slavicization, they still separated themselves from Slavs and Serbs, not knowing their true origin, they called themselves Vlachs. Thats why i think it would be fair and honest if original Krajina Serbs would admit and consider themselves as Vlachs rather then Serbs, at least when questioning and researching their origin.

    What i mean when i say that even after Slavicization, they separated themselves from Serbs and Slavs, shows best this sentence written in year 1642, when Krajina Vlachs sent letter to Zagreb bishop, where they say: "da bi Laških sinov ne bilo, puste bi Kraine bile". Even tho in old dialect i think that you understand it very well, but im still going to translate it. They say: If there was no sons of Vlachs, Krajina would be empty.

    Also dont forget that Ferdinand II of Habsburg declared
    Statuta Valachorum in Krajina - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statuta_Valachorum


    They are historically known as Vlachs, and now their Ydna and autosomal test confirms it. Middle Eastern Vlach Ydna and Middle eastern components in autosomal together with historical evidence is quite a big deal, when talking about J2-M205 samples since its samples you posted. However for I2a and R1a Krajina Serbs, i wont deny their Slavic origin.


    Look at Cacak sample you posted, he has more Southeast then East, also he cant reach even 50% of East which should be minimum in average. Also he has nice portion of Middle Eastern components and clear Middle Eastern Ydna. How can he be Serb lol. He can at be at best Slavicized and Serbicized, which his Ydna again confirms (J2-M205).
    Last edited by Dema; 12-07-18 at 20:42.

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    @ Dema

    E-V13 and J2 are minority haplogroup among Krajina Serbs and Serbs in general.
    Majority of Serbs which are E-V13 are from Montenegrin tribes Vasojevići, Kuči, Bjelopavlići and Bjelice. They slavized during the middle age, and when they migrated from Montenegro they were Serbian speakers and autosomally same as I2a/R1a Serbs fom centuries.
    Serbs with higher paleo-Balkanite influence you can find in souther Serbia (Torlaks), eastern Serbia, Šumadija, Kosovo and Banat. E-V13 is at the second place among them.
    Among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs R1a is stronger than E-V13.

    Vast majority of Vlachs is medieval Serbia were mostly Slavs who were shepherd. They were social class, not real Latian speaking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs such as Aromanians and Romanians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebri
    Krajina and Bosnian Serbs have very low R1b, they have only 2-3% R1b. You know that R1b is the strongest haplogroup among Aromanians (real Vlachs/paleo-Balkanites).
    Also J2b2 does not exist among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs, and this haplogroup is the second strongest among Aromanians. Among Herzegovinian Serbs there is only 1 guy who is J2b2, and over 300 Herzegovinian Serbs were tested. Bosnia and Krajina Serbs have 0% J2b2.

    Genetic proof that most of medieval "Vlachs" from Serbia were not real paleo-Balkanites, but Slavs who were "Vlachs" as sheperds/social class.
    Clans: Nikšići, Macure, Borojevići, Predojevići, Maleševci, Mirilovići, Drobnjaci and Riđani were known as "Vlachs" in the late middle age and in early Ottoman period. Significant number of Krajina and Bosnian Serbs originated from these clans.
    Nikšići (chyrillic Никшићи) are I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=736.0
    Macure (chyrillic Мацуре) are I1-Z63
    Borojevići (chyrillic Боројевићи) are R1a https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...47627#msg47627
    Predojevići (chyrillic Предојевићи) are R1a-Z280>YP237>YP951 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...77557#msg77557
    Maleševci (chyrillic Малешевци) I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1602.0
    Mirilovići (chyrillic are Мириловићи) I2-CTS10228 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=300.0
    Drobnjaci (chyrillic Дробњаци) are I1-P109.
    Riđani (chyrillic Риђани) are I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...39836#msg39836

    You already know haplogroups of Drobnjaci and Macure, there is no need for link.
    As you can see, these clans were of Slavic (I2-PH908, I2-CTS10228, R1a) and Germanic (I1-P109, I1-Z63) origin. They were just Serbs who were in the "Vlach" social status (caste).
    Western Herzegovinian Catholics Bunjevci were known as "Vlachs" in the middle age and later. 1/4 of modern Croatians are of Bunjevci origin. Bunjevci were "Vlachs" as caste/social status same as these clans up. All of them were far away from real Latin speaking Vlachs which lived in Albania, Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly. Vast majority of Bunjevci are I2-PH908.
    In the middle age in Serbia farmers (Sebri) were in very bad position and their life was hard, because of that many farmer became sheperds ("Vlachs"). Because life of sheperds was much better. Same thing was in the Ottoman period. Sheperds "Vlachs" were privileged and some of them became Martolos which were even more privileged.

    Consulsion:
    1. "Vlachs" from "Statuta Valachorum" were not real Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, but 100% Serbian speakers and genetically predominantly Slavic
    2. Krajina and Bosnians Serbs are genetically most Slavic Serbs, more than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins
    3. Language of Krajina Serbs is 100% Serbian, and they never were Latin speakers. Krajina and Herzegovinian dialects of Serbian language are the purest Serbian speakings and Serbian standard is based on them
    4. Genetically most "paleo-Balkanite shifted" Serbs are Montenegrins, Serbs from southern Serbia (Torlaks) and Serbs from eastern Serbs. In eastern Serbia Serbs are heavy mixed with real Vlachs (imigrants from Romania from the 18th century)
    Last edited by Bachus; 14-07-18 at 14:28.

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    10-20% of Eastern Europe autosomally for Serbs is a joke, even some Greeks and Albanians got 10-20% Eastern Europe.
    At Family Finder Serbs ussualy got 35-65% Eastern Europe, some induviduals even more than 65%. I put up Family Finder of Serbian guy from Lika who got 80% Eastern Europe.
    Krajina Serbs always got over 50% Eastern Europe. All Bosnian Serbs which tested got over 50% Eastern Europe except one guy from Sarajevo (he got 34%), but he probably have recent Montenegrin roots. Serbs from Serbia somethimes are over 50% and somethimes are below 50%, depends of region.
    Montenegrins are always below 40% Eastern Europe. Montenegrins are more paleo-Balkanites genetically than Serbs from Serbia and western Serbs (Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia).

