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    Post New map of Slavic Y-DNA

    I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458.

    The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

    Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.



    This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 02-05-18 at 12:16.
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    It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.
    What I meant is how did you determine which subclades are Slavic? Did you look at current distributions, frequencies, subclade ages and TMRCA? Or did you also use medieval or ancient DNA from areas where Slavs might have lived?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I meant, to determine which sublcadea are Slavic, did you look at which aubclades have only Slavic speakers today?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    .....................


    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    .....................................


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    .....................


    I have the same question. For instance the user blog from Vayda, has maps for individual subclades within other subclades. He gets very detailed. Even using the entire database from Ftdna. For Instance when speaking about M458, L1029, he indicates the most common cluster in the Balkans for L1029 is B-Eastern which includes YP417. For instance only 20 percent of Bulgarian L1029 is of the B-Western variey(FGC66325, YP444, FGC27553, YP263 and L1029*).

    The L1029 B-Western cluster has the highest percentage in Poland and Germany. The highest diversity however is within these countries as well. This cluster of L1029 as far as the Balkans is common in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Greeks, and now Albanians(myself and my match). Though it is still reaches lower percentages within L1029 compared to B-Eastern.



    The following is the distribution of M458 clades. B-Western is most common in Germany and Poland.

    [IMG]



    Additionally, I belong to L1029*, forming a founder effect somewhere beside YP263 or upstream YP263(downstream from FGC27553). My match that forms a founder effect with me is also Albanian from right over the border from my village(He is from Macedonia). Our TMRCA to our founder clade is between 1600-1000ypb. My relation to other L1029 is a TMRCA of 2000-2300ypb. My closest SNP matches are a Sardinian, Ukrainian, 2 Germans, a Pole from Gdansk, and a Norwegian(albeit a TMRCA of 2000-2300ypb). Only have one close STR match from Beijing China, a native Han chinese who is B-Western, but belonging to basal FGC66325*.

    Per the user Waldemar on anthro, here are the compiled B-Western FGC27553 instances from the R1a project. I am at the top: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2045018272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.
    Where was the Proto-Slavic homeland in your opinion? According to one theory it was Kiev culture, in Northern Ukraine. Slavic expansion in 400 CE - 800 CE according to this theory:

    https://ii.yuki.la/1/71/1ca9e2112ba1...b0e3b65711.png



    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Where was the Proto-Slavic homeland in your opinion? According to one theory it was Kiev culture, in Northern Ukraine. Slavic expansion in 400 CE - 800 CE according to this theory:

    https://ii.yuki.la/1/71/1ca9e2112ba1...b0e3b65711.png



    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm

    I agree, pripjat area.

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    I meant, to determine which sublcadea are Slavic, did you look at which aubclades have only Slavic speakers today?

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    That map looks good.
    It shows how significant was the depopulation of the Balkans during the Medieval and it's population with new, Slavic people, especially in the western Balkans, where the percentage of these Slavic lineages in some places is more than 70%.
    The Slavic lineages in Anatolia can be explained with the historical fact that the Byzantines moved Slavic tribes from Greece to the depopulated areas of Anatolia.
    Some of those Slavic tribes changed alliance and moved in the territory of the Caliphate, hence we find Slavic lineages in northern Mesapotamia as well.
    Also there is more recent factor, the Ottoman Empire, the janissaries and the converted Balkan people that moved in Anatolia after the Ottoman collapse in the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    That map looks good.
    It shows how significant was the depopulation of the Balkans during the Medieval and it's population with new, Slavic people, especially in the western Balkans, where the percentage of these Slavic lineages in some places is more than 70%.
    The Slavic lineages in Anatolia can be explained with the historical fact that the Byzantines moved Slavic tribes from Greece to the depopulated areas of Anatolia.
    Some of those Slavic tribes changed alliance and moved in the territory of the Caliphate, hence we find Slavic lineages in northern Mesapotamia as well.
    Also there is more recent factor, the Ottoman Empire, the janissaries and the converted Balkan people that moved in Anatolia after the Ottoman collapse in the Balkans.
    I dont want to brake you little theory here but:
    Either part of Greece were depopulated and the population replaced with Slavs, or the Slavic input is as low as the second map shows.
    You cant have both.
    The first map is based on a questionable dating method from ONE dating company(russian) based on ONE dating method, in an area of genetics that there isnt a consensus yet.
    The second map though is based on science and representative samples of the individual DNA and the population groups.
    You can take the raw data from one company, and the raw data of a second test from a second company, and analyse them both by the algorithm of a third company or GedMAtch, and they will yield the same matching results more or less.

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    What Slavic people?

    Kutmichevitsa,FYROM,were full of Vlachs,at least,starting with Samuil,the Cometopuli brothers.

    The so-called Macedonian Empire,actually the last part of the First Bulgarian Empire,was formed after the state's Eastern core,Pliska-Preslav, was disintegrated by the pressure coming from the Byzantines and Kievan Rus,led by Svyatoslav.

    The state had moved the headquarters in FYROM,Kutmichevitsa,heavily and mainly relying on Vlachs,because they were living in the western parts of the Bulgarian Empire,that was not affected by the Byzantine and Rus raids and conquests.


    The Cometopuli themselves came from their father,Nicolas,which was the chief of an western komitat,Sredrec(Sofia),and the origin of the family is unknown, it has been speculated,not only by the Romanian historians, that they were Vlachs.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pe_c._1000.jpg


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

    http://www.makedonija.info/samuil.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cometopuli_dynasty

    The Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo:

    https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.


