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Thread: New map of Slavic Y-DNA

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    5 out of 7 members found this post helpful.

    Post New map of Slavic Y-DNA

    I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458.

    The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

    Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.



    This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 02-05-18 at 12:16.
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    It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?
    I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I meant, to determine which sublcadea are Slavic, did you look at which aubclades have only Slavic speakers today?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    That map looks good.
    It shows how significant was the depopulation of the Balkans during the Medieval and it's population with new, Slavic people, especially in the western Balkans, where the percentage of these Slavic lineages in some places is more than 70%.
    The Slavic lineages in Anatolia can be explained with the historical fact that the Byzantines moved Slavic tribes from Greece to the depopulated areas of Anatolia.
    Some of those Slavic tribes changed alliance and moved in the territory of the Caliphate, hence we find Slavic lineages in northern Mesapotamia as well.
    Also there is more recent factor, the Ottoman Empire, the janissaries and the converted Balkan people that moved in Anatolia after the Ottoman collapse in the Balkans.

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    What Slavic people?

    Kutmichevitsa,FYROM,were full of Vlachs,at least,starting with Samuil,the Cometopuli brothers.

    The so-called Macedonian Empire,actually the last part of the First Bulgarian Empire,was formed after the state's Eastern core,Pliska-Preslav, was disintegrated by the pressure coming from the Byzantines and Kievan Rus,led by Svyatoslav.

    The state had moved the headquarters in FYROM,Kutmichevitsa,heavily and mainly relying on Vlachs,because they were living in the western parts of the Bulgarian Empire,that was not affected by the Byzantine and Rus raids and conquests.


    The Cometopuli themselves came from their father,Nicolas,which was the chief of an western komitat,Sredrec(Sofia),and the origin of the family is unknown, it has been speculated,not only by the Romanian historians, that they were Vlachs.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pe_c._1000.jpg


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

    http://www.makedonija.info/samuil.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cometopuli_dynasty

    The Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo:

    https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.


    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting thread... I agree with most of it.

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    The Macedonians that I've seen on YouTube don't look like Bulgarians or at least a part of them.


    They are much more spirited,active,reactive,extremely determinated,sharing that and especially this with the Albanians, Vlachs and maybe even N-N-W Greeks.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?

    This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.

    So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.

    I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic,
    what is the other 80-90%.

    Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally.

    I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.

    So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.

    I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.

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    Interesting map i would say. Im going to poland soon so I might show them this map. Yep i would also say Slavic people would all score 50% of East Europe, even if they hate to be called Eastern Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.
    Its possible tho, i dont know for 23andme. Here you can see a quick look at Serbian forum autosomal results
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=603.0

    After page 6, its updated version of FTDNA my origins.
    Less then 30% East is very rare among them. + I believe that Serbs (especially Krajina, Republika srpska and South Serbs ), Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have highest impact of Southeast because of Vlach (Roman leftovers) and Albanian influence. While Bosnjaks (Muslims and Catholics), Slovens and Croats should have even less Southeast and more East.

    However, after arrival on Balkan, their genetics is being enriched with Southeast components in compare to East and North Slavs.
    So except for Slavic element, they for sure have Greko Illyrian or Vlach part in their genetics displayed as Southeast.
    Also later, many of it comes directly from Albanians, especially in Montenegro and South Serbia where assimilation of Albanians is taking place as we speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally. I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.
    Sorry, I must have misread it. Cool stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458.

    The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

    Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.



    This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

    Is I2a1b Slavic?

    Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now


    1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Is I2a1b Slavic?

    Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now

    1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin
    I know, I wrote that page 7 years ago. But you are a few years late if you still question I2b1b-CTS10228 as a Slavic lineage. It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...avic-expansion

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nt-Slavic-king

    You might find this summary useful too.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I know, I wrote that page 7 years ago. But you are a few years late if you still question I2b1b-CTS10228 as a Slavic lineage. It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...avic-expansion

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nt-Slavic-king

    You might find this summary useful too.
    "It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum"

    So what?You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Is I2a1b Slavic?

    Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now

    1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin
    I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch.

    For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458.

    The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

    Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.



    This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

    Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

    For now only genetic research suggests that Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina has 83% of Slavic I2a1b and R1a branches.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

    Some I2a1b and R1a branches can be and Vlach origin, not original but assimilated.

    For now do not exist younger subclades so we can not reconstruct local migration, but in the future we will know it and then we'll be more accurate. Because we do not know whether branch I-S17250 in Croatian Serbs come from Greece with Vlachs, from Serbia with Slavic Serbians or is it local Croatian. Roughly I2a1b I-S17250 is Slavic (White Croatian) but later descendant mutations become Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian, Macedonian, Vlach, Aromanian.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch.

    For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.
    I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.
    It is the only subclade or branch that can be linked to White Croats((there are probably other ones from that period)),.. all previously mutations belong to ancestors of White Croatians but who knows all the names which they had then. Older mutations in fact have nothing to do with tribe of White Croatians becouse White Croatians are formed by mixing I2a1b and R1a subclades in southern Poland before 2000 years, meaning that only those branches age 2000 years to the present time have something to do with Croats.

    When R1a comes to Poland and gets mixed with I2a1b then we can talk about Slavic I2a1b subclades, but I'm talking about White Croatian Slavs. You probably know when R1a comes to Poland? And from that time we can talk about the Slavs but I do not know exactly time of mixing R1a and I2a1b in Poland.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch.

    For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.
    You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

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    The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

    In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

    The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?
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