    This is a Family Finder of Serbian guy from Lika (his haplogroup is I2-PH908) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika His result is typical for Krajina Serbs (Serbs from western Bosnia and Croatia).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Consulsion:
    1. "Vlachs" from "Statuta Valachorum" were not real Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, but 100% Serbian speakers and genetically predominantly Slavic
    2. Krajina and Bosnians Serbs are genetically most Slavic Serbs, more than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins
    To clarify to those who are not familiar with the local geography, "Krajina Serbs" means Serbs from Croatia, or Croatian Serbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Consulsion:
    3. Language of Krajina Serbs is 100% Serbian, and they were never Latin speakers. Krajina and Herzegovinian dialects of Serbian language are the purest Serbian speakings and Serbian standard is based on them

    We can't call it “100% Serbian”. Serbian standard language was based on Croatian štokavian dialects. There are no Serbian texts written in that language before 19th century. First Serbian dictionary was written in the beginning of 19th century and it was mostly the compilation of previous Croatian dictionaries. The name "Serbian" was added by the reformers due to their political agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    4. Genetically most "paleo-Balkanite shifted" Serbs are Montenegrins, Serbs from southern Serbia (Torlaks) and Serbs from eastern Serbs. In eastern Serbia Serbs are heavy mixed with real Vlachs (imigrants from Romania from the 18th century)
    The dialects spoken by Serbs from southern and eastern Serbia was most probably the original Serbian language.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @ Wonomyro

    Everything is wrong.
    Shtokavian is Serbian language, and Croatians adopted shtokavian in 19th century. Real Croatian language is chakavian and only 12% of Croatians use real Croatian language.
    Easternherzegovinian shtokavian ijekavica is native dialect of Serbs from Gornji Milanovac to Bela Krajina in Slovenia.
    Honest Croatians admit that ijekavica is non-Croatian.
    U zamalo svi inim hrvatskim etnoprostorima su izvorno materinski ijekavci od djetinjstva među katoličkim Hrvatima tek beznačajne manjine ili posve izostaju tj. prisilno nauče javnu jekavicu tek od škole većinom u gradovima, dok u okolnim selima uglavnom i dalje govore bar privatno i u obitelji nejekavski sve do starosti...
    Look at PRAVOSLAVNI JEKAVCI https://hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Jekavs...4.8Dki_jekavci

    Dude, this is not thread about languages and spot troling this thread.
    This is my last message about language.
    If you want to discuss about language open the thread about that.

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    Croats are centralised Serbians are generally South East Europeans Croatians are more Central South East Europe they are I guess between Slovenia and Serbia racially but more respected to be leaning towards the Serbian/Balkan side.

    There is also Dalmatia Central Italy, but that's another subject.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Maciamo was claiming that South Slavs have 10 - 20% East European / Balto Slavic autosomal DNA, while i said that 10 - 20 % is very rare among them (almost unheard of), what is more typical is 50 - 70 per cent of East European and Balto-Slavic genetics. And the rest should be Southeast that should be Greko Illyrian and native Vlach (E-v13, R1b, J2b2) impact. (I forgot to mention also other clearly foreign Vlach elements like Sephardic, West Middle East, but possibly Asia Minor so Anatolian...)
    What Maciamo posted was maps with east euro admixture based around Dodecad V3 and 23andMe!

    Therefore those maps are acceptable although not entirely correct, but there is no way to make it perfect because the admixture varies from region to region!

    For example Dodecad V3 gives me 13.56 East Euro admixture and I am from the South - Eats of the country!
    A Macedonian woman from Bitola gets 12.54 East Euro on this calculator
    I haven't tested in 23andMe so I don't know about it, however My Origins gives me 19 percent of Eastern European!

    And the Slavic y-dna frequency according to Maciamo in Rep. of Macedonia is around 40 percent.
    However this is the middle value for all the country!

    Some regions like South - West(Bitola region) and South - East(Gevgeli) for example have less of this admixture and frequency, others like the North - East(Torlakian region) have more probably!

    We are still shrouded in mystery as we don't have yet any early medieval samples of Slavs from the Balkans so we don't know for sure what were they genetically like and how much they've contributed in the gene pool of the modern South Slavs, nor do we have any samples from the people who were living on the territory of today Rep. of Macedonia and the territory of today's Greek Macedonia as many Macedonians including myself have some ancestry from there as well!

    Although the early Slavs practiced cremation, there are still some early Slavic buried remains found, so if there is interest by the leading geneticist and anthropologists, we can get the answer I suppose!

    My theory is that the South Slavs that arrived in the Balkans weren't genetically like straight out from Poland or Ukraine.
    During their way to the Southern Balkans, they probably mixed with other people on their way, in Romania and Hungary for example.
    They most probably had already some Balkan influences as there were Roman and latinized Balkan population along the Danube and also some Germanic influences as there were also Germanic people in the Pannonian basin and some Turkic influence!

    In the years 500AD - 600AD all this people mixed in the Pannonian basin and when they finally started to settle for permanent in the Southern Balkans after 620AD, when the Danube frontier colapsed, they were known as Sclavines!

    Therefore, I assume that the Slavs that invaded the Southern Balkans were probably most similar to the people who live today in the Pannonian basin and near it, like the Hungarians, the Slovenes, the Croats from Northern Croatia and maybe Northern Romanians as well!

    According to this, the genetic contribution of the 'Slavs' that invaded the Balkans during the medievals, is much higher than some people presume and goes well with the historical accounts that there was a migration of biblical measures!

    I will just post some admixture results of mine, based on the very same calculator Dodecad V3 to have a better idea what I am talking about...
    1 57.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 42.4% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.86
    2 60.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 39.4% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.33
    3 56.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 43.3% Slovenian (Xing) @ 2.79
    7 59.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 40.2% Slovenian (Xing) @ 3.12
    9 52.2% Slovenian (Xing) + 47.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 3.43
    17 56% Slovenian (Xing) + 44% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 4.05
    If we assume that the Ashkenazis and the Southern Italians are good proxies for the ancient Balkan population and the Slovenes or Hungarians are good proxies for the people who invaded the Balkans during the medievals, than I am something like 50 - 50!

    This is interesting, because goes well with the results that My Heritage gave me and those are 51.2 Southern European(Greek and Italian) and 48.8 Eastern European(Balkan).

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    Ashkenazis are related to Sephardic Jews Sicilians are close to South Greeks I do not get their close grouping of the two ethnicity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ Wonomyro

    Everything is wrong.
    Shtokavian is Serbian language, and Croatians adopted shtokavian in 19th century. Real Croatian language is chakavian and only 12% of Croatians use real Croatian language.
    Easternherzegovinian shtokavian ijekavica is native dialect of Serbs from Gornji Milanovac to Bela Krajina in Slovenia.
    Honest Croatians admit that ijekavica is non-Croatian.
    U zamalo svi inim hrvatskim etnoprostorima su izvorno materinski ijekavci od djetinjstva među katoličkim Hrvatima tek beznačajne manjine ili posve izostaju tj. prisilno nauče javnu jekavicu tek od škole većinom u gradovima, dok u okolnim selima uglavnom i dalje govore bar privatno i u obitelji nejekavski sve do starosti...
    Look at PRAVOSLAVNI JEKAVCI https://hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Jekavs...4.8Dki_jekavci


    Dude, this is not thread about languages and spot troling this thread.
    This is my last message about language.
    If you want to discuss about language open the thread about that.
    I am just reacting to the nonsense.