    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?

    This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.

    So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.

    I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.

    So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.

    I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.
    Its possible tho, i dont know for 23andme. Here you can see a quick look at Serbian forum autosomal results
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=603.0

    After page 6, its updated version of FTDNA my origins.
    Less then 30% East is very rare among them. + I believe that Serbs (especially Krajina, Republika srpska and South Serbs ), Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have highest impact of Southeast because of Vlach (Roman leftovers) and Albanian influence. While Bosnjaks (Muslims and Catholics), Slovens and Croats should have even less Southeast and more East.

    However, after arrival on Balkan, their genetics is being enriched with Southeast components in compare to East and North Slavs.
    So except for Slavic element, they for sure have Greko Illyrian or Vlach part in their genetics displayed as Southeast.
    Also later, many of it comes directly from Albanians, especially in Montenegro and South Serbia where assimilation of Albanians is taking place as we speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its possible tho, i dont know for 23andme. Here you can see a quick look at Serbian forum autosomal results
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=603.0

    After page 6, its updated version of FTDNA my origins.
    Less then 30% East is very rare among them. + I believe that Serbs (especially Krajina, Republika srpska and South Serbs ), Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have highest impact of Southeast because of Vlach (Roman leftovers) and Albanian influence. While Bosnjaks (Muslims and Catholics), Slovens and Croats should have even less Southeast and more East.

    However, after arrival on Balkan, their genetics is being enriched with Southeast components in compare to East and North Slavs.
    So except for Slavic element, they for sure have Greko Illyrian or Vlach part in their genetics displayed as Southeast.
    Also later, many of it comes directly from Albanians, especially in Montenegro and South Serbia where assimilation of Albanians is taking place as we speak.
    Krajina Serbs are autosomally the most northern shifted Serbs.
    Among Bosnian and Krajina Serbs R1a is stronger than E-V13, and among Serbs from Serbia R1a and E-V13 are pretty elevated.

    Family finder of 4 Serbs for comparation. One guy is from Lika, one is from Northern Dalmatia, one from Sarajevo (Bosnia) and one from Čačak (Western Serbia)

    Serb from Lika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika



    Serb from Northern Dalmatia (Gornji Karin) https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornji_Karin



    Serb from Sarajevo



    ​Serb from Čačak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Čačak


    Guy from Lika got 80% East Europe and he is a pure Serb, all guys are pure Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.
    Maciamo,what are the calculations of "genome-wide"ancestry based on? If it is 23andme only,then the above conclusion of yours is right...What are the numbers for Serbia,Bulgaria and FYROM on the heatmap? 5-10...or 10-20% ? Seem somehow low...
    Last edited by td120; 03-05-18 at 21:16. Reason: clarif.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally.

    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally. I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    Sorry, I must have misread it. Cool stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    As far as i know the height is increasing towards highest concentration of I2a? By the "ancient population" do you mean before coming to Balkan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs.
    The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

    But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

    But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.
    Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.
    Ancient Romans and Greeks:

    "A research made by prof. G. Kron, university of Victoria, in more than 900 adult males skeletons found in the ancient Italian soil, between 500 BC and 500 AD, revealed that their average height was +/- 170 cm.

    Kron found the mean height of 927 Italian adult males from 500 BC to 500 AD to be 168.3 cm, with no significant trends in height based on region or date. Some isolated findings:

    146 individuals from Pontecagnano (4th-3rd c. BC), mean height 169.1 cm
    49 individuals from Herculaneum (various periods), mean height 169.1 cm
    67 individuals from Civitanova (various periods), mean height 169 cm
    60 individuals from Monte Casaia (various periods), mean height 167.8 cm

    Geoffrey Kron, "Anthropometry, Physical Anthropology, and the Reconstruction of Ancient Health, Nutrition, and Living Standards" (2005).

    Lawrence Angel estimated the height of Ancient Greek males as also around 170 cm."

    More data here:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Persians-Celts

    ======

    There is a study about height in Europe over time, based on 9477 skeletons (link):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Two_Millennia

    As you can see, average height fluctuated over time, it was not constant increase.

    ======

    I also found this data, it is for men only I think:

    Poland:

    11th century - 171 cm (sample size = 216 from Southern Poland)
    1880 - 167 cm
    1968 - 170,5 cm
    2004 - 177,5 cm
    2010 - 178,5 cm

    Norway:

    9th-11th centuries - 173 cm
    12th-14th centuries - 171 cm
    17th-18th centuries - 167 cm
    2nd half of 19th century - 170 cm
    Year 1930 - 172 cm
    2009 - 181,6 cm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.
    In the past 100 years, height change in Europe has been significant. Especially in Nothern Europe.
    european-height.jpg
    I never understood it. And I still don't.
    It seems for the first time in 18,000 years, human height in those regions is what it once was. But of course, there is limited data to go by.
    human-heights-over-the-long-run.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally.

    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    When the invaders brought 70% Y-DNA (in Bosnia) they did also contribute 50% of their autosomal DNA, that's 35% overall autosomal contribution, from men alone, if one assumes that these men were genetically pure or at least close to that. And of course they did brought women with them too.

    I agree that South Slavs are very mixed, especially the southern ones, but I believe their Slavic admixture is underestimated. I may be wrong about that though.

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