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Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Another t-roll gone. Thank you, members, for alerting me to the provocative, disruptive behavior and requesting action.

    For the rest of you, settle down. Civil, polite discussion based on data or I'll close this thread too.

    You have no one but yourselves to blame.

    Honestly, some of you people make me feel like a junior high school lunchroom and recess monitor. Grow up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    No if N exists in Slavs it's because of full blown Mongoloids it's actually in Finland and Sami it would not be Avars but probably Sabirs...
    Lol at Serbs being Albanian shifted too but aren't they originally Illyrian by their claims?
    If Serbs are the most North shifted in all of Balkans it makes sense they are pretty tall at least almost as much as Montenegro and forgive me for saying so they are pretty equipped in the right departments from what they show me in Omegle lol
    Serbs claim Thracian ( after the triballi tribe ), not illyrian
    Exonym of Serbs
    The Seal of the Serbian Parliament, 1805
    Golden pitcher from Vratsa
    The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[14][15][16][17][18] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[19][20][21][22][23] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[24] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[25] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[26]
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    And another one is back. 16 minutes, just the time for a coffee.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, well, you're on a VERY short leash now. Next time it's PERMANENT.

    Didn't mommy ever teach you how to play nice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Serbs claim Thracian ( after the triballi tribe ), not illyrian
    Exonym of Serbs
    The Seal of the Serbian Parliament, 1805
    Golden pitcher from Vratsa
    The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[14][15][16][17][18] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[19][20][21][22][23] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[24] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[25] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[26]
    Byzantines also considered Albanians, Macedonians. And Plethon actually claimed the Peloponessians of 15th century (Albanians, Greeks, Italians and Slavs) were the direct descendants of the ancient Hellenes. With that being said no eminent scholar takes those claims seriously without backing data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yeah, well, you're on a VERY short leash now. Next time it's PERMANENT.

    Didn't mommy ever teach you how to play nice?
    Excuse me, this your post is addressed to me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Arnauts were from the Byzantine Albanians I think they're related to Tosks or whatever
    Arnaut is a Turkish word,

    it has 2 meanings

    the one is the one who leaves and never comes back
    the other is the one who can not change his mind, a kind of stuck mind.

    usually was used to term the Albanians who served the ottoman's empire,
    as public officers or military forces.
    but after their service, they did not return home
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Byzantines also considered Albanians, Macedonians. And Plethon actually claimed the Peloponessians of 15th century (Albanians, Greeks, Italians and Slavs) were the direct descendants of the ancient Hellenes. With that being said no eminent scholar takes those claims seriously without backing data.
    which Makedonians?
    and which Albanians?
    and what era?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Arnaut is a Turkish word,

    it has 2 meanings

    the one is the one who leaves and never comes back
    the other is the one who can not change his mind, a kind of stuck mind.

    usually was used to term the Albanians who served the ottoman's empire,
    as public officers or military forces.
    but after their service, they did not return home
    It's not true and it's one of your falsifications.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I gotta hand my respects to Laberia for this... His persistence is unmatched... Like the one of an immovable object against the masses of Serbo-Greko trol-ls....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I might be, we know we had one Serbian woman like 6 or 7 generations ago, i expected my autosomal to score some Slavic genetics in advance, it was no surprise to me.

    Its funny that you mention a bit of my Slavic influence while you dont mention Albanian and Vlach influence that is pulling all Serbs away from Croats, Slovens, Hungarians and rest. Serbs are obviously more Albanian shifted then rest of their neighbors (as it can be seen on V2 K15 map below). Probably Bulgarian influence also pulls them towards the South.


    Here you can see map of some Albanian members plotting together:

    Eurogenes v2 K15







    As you can see i plot just fine with other Albanians, a bit N Italian and Tuscany shifted while Serbs Plot towards Albanians so away from your so desired North

    Whats funny to me is i just realized Fustanovic, that you joined up with, to ruin my M205 thread is also there. Funny that he says Slav this and Slav that when he is the most Serbian shifted one lol
    Lnao Fustanovic. Wow. I knew there was reason to his rage. I’m not on there but I plot directly under Ylla . Our results are really similar. My father is to the top left of Era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    which Makedonians?
    and which Albanians?
    and what era?
    Laonikos Chalkokondyles considered Albanians the descendants of Macedonians. Not to say he was right. But what I am trying to say that some historians did have some wrong opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally.

    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    When the invaders brought 70% Y-DNA (in Bosnia) they did also contribute 50% of their autosomal DNA, that's 35% overall autosomal contribution, from men alone, if one assumes that these men were genetically pure or at least close to that. And of course they did brought women with them too.

    I agree that South Slavs are very mixed, especially the southern ones, but I believe their Slavic admixture is underestimated. I may be wrong about that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    When the invaders brought 70% Y-DNA (in Bosnia) they did also contribute 50% of their autosomal DNA, that's 35% overall autosomal contribution, from men alone, if one assumes that these men were genetically pure or at least close to that. And of course they did brought women with them too.

    I agree that South Slavs are very mixed, especially the southern ones, but I believe their Slavic admixture is underestimated. I may be wrong about that though.
    But as you briefly mentioned, that doesn't mean their aDNA was completely alien compared to the locals, after all they lived just North of the Dacians so there's a high probability they weren't 100% North Eastern European or Baltic.

    Taking into account the physical description of the ancient authors they were either similar in appearance to the local Balkanites or already highly mixed with them.