    You are propagating theories that the Serbs of Croatia are the only "real" Serbs, while the others, especially the Serbs in Serbia are “dubious”.

    How can It be? The Serbs in Croatia live in small enclaves surrounded by the Croatian majority. These areas are the most sparsely populated areas in the country - just woods and mountains, without any urban and cultural center. They live far away from the most western borders of medieval Serbia. How could it be that these Serbs are the “purest” of all Serbs? And they were not even called Serbs before modern times.

    Of course, they are more “northern shifted” then their Balkan brothers. Is that what impressed you?

    I am not going to start linguistic discussions, but someone telling that štokavian (ijekavian) dialects were not Croatian before 19th century, is complete nonsense. The whole literature that exists in that dialect between 15th and 19th century is Croatian. Just go to wikipedia and type “Croatian literature”.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 14-07-18 at 20:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ Dema

    E-V13 and J2 are minority haplogroup among Krajina Serbs and Serbs in general.
    I never said that E-v13 and J2 are majority among Krajina Serbs. Pay closer attention.


    What i actually said is exactly (as can be seen on my post above) "Where J2-M205 and E-v13 is higher then in compare with other South Slavs", meaning J2-M205 and E-v13 together (in combination) is higher in Krajina then in compare to all other South Slavic sourroundings like Slovenia, Slavonia, Bosnia (Muslim/Catholic), but even Istra and surroundings. Which is clearly Croatian/Austrohungar Krajina Vlach element that has been today absorbed into a Serbian population. Even tho they are clearly out of Serbia. (As people already pointed out Krajina is in Croatia, they have no real connection with Serbs from Serbia. In between Krajina and Serbia stands Bosnia.)




    According to Serbian project but also maps i seen from Albanian Foleja members there is obvious higher impact of J2b2, R1b and Ev13 in these areas of Croatia where they are historically known as Vlachs, but also in territory of RS where Bosnjaks also call them Vlachs, which turned out to be true. (I know that J2b2 is generally low among Serbs no need to point that out but i think that one sample is J2b2, so dont go all in screaming that there is zero J2b2 in Krajina Vlachs. Double check your facts again.)


    Actually J2-M205 and E-v13 are 30 % in Krajina. While I2a and R1a is below 50 %.


    J2-M205>Y22066 is excusivly Vlach element that arrived thru Roman Empire territories of Lebanon, Fertile Crescent, and surroundings. While E-v13 is Native Vlach (Latinized Illyrians, Greeks, Thracians) or directly Albanian if that can be verified thru subclades. What we can hypothesize at best is that South Slavs carried at max 2-4 per cent of E-v13 when they arrived and therefore all rest must be native Vlach or directly Albanian. I have very solid proves for my claims if you are willing to continue in that direction. All you need to do is analyse E-v13, R1a and I2a in Slovenia.


    What is interesting to me is that J2-M205 goes as high as 15 per cent among Krajina "Serbs", while there is almost no J-M205 at all among Croats or Slovenians. They all somehow magically assimilated among Krajina Serbs. Which is clear proof that Krajina Serbs are actually Vlachs and not Serbs as they claim today.


    Other hot spot of J2-M205>Y22066 (Obviously Vlach, Roman haplogroup) is in Rashka - Old Serbia and its stretching into Montenegro. Which were both known places of Vlach population and inhibitors.


    Krici tribe that Serbs connect withM205 were Latin speakers from Northern Montenegro.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Majority of Serbs which are E-V13 are from Montenegrin tribes Vasojevići, Kuči, Bjelopavlići and Bjelice.
    How can they be Serbs if they are from Montenegrin tribes? Arent they then supposed to be at lest Montenegrins? Second to that is Montenegrins split into Albanian - Vlach and more recent arriving Slavic group, real mountainous Monenegrins must be falling in the first category.
    Vasojevici were for sure Vlach or Albanian speakers prior to assimilation while Kuqi and Bjelopavlici were 100% Albanian speakers and Albanian tribes prior to assimilation. So therefore they cannot be Serbian when considering origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    They slavized during the middle age, and when they migrated from Montenegro they were Serbian speakers and autosomally same as I2a/R1a Serbs fom centuries.
    Serbs with higher paleo-Balkanite influence you can find in souther Serbia
    Slavicization of Montenegro and surroundings was achieved with force and not with free will as you try to imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Vast majority of Vlachs is medieval Serbia were mostly Slavs who were shepherd. They were social class, not real Latian speaking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs such as Aromanians and Romanians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebri
    Krajina and Bosnian Serbs have very low R1b, they have only 2-3% R1b. You know that R1b is the strongest haplogroup among Aromanians (real Vlachs/paleo-Balkanites).
    Also J2b2 does not exist among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs, and this haplogroup is the second strongest among Aromanians. Among Herzegovinian Serbs there is only 1 guy who is J2b2, and over 300 Herzegovinian Serbs were tested. Bosnia and Krajina Serbs have 0% J2b2.

    Genetic proof that most of medieval "Vlachs" from Serbia were not real paleo-Balkanites, but Slavs who were "Vlachs" as sheperds/social class.
    Clans: Nikšići, Macure, Borojevići, Predojevići, Maleševci, Mirilovići, Drobnjaci and Riđani were known as "Vlachs" in the late middle age and in early Ottoman period. Significant number of Krajina and Bosnian Serbs originated from these clans.
    Nikšići (chyrillic Никшићи) are I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=736.0
    Macure (chyrillic Мацуре) are I1-Z63
    Borojevići (chyrillic Боројевићи) are R1a https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...47627#msg47627
    Predojevići (chyrillic Предојевићи) are R1a-Z280>YP237>YP951 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...77557#msg77557
    Maleševci (chyrillic Малешевци) I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1602.0
    Mirilovići (chyrillic are Мириловићи) I2-CTS10228 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=300.0
    Drobnjaci (chyrillic Дробњаци) are I1-P109.
    Riđani (chyrillic Риђани) are I2-PH908 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...39836#msg39836

    You already know haplogroups of Drobnjaci and Macure, there is no need for link.
    As you can see, these clans were of Slavic (I2-PH908, I2-CTS10228, R1a) and Germanic (I1-P109, I1-Z63) origin. They were just Serbs who were in the "Vlach" social status (caste).
    Western Herzegovinian Catholics Bunjevci were known as "Vlachs" in the middle age and later. 1/4 of modern Croatians are of Bunjevci origin. Bunjevci were "Vlachs" as caste/social status same as these clans up. All of them were far away from real Latin speaking Vlachs which lived in Albania, Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly. Vast majority of Bunjevci are I2-PH908.
    In the middle age in Serbia farmers (Sebri) were in very bad position and their life was hard, because of that many farmer became sheperds ("Vlachs"). Because life of sheperds was much better. Same thing was in the Ottoman period. Sheperds "Vlachs" were privileged and some of them became Martolos which were even more privileged.
    I think all this you written in this last quote is irrelevant and actually shows that you simply dont know what Vlach is. Also shows that you come out of Serbian school of displaying history as only Serbs will try to interpret Vlachs in this way.
    Therefore im puzzled that i found myself now in situation to explain what Vlach is. You must absolutely forget Dusan and medieval Serbia where Vlach was apparently social status and not ethnic group.
    In 6th century Byzantine historians use Vlach term for Latin speakers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#6th_century
    Therefore its very clear what Vlach is. Its Roman leftover that combines both natives but both these that arrived from further Roman provinces and that adopted Latin language.

    All these Niksici, Mirilovici and other "Vlachs" that did not speak Latin but are called Vlachs because they were shepherds its ridiculous to me. They are Serbian shepherds and not Vlachs lol. Therefore lets not confuse real Vlachs with some medieval Serbian status that was also called Vlachs even tho im sure it was more about ethnic group then about status as you try to portrait it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Consulsion:
    1. "Vlachs" from "Statuta Valachorum" were not real Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, but 100% Serbian speakers and genetically predominantly Slavic
    2. Krajina and Bosnians Serbs are genetically most Slavic Serbs, more than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins
    3. Language of Krajina Serbs is 100% Serbian, and they never were Latin speakers. Krajina and Herzegovinian dialects of Serbian language are the purest Serbian speakings and Serbian standard is based on them
    4. Genetically most "paleo-Balkanite shifted" Serbs are Montenegrins, Serbs from southern Serbia (Torlaks) and Serbs from eastern Serbs. In eastern Serbia Serbs are heavy mixed with real Vlachs (imigrants from Romania from the 18th century)

    1. Vlachs from Statuta Valachorum were most certainly Vlachs as they are known as Vlachs historically even tho they are eventually fully Slavicized, and that can be obviously seen thru their Vlach Ydna haplogroups: J-M205, J-L283, E-v13, J1, J2a. But J-M205 and E-v13 is key since they are 30%, and especially M205 since its clear Vlach signal since in surrounding areas only Serbs from Krajina have it since they assimilated Vlachs.
    2. Krajina and RS Serbs are at best half Vlach in Ydna, reason why there are more Slavic shifted is because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins on top of Vlach elements they are heavily Bulgarian and Albanian influenced. Albanian Influence in Montenegrins in overwhelming just as it is in South Serbia. That still does not deny that Krajina and RS Serbs are not Vlachs even tho for centuries there was Slavic income of new genes while there was no new Vlach one. They still show decent amount of Vlach and Albanian genetics in both cases autosomally and thru Ydna.
    4. We went thru this already, they are not Serbs but Montenegrins, which again separate into Slavic and Albanian also Vlach parts. Reason why they are most Southeast shifted is because of enormous Albanian influence but also of previously Vlach one.
    Albanians are sharing their genes there as we speak and they live in Montenegro as natives for millenniums.


    5. Why are you denying obvious and why are you speaking about stuff you have no clue about like trash posts you posted in my M205 thread, which are obviously very easy to debunk since its clear you dont understand my genetic results neither clades.
    Joining with half retarded Albanian grown-up kid that cant speak one healthy sentence, that is born in Sweden and does not speak Albanian language. is not going to bring you many points. If you have anything to say, then say it. But posting Youtube trash videos and claiming that me and some guy both come from Krici simply puts you into bad position since it shows you dont understand simple subclades. Im waiting my Yfull to complete analysis so i can bring new conclusions, why are you rushing into infesting my thread together with that traitor only because we dont have same points of view?


    Conclusion: Serbs from Croatia in area known as Krajina also from Bosnia from RS that are historically known as Vlachs is now confirmed. Vlach signal is very easy to follow thru J2-M205 or E-v13.
    Serbs from Rashka, South Serbia and Montenegro on top of Vlach signal they are heavily Albanian influenced which is reason why Serbs in general are further away from Croats, Bosnjaks, Slovenians and others and probably more Bulgarian shifted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I must give some comments on this map. It shows the territories occupied by Serbia durring the Croatia-Serbia war between 1991.-1995. It is not an ethnic map. The term "Krajina" was invented by Serbs to name the occupied territory. After the liberation in 1995. (Serbian Republic of) Krajina was gone to history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    I must give some comments on this map. It shows the territories occupied by Serbia durring the Croatia-Serbia war between 1991.-1995. It is not an ethnic map. The term "Krajina" was invented by Serbs to name the occupied territory. After the liberation in 1995. (Serbian Republic of) Krajina was gone to history.

    Yes, this is original Military Frontier according to Wikipedia, but as i understand its more or less the same, regarding Croatia. Its even bigger.


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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I never said that E-v13 and J2 are majority among Krajina Serbs. Pay closer attention.


    What i actually said is exactly (as can be seen on my post above) "Where J2-M205 and E-v13 is higher then in compare with other South Slavs", meaning J2-M205 and E-v13 together (in combination) is higher in Krajina then in compare to all other South Slavic sourroundings like Slovenia, Slavonia, Bosnia (Muslim/Catholic), but even Istra and surroundings. Which is clearly Croatian/Austrohungar Krajina Vlach element that has been today absorbed into a Serbian population. Even tho they are clearly out of Serbia. (As people already pointed out Krajina is in Croatia, they have no real connection with Serbs from Serbia. In between Krajina and Serbia stands Bosnia.)




    According to Serbian project but also maps i seen from Albanian Foleja members there is obvious higher impact of J2b2, R1b and Ev13 in these areas of Croatia where they are historically known as Vlachs, but also in territory of RS where Bosnjaks also call them Vlachs, which turned out to be true. (I know that J2b2 is generally low among Serbs no need to point that out but i think that one sample is J2b2, so dont go all in screaming that there is zero J2b2 in Krajina Vlachs. Double check your facts again.)