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    The physical description doesn't mean much. All populations change in height in different periods. Plus, average Illyrian height is estimated to have been around 165cm.

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    It is interesting that around year 1000 AD South Slavs were ca. 1/5 (18-22%) of all Slavs.

    See my thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-s-population

    Over time their share has declined to around 1/10. The share of East Slavs has increased.

    In 1000 AD East Slavs were only slightly over half of Slavs, in 1800 already around 2/3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    The physical description doesn't mean much. All populations change in height in different periods. Plus, average Illyrian height is estimated to have been around 165cm.
    Nobody's talking about height.

    You can't possibly know the average Illyrian height and you're referring to the average height of some coastal Liburnians. You could do more research and find that the skeletons found in Scupi had an average of 172cm. Illyria is a vast territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Nobody's talking about height.

    You can't possibly know the average Illyrian height and you're referring to the average height of some coastal Liburnians. You could do more research and find that the skeletons found in Scupi had an average of 172cm. Illyria is a vast territory.
    I cannot read your mind to know what you mean, but when ancient authors describe Illyrians they usually mention height, which Wilkes estimates at 165 cm.

    What other enduring physical characteristic are you speaking of anyway? Appearances and perceptions change. And even if two peoples did look similar, it doesn't mean they were related or mixed. Turks and Spaniards have very different ancestries but they would appeare similar if you only had brief descriptions of them.
    Last edited by Ownstyler; 24-09-18 at 08:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    But as you briefly mentioned, that doesn't mean their aDNA was completely alien compared to the locals, after all they lived just North of the Dacians so there's a high probability they weren't 100% North Eastern European or Baltic.

    Taking into account the physical description of the ancient authors they were either similar in appearance to the local Balkanites or already highly mixed with them.
    Agreed, the contrast of R1a and I2a shows that South Slavs were probably somewhat different from the Northern ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I cannot read your mind to know what you mean, but when ancient authors describe Illyrians they usually mention height, which Wilkes estimates at 165 cm.

    What other enduring physical characteristic are you speaking of anyway? Appearances and perceptions change. And even if two peoples did look similar, it doesn't mean they were related or mixed. Turks and Spaniards have very different ancestries but they would appeare similar if you only had brief descriptions of them.
    Read about the descriptions of the Slavs that came into contact with the Romans/Byzantines. It's not the typical modern Eastern Slav at all but rather similar to the Yugoslavs.

    And knowing that Yugoslavs do overlap with Albanians for example, I said they were either pretty similar in appearance to ancient Balkanites or they were already mixed with them by the time they were described so when they settled in the Western Balkans at least they were already admixed autosomally, despite the fact that they brought I2a to levels even up to 70%, although 30% is the usual average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Read about the descriptions of the Slavs that came into contact with the Romans/Byzantines. It's not the typical modern Eastern Slav at all but rather similar to the Yugoslavs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Agreed, the contrast of R1a and I2a shows that South Slavs were probably somewhat different from the Northern ones.
    I have read descriptions of the Slavs and I agree that they didn't look like most Eastern Slavs today. I just don't think it's because they mixed with Illyrians. Maybe Dacians, but if they had been so close to them the Romans should have noticed them a bit earlier. If you look at the I2a thread here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d-distribution, in the last page, you can see that even I2a likley originated somewhere between Ukraine and Belarus. That darker look might have been just how the people of that area were before the Vikings and Baltics expanded there. Or it could have emerged from admixture with different waves of Central Asian invaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    When the invaders brought 70% Y-DNA (in Bosnia) they did also contribute 50% of their autosomal DNA, that's 35% overall autosomal contribution, from men alone, if one assumes that these men were genetically pure or at least close to that. And of course they did brought women with them too.

    I agree that South Slavs are very mixed, especially the southern ones, but I believe their Slavic admixture is underestimated. I may be wrong about that though.
    The best fits I could obtain for Bosnians for example would always be around 60% West Ukrainian & 40% Albanian. In groups like Bosnian Croats the Y-DNA could be up to around 90% Slavic in orign. Russians & Belarusians as Slavic source give a very bad fit, while Poles also fit very well.

    AFAIk Ukrainians from the western part of the country aren't very light-pigmentend, so that could explain the ancient descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The best fits I could obtain for Bosnians for example would always be around 60% West Ukrainian & 40% Albanian. In groups like Bosnian Croats the Y-DNA could be up to around 90% Slavic in orign. Russians & Belarusians as Slavic source give a very bad fit, while Poles also fit very well.

    AFAIk Ukrainians from the western part of the country aren't very light-pigmentend, so that could explain the ancient descriptions.
    So Bosnians are 60% Slavic according to you? I am in agreement with that. I am very sure that Croats and Slovenes are chiefly Slavic with a significant native admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    So Bosnians are 60% Slavic according to you? I am in agreement with that. I am very sure that Croats and Slovenes are chiefly Slavic with a significant native admixture.
    Yes, I'd say it's roughly correct. I'm not on my PC right now and don't have access to regional samples, so I used Poles instead of West Ukrainians in these nMonte models. West Ukrainians fit better and add an additonal 2-3% Slavic ancestry, but the difference is small:

    Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
    Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
    Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
    Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

    Not a very sophisticated model, but the fits are pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally.

    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    You need to explain why Dalmatian Croat males, where I2a1b-CTS10228 peaks at, were 165cm tall in the 1880s, shorter than many other populations(including Albanian Ghegs who stood 171cm in the late 1800s) of that time:


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