    Actually J2-M205 and E-v13 are 30 % in Krajina. While I2a and R1a is below 50 %.


    J2-M205>Y22066 is excusivly Vlach element that arrived thru Roman Empire territories of Lebanon, Fertile Crescent, and surroundings. While E-v13 is Native Vlach (Latinized Illyrians, Greeks, Thracians) or directly Albanian if that can be verified thru subclades. What we can hypothesize at best is that South Slavs carried at max 2-4 per cent of E-v13 when they arrived and therefore all rest must be native Vlach or directly Albanian. I have very solid proves for my claims if you are willing to continue in that direction. All you need to do is analyse E-v13, R1a and I2a in Slovenia.


    What is interesting to me is that J2-M205 goes as high as 15 per cent among Krajina "Serbs", while there is almost no J-M205 at all among Croats or Slovenians. They all somehow magically assimilated among Krajina Serbs. Which is clear proof that Krajina Serbs are actually Vlachs and not Serbs as they claim today.


    Other hot spot of J2-M205>Y22066 (Obviously Vlach, Roman haplogroup) is in Rashka - Old Serbia and its stretching into Montenegro. Which were both known places of Vlach population and inhibitors.


    Krici tribe that Serbs connect withM205 were Latin speakers from Northern Montenegro.




    How can they be Serbs if they are from Montenegrin tribes? Arent they then supposed to be at lest Montenegrins? Second to that is Montenegrins split into Albanian - Vlach and more recent arriving Slavic group, real mountainous Monenegrins must be falling in the first category.
    Vasojevici were for sure Vlach or Albanian speakers prior to assimilation while Kuqi and Bjelopavlici were 100% Albanian speakers and Albanian tribes prior to assimilation. So therefore they cannot be Serbian when considering origin.



    Slavicization of Montenegro and surroundings was achieved with force and not with free will as you try to imply.



    I think all this you written in this last quote is irrelevant and actually shows that you simply dont know what Vlach is. Also shows that you come out of Serbian school of displaying history as only Serbs will try to interpret Vlachs in this way.
    Therefore im puzzled that i found myself now in situation to explain what Vlach is. You must absolutely forget Dusan and medieval Serbia where Vlach was apparently social status and not ethnic group.
    In 6th century Byzantine historians use Vlach term for Latin speakers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#6th_century
    Therefore its very clear what Vlach is. Its Roman leftover that combines both natives but both these that arrived from further Roman provinces and that adopted Latin language.

    All these Niksici, Mirilovici and other "Vlachs" that did not speak Latin but are called Vlachs because they were shepherds its ridiculous to me. They are Serbian shepherds and not Vlachs lol. Therefore lets not confuse real Vlachs with some medieval Serbian status that was also called Vlachs even tho im sure it was more about ethnic group then about status as you try to portrait it.





    1. Vlachs from Statuta Valachorum were most certainly Vlachs as they are known as Vlachs historically even tho they are eventually fully Slavicized, and that can be obviously seen thru their Vlach Ydna haplogroups: J-M205, J-L283, E-v13, J1, J2a. But J-M205 and E-v13 is key since they are 30%, and especially M205 since its clear Vlach signal since in surrounding areas only Serbs from Krajina have it since they assimilated Vlachs.
    2. Krajina and RS Serbs are at best half Vlach in Ydna, reason why there are more Slavic shifted is because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins on top of Vlach elements they are heavily Bulgarian and Albanian influenced. Albanian Influence in Montenegrins in overwhelming just as it is in South Serbia. That still does not deny that Krajina and RS Serbs are not Vlachs even tho for centuries there was Slavic income of new genes while there was no new Vlach one. They still show decent amount of Vlach and Albanian genetics in both cases autosomally and thru Ydna.
    4. We went thru this already, they are not Serbs but Montenegrins, which again separate into Slavic and Albanian also Vlach parts. Reason why they are most Southeast shifted is because of enormous Albanian influence but also of previously Vlach one.
    Albanians are sharing their genes there as we speak and they live in Montenegro as natives for millenniums.


    5. Why are you denying obvious and why are you speaking about stuff you have no clue about like trash posts you posted in my M205 thread, which are obviously very easy to debunk since its clear you dont understand my genetic results neither clades.
    Joining with half retarded Albanian grown-up kid that cant speak one healthy sentence, that is born in Sweden and does not speak Albanian language. is not going to bring you many points. If you have anything to say, then say it. But posting Youtube trash videos and claiming that me and some guy both come from Krici simply puts you into bad position since it shows you dont understand simple subclades. Im waiting my Yfull to complete analysis so i can bring new conclusions, why are you rushing into infesting my thread together with that traitor only because we dont have same points of view?


    Conclusion: Serbs from Croatia in area known as Krajina also from Bosnia from RS that are historically known as Vlachs is now confirmed. Vlach signal is very easy to follow thru J2-M205 or E-v13.
    Serbs from Rashka, South Serbia and Montenegro on top of Vlach signal they are heavily Albanian influenced which is reason why Serbs in general are further away from Croats, Bosnjaks, Slovenians and others and probably more Bulgarian shifted.
    Y DNA of Serbs from Banija and Kordun (chirillyc Банија и Кордун) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banovina_(region) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kordun
    I2a - 44,7%
    R1a - 16,4%
    E-V13 - 11,9%
    J2b - 9%
    G2a - 6%
    N - 4,5%
    J2a - 3%
    R1b - 3%
    I1 - 1,5%
    Slavic Y DNA - ​61,1% (Slavo-Germanic Y DNA - 62,6%)
    Look at here https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...79958#msg79958

    Y DNA of Serbs from Bosanska Krajina (chyrillic Босанска Крајина) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina
    I2a - 33,3%
    R1a - 19,4%
    E-V13 - 12,5%
    J2b - 9,7%
    N2 - 8,3%
    I1 - 6,9%
    J1 - 4,2%
    R1b - ​2,8%
    J2a - 1,4%
    I2-M223 - 0,7%
    I2-L223 - 0,7%
    Slavic Y DNA - 52,7% (Slavo-Germanic Y DNA - 60,3%)
    Look at here https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...92655#msg92655

    Y DNA of Serbs from Šumadija https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šumadija
    I2a - 36,8%
    E-V13 - 16,1%
    R1b - 12,7%
    I1 - 10,3%
    R1a - 8,1%
    J2b - 5,8%
    J2a - 4,6%
    G2 - 2,3%
    N- 1,1%
    I2c - 1,1%
    Q - 1,1%
    Slavic Y DNA - 44,9% ​(Slavo-Germanic Y DNA - 55,2%)
    Look at here https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...77187#msg77187

    Serbs from Banija/Kordun and Bosanska Krajina are Krajina Serbs, Serbs from Šumadija are Serbs from central Serbia.
    As you can see you are very wrong abot Krajina Serbs Y DNA. They have predominantly Slavic Y DNa and R1a is stronger than E-V13, and that is not case in Šumadija, Banat and southern Serbia where is E-V13 stronger than R1a.
    Question for you which of these Serbs are the most "Vlach" by Y DNA, from Banija/Kordun, from Bosanska Krajina or from Šumadija?

    Serbs from Banija/Kordun have only 3% R1b and Serbs from Bosanska Krajina have only 2,8% R1b, on the other hand Serbs from Šumadija have 12,7% R1b.

    There is no 71% I2a among Croatian from BiH. That statistic was based at small sample from few villages in western Herzegovina, where happened local hot spot of I2a.

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    No need to quote my entire post and then address only 1 % of it with two copy pastes from Poreklo.
    If you look at Lika region on that same link you posted you can see that J2-M205 goes 17 % and Ev13 goes 13 %. So in one of major Krajina regions in Lika two major Vlach haplos go 30 %. Situation is similar with Lika and Gorski Kotar combined.

    I understand that many centuries have passed, and things might not be as they used to be. but among them is undeniable Vlach element that is not recorded anywhere in surrounding territories (Croats, Slovens, Bosnjak Muslims/Catholics).

    J2-M205 could be expansion from Montenegrin territories just as E-v13 also could since they are both recorded there in higher percentages. However both of them are for sure Vlach in origin.

    Here are two maps that explain situation in best way:

    E-v13, J2b2 and R1b>BY611 map made by Foleja member:




    Map of J2-M205 members from Poreklo, made by Poreklo member:






    Now note that both of them are inside the red lines, Both J2b2, R1b and Ev13 just as J2b1, they fit perfectly. Its a Vlach signal. Also in many cases Latinized Illyrians so native Vlach or especially in Montenegro zone as i already mentioned directly Albanian influence when considering j2b2, ev13 and R1b also Latin one in M205.


    Where is epicentar of I2a in Bosnia, J2b1 but also J2b2, Ev13 and R1b frequencies go down. In addition to these i would like to also mark J1, J2a, but also G2a as Vlach haplogroups.


    You were saying something to me about my autosomal because i score 18% East Slavic? But remember i will always score way more Southeast then most of South Slavs will score East. And i will always score less East then most of South Slavs will score Southeast. But both Southeast and East are irrelevant to me. We are invaders here, its just females we banged. What i specially like about my autosomal is 2% Sephardic and 1% North African. Which just as in some J2b1 Vlach cases you posted also goes well with my Middle Eastern Roman Ydna.

    That illiterate Fustan guy was calling me about haplogroup claiming that he is this and that while in fact all he did is climb the mountain and let all his territories be taken over by Slavs. He was illiterate as Illyrian and Albanian until 14 century, while my people have invented writing for millenniums. He thinks he is native or something while his people were barely a pirates that robbed Romans until they conquered and humiliated them. J2b1 has Sidonian ancient Ydna 1700 BCE, and Sidonians were known as probably first Mediterranean sea travelers, where both Greeks and Romans copied their ships. My people probably sailed Mediterranean sea while he was still at Russian Pontic Stepps and he thinks he can call me out for something.

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    @ Dema

    From Lika there is a planned testing of some families who are cousins, and because of that J2b1 is not real. Despite of that there is not canches for 17% J2b1 in Lika.
    One of the adminies from Poreklo is J2b1 and he make a cherry-picking of families which are relatives when it comes to testing. In spite of manipulations of frustrated adminies R1a is quite stronger among Lika Serbs than planing cherry-picked J2b1 tested samples.

    You don't have a comment for the Serbs from other regions of Krajina such as Bosanska Krajina, Dalmatia, Banija and Kordun where are J2+E-V13 are not more than 20%?

    You don't have a comment for the fact that J2b2 does not exist among Krajina Serbs?

    You don't have a comment for the fact that R1b is very low among Krajina Serbs? R1b does not exist among Lika Serbs.

    You don't have a comment for the domination of I2a and R1a all regions of Krajina where Serbs lived?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ Dema

    From Lika there is a planned testing of some families who are cousins, and because of that J2b1 is not real. Despite of that there is not canches for 17% J2b1 in Lika.
    One of the adminies from Poreklo is J2b1 and he make a cherry-picking of families which are relatives when it comes to testing. In spite of manipulations of frustrated adminies R1a is quite stronger among Lika Serbs than planing cherry-picked J2b1 tested samples.

    1. You don't have a comment for the Serbs from other regions of Krajina such as Bosanska Krajina, Dalmatia, Banija and Kordun where are J2b+E-V13 are not more than 20%?

    2. You don't have a comment for the fact that J2b2 does not exist among Krajina Serbs?

    3. You don't have a comment for the fact that R1b is very low among Krajina Serbs? R1b does not exist among Lika serbs.

    4. You don't have a comment for the domination of I2a and R1a all regions of Krajina where Serbs lived?

    I had a comment and addressed almost every of your claims. You ignored most of my claims. Im alright with it tho, i know that you will think about them later.

    I cant believe that Nebojsa is fearfully testing all possible J2b1 lines in fear that it might fall under 5% in project lol. When he knows that in Serbia never goes above 2 % or max 3 %. He can do that for some time but he will eventually run out of new possible samples while R1a and I2a will go up as they should in reality. They did the same with E-v13 samples when testing Montenegrins.
    In reality both E-v13 and J2b1 should be lower among Serbs. I dont understand why is he doing it tho and what is he trying to achieve since its clear that all Serbian samples are recent Levant arrivals with 1100 years TMRCA and all diversity of J2-M205 is among Middle Easterners.

    let me try address these new requests you have:

    1. Even if Ev13 and J2b are not more then 20% at Dalmatia Baniaja and Kordun. Still that Vlach J2-M205 which lacks at Croats, Slovens and Bosniaks, which is obviously Vlach can testify that these people are at least more Vlach then their neighbors?

    2. J2b2 is there, look at map made by Albanian member, also in link you posted at Krajina statistics there can be seen one J2b2, as J2a and M205 are separated he cant be anything else, look at this Nebojsa post - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...76998#msg76998

    3. R1b, 2 %, 3 %, 5 %, it does not matter, whoever is R1b among South Slavs is for sure assimilated, Vlach, Albanian, Kelt, i dont know but for sure not Slav.

    4. If there is R1a and I2a domination in all regions of Krajina im happy for you. But as i seen there is at best 50% and in some cases below 50% of Slavic Ydna. Also as i already explained Vlach Ydna was not coming in anymore while Slavs could easily bring in fresh lines. There is no wonder that Slavs genetically finally took over after all these years, but Vlach signal can still be seen there in decent percentages. And it was probably much stronger before.

    5. I2a was also not originally Slavic, they were passive farmers behind Carpathians that were invaded and Slavicized by R1a conquerors, however when arriving in Balkan at Early Middle Ages, they both arrived as Slavs. Its like when Borg assimilates you, then you just keep going doing the same.

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    Croatians and Slovenians have about 40% non-Slavic haplogroups. I2a+R1a among both is about 60%.
    Both of them are far away from 100% Slavic Y DNA as you think they have.

    Croatians have J2b1-M205, you are not informed. I have seen 2 Croatians from Livno who are J2b-M205, surname of one of them is Čirko.
    I had a contact with Croatian guy from Molunat near Dubrovnik who is J2b-M205. I told him about for Kriči.
    Croatians have more J2b2 than Serbs, and J2b2 is Vlacho-Albanian.
    J2b2 does not exist among Krajina Serbs.

    Krajina Serbs have higher I1 than Croatians on average.
    Dalmatian Serbs have over 16% I1.
    This is what Nebojša said (first) https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...93852#msg93852
    Translation of the last sentences for you: "very high percentage of I1 in northern Dalmatia. Except this Serbian region, the highest percentage of I1 is in Stari Vlah and Romanija"
    I2a is quite stronger among Serbs from Dalmatia, Kordun and Banija than among Serbs from Lika. Serbs from Lika have more R1a than Serbs from Kordun, Banija and Dalmatia.

    Northern haplos I2a+R1a+I1 (Slavo-Germanic) are majority among Krajina Serbs.
    These 3 haplos together are much stronger than Vlach E-V13, J2 and R1b.
    N haplogroup among Serbs is of unknown origin. Lika Serbs have 7-8% N.

    Bosnian muslims and most of Croatians are not more northern shifted than Krajina Serbs. If Krajina Serbs are Vlach then Croatians and Bosnian muslim should be quite more northern autosomally. But they are not, the are similar northern shifted on average.
    Serbs from Banija are probably the most northern shifted Serbs. I have seen K12b dodecad of one Banija Serb, and he got 47% North_European (that is about Slovenian average). He is a pure Serb, and his haplogroup is I2-PH908.
    A lot of Banija Serbs are blonde and blue eyed.

    For the manipulation of frustrated adminies for Serbian forum you have pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I never said that E-v13 and J2 are majority among Krajina Serbs. Pay closer attention.
    What i actually said is exactly (as can be seen on my post above) "Where J2-M205 and E-v13 is higher then in compare with other South Slavs", meaning J2-M205 and E-v13 together (in combination) is higher in Krajina then in compare to all other South Slavic sourroundings like Slovenia, Slavonia, Bosnia (Muslim/Catholic), but even Istra and surroundings. Which is clearly Croatian/Austrohungar Krajina Vlach element that has been today absorbed into a Serbian population. Even tho they are clearly out of Serbia. (As people already pointed out Krajina is in Croatia, they have no real connection with Serbs from Serbia. In between Krajina and Serbia stands Bosnia.)

    According to Serbian project but also maps i seen from Albanian Foleja members there is obvious higher impact of J2b2, R1b and Ev13 in these areas of Croatia where they are historically known as Vlachs, but also in territory of RS where Bosnjaks also call them Vlachs, which turned out to be true. (I know that J2b2 is generally low among Serbs no need to point that out but i think that one sample is J2b2, so dont go all in screaming that there is zero J2b2 in Krajina Vlachs. Double check your facts again.)
    Actually J2-M205 and E-v13 are 30 % in Krajina. While I2a and R1a is below 50 %.
    J2-M205>Y22066 is excusivly Vlach element that arrived thru Roman Empire territories of Lebanon, Fertile Crescent, and surroundings. While E-v13 is Native Vlach (Latinized Illyrians, Greeks, Thracians) or directly Albanian if that can be verified thru subclades. What we can hypothesize at best is that South Slavs carried at max 2-4 per cent of E-v13 when they arrived and therefore all rest must be native Vlach or directly Albanian. I have very solid proves for my claims if you are willing to continue in that direction. All you need to do is analyse E-v13, R1a and I2a in Slovenia.
    What is interesting to me is that J2-M205 goes as high as 15 per cent among Krajina "Serbs", while there is almost no J-M205 at all among Croats or Slovenians. They all somehow magically assimilated among Krajina Serbs. Which is clear proof that Krajina Serbs are actually Vlachs and not Serbs as they claim today.
    Other hot spot of J2-M205>Y22066 (Obviously Vlach, Roman haplogroup) is in Rashka - Old Serbia and its stretching into Montenegro. Which were both known places of Vlach population and inhibitors.
    Krici tribe that Serbs connect withM205 were Latin speakers from Northern Montenegro.
    How can they be Serbs if they are from Montenegrin tribes? Arent they then supposed to be at lest Montenegrins? Second to that is Montenegrins split into Albanian - Vlach and more recent arriving Slavic group, real mountainous Monenegrins must be falling in the first category.
    Vasojevici were for sure Vlach or Albanian speakers prior to assimilation while Kuqi and Bjelopavlici were 100% Albanian speakers and Albanian tribes prior to assimilation. So therefore they cannot be Serbian when considering origin.
    Slavicization of Montenegro and surroundings was achieved with force and not with free will as you try to imply.
    I think all this you written in this last quote is irrelevant and actually shows that you simply dont know what Vlach is. Also shows that you come out of Serbian school of displaying history as only Serbs will try to interpret Vlachs in this way.
    Therefore im puzzled that i found myself now in situation to explain what Vlach is. You must absolutely forget Dusan and medieval Serbia where Vlach was apparently social status and not ethnic group.
    In 6th century Byzantine historians use Vlach term for Latin speakers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#6th_century
    Therefore its very clear what Vlach is. Its Roman leftover that combines both natives but both these that arrived from further Roman provinces and that adopted Latin language.
    All these Niksici, Mirilovici and other "Vlachs" that did not speak Latin but are called Vlachs because they were shepherds its ridiculous to me. They are Serbian shepherds and not Vlachs lol. Therefore lets not confuse real Vlachs with some medieval Serbian status that was also called Vlachs even tho im sure it was more about ethnic group then about status as you try to portrait it.
    1. Vlachs from Statuta Valachorum were most certainly Vlachs as they are known as Vlachs historically even tho they are eventually fully Slavicized, and that can be obviously seen thru their Vlach Ydna haplogroups: J-M205, J-L283, E-v13, J1, J2a. But J-M205 and E-v13 is key since they are 30%, and especially M205 since its clear Vlach signal since in surrounding areas only Serbs from Krajina have it since they assimilated Vlachs.
    2. Krajina and RS Serbs are at best half Vlach in Ydna, reason why there are more Slavic shifted is because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins on top of Vlach elements they are heavily Bulgarian and Albanian influenced. Albanian Influence in Montenegrins in overwhelming just as it is in South Serbia. That still does not deny that Krajina and RS Serbs are not Vlachs even tho for centuries there was Slavic income of new genes while there was no new Vlach one. They still show decent amount of Vlach and Albanian genetics in both cases autosomally and thru Ydna.
    4. We went thru this already, they are not Serbs but Montenegrins, which again separate into Slavic and Albanian also Vlach parts. Reason why they are most Southeast shifted is because of enormous Albanian influence but also of previously Vlach one.
    Albanians are sharing their genes there as we speak and they live in Montenegro as natives for millenniums.
    5. Why are you denying obvious and why are you speaking about stuff you have no clue about like trash posts you posted in my M205 thread, which are obviously very easy to debunk since its clear you dont understand my genetic results neither clades.
    Joining with half retarded Albanian grown-up kid that cant speak one healthy sentence, that is born in Sweden and does not speak Albanian language. is not going to bring you many points. If you have anything to say, then say it. But posting Youtube trash videos and claiming that me and some guy both come from Krici simply puts you into bad position since it shows you dont understand simple subclades. Im waiting my Yfull to complete analysis so i can bring new conclusions, why are you rushing into infesting my thread together with that traitor only because we dont have same points of view?
    Conclusion: Serbs from Croatia in area known as Krajina also from Bosnia from RS that are historically known as Vlachs is now confirmed. Vlach signal is very easy to follow thru J2-M205 or E-v13.
    Serbs from Rashka, South Serbia and Montenegro on top of Vlach signal they are heavily Albanian influenced which is reason why Serbs in general are further away from Croats, Bosnjaks, Slovenians and others and probably more Bulgarian shifted.
    After the great illyrian revolt 9AD and the third illyrian war in 167BC , nearly 300000 illyrian where massacred and removed to other places in the empire ..........the dalmatian and pannonian areas where replenished by Dacians ( fleeing the push of the Goths )..........dacians = Vlachs ..........both spoke Latin
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  23. #123
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    We do not have historical records that any Serbs come to Croatia or about 10% in writing but also in these 10% are mentioned with Vlachs and somewhere with Croats.

    Vlachs with Serbs have nothing to do, in this area most of the Croat population has also passed on Orthodoxy and for that you do not need a written document just use logic.

    It is interesting that during last 10 years of watching various forums in the Balkans and wider I did not come across a one quote from Serbian forum member that one Croat passed on Orthodoxy, that speaks for itself.

    Genetic data showed here for Croatian Serbs are not useful because we do not know whether they are mixed families, cousins, etc. We do not know whether they are Croats who converted to Orthodoxy. In any case genetics of Croatian Serbs has the most connection with Vlachs who became today's Croatian Serbs partially and Croatians which probably coming from direction of Albania and Albanian ethnic areas. Most likely part of R1a and I2a subclades in Croatian Serbs are Croatian origin. We know that exactly when we identify local migration of all these R1a, I2a etc subclades.

    It is interesting and that Croats are historically mention in Drina valley, eastern Herzegovina, central Montenegro, in the heart of medieval Serbia in Raska, where today is the epicenter of Serbians and Montenegrins. Supposedly from these directions Serbians come to Croatia so it is possible that these Croats also coming to Croatia.

    And finally, Serbs think that Vlachs of Balkans are Serbs but this is their internal and national problem which has nothing to do with with Croats, Albanians, Slovenes etc. Serbian Emperor Dušan(Dušan the Mighty) has clearly separated Serbs from Vlachs and this is an indisputable fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes, this is original Military Frontier according to Wikipedia, but as i understand its more or less the same, regarding Croatia. Its even bigger.


    Before 1991. nobody was using the term “Krajina”. It is purely Serb nationalistic construct, meaningless today, and we should avoid using it. It is the anachronism used by Serbia to create an impression that their territorial aspirations have the historical legitimation. However, in 1991. Serbs didn’t follow any pattern except to grab as much Croatian territory as they could. They were stopped at some point, and in order to legalize the occupation, they called the territory “Serbian Republic of Krajina”. It is sad that many Serbs still use that term on Internet forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    We do not have historical records that any Serbs come to Croatia or about 10% in writing but also in these 10% are mentioned with Vlachs and somewhere with Croats.

    Vlachs with Serbs have nothing to do, in this area most of the Croat population has also passed on Orthodoxy and for that you do not need a written document just use logic.

    It is interesting that during last 10 years of watching various forums in the Balkans and wider I did not come across a one quote from Serbian forum member that one Croat passed on Orthodoxy, that speaks for itself.

    Genetic data showed here for Croatian Serbs are not useful because we do not know whether they are mixed families, cousins, etc. We do not know whether they are Croats who converted to Orthodoxy. In any case genetics of Croatian Serbs has the most connection with Vlachs who became today's Croatian Serbs partially and Croatians which probably coming from direction of Albania and Albanian ethnic areas. Most likely part of R1a and I2a subclades in Croatian Serbs are Croatian origin. We know that exactly when we identify local migration of all these R1a, I2a etc subclades.

    It is interesting and that Croats are historically mention in Drina valley, eastern Herzegovina, central Montenegro, in the heart of medieval Serbia in Raska, where today is the epicenter of Serbians and Montenegrins. Supposedly from these directions Serbians come to Croatia so it is possible that these Croats also coming to Croatia.

    And finally, Serbs think that Vlachs of Balkans are Serbs but this is their internal and national problem which has nothing to do with with Croats, Albanians, Slovenes etc. Serbian Emperor Dušan(Dušan the Mighty) has clearly separated Serbs from Vlachs and this is an indisputable fact.
    Vlach are Romanian not Serbian

    Not much of a Serb minority in Croatia I have to be careful what I will say since I don't want another strike on my account but...Croatians are just Catholic Serbians you became Catholics same as Bosnian became Muslim easily to look at Ex Yugoslavic demographics online

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