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Thread: Ancient East, West and North Germanics had different Y-DNA lineages

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    9 out of 9 members found this post helpful.

    Post Ancient East, West and North Germanics had different Y-DNA lineages

    One of the most exciting and fascinating aspects of Y-DNA analysis is to be able to retrace the lineages of ancient peoples and their migrations or colonisations. It's intellectually stimulating because there are so many Y-DNA lineages all mixed up nowadays that need to be disentangled to make sense of what happened in history. I have already identified most if not all the ancient Roman Y-haplogroups and we also have a pretty good idea of what the ancient Celtic and Slavic haplogroups were. The latest additions were E-V13 and J2b2-Z628 (aka Z597) among the original Slavic, Celtic, Italic but also Germanic lineages, all descended from a common Proto-Indo-European source around the Carpathians.


    Core Germanic lineages

    All Germanic people shared I1 and R1b-U106 lineages in various proportions, with West Germanics having the highest percentage of R1b-U106, North Germanics the highest I1, and East Germanics the highest E-V13. Both I2a2a-L801 and R1a-L664 are also found among North and West Germanics, but may be absent from East Germanics.

    Lineages of Alpine Celtic or Italic origin such as R1b-U152 and G2a-L497 are also found among all Germanic peoples, although they are rarer in Norway and Sweden.

    A specific subset of subclades appear to have expanded together during the Iron Age from southern Scandinavia (Denmark and Scania) and are now found in all North and West Germanic populations (East Germanics may have originated in another part of Scandinavia). I will call them the core Germanic clades. These include two large branches of R1b-U106, namely R1b-Z18 (TMRCA 3800 ybp, but most of its subclades are under 2200 years old) and R1b-L48 (4700 ybp), the L22 (4000 ybp) and Z382 (3400 ybp) branches of I1 and all clades downstream of I2a2a-L801 (4100 ybp). It is likely that some E-V13 clades were also part of the blend, but they haven't been identified yet (although a good candidate is E-L540, with is mostly found in/around Germany and Scandinavia).


    North Germanic lineages

    Modern Scandinavians have unique Y-haplogroups that are usually not found anywhere else except in places settled by the Vikings. These include N1c1-L550 (TMRCA 2900 ybp) , Q1a2-L527 (3100 ybp), Q1a2-L804 (3200 ybp), R1a-Z284 (4300 ybp) and R1b-L238 (4500 ybp). The last one is also found in North Germany, Poland and Britain, but the vast majority of individuals in this haplogroup belong to the almost exclusively Nordic Y10824 clade (TMRCA 1700 ybp).

    Aside from that North Germanic have a higher frequency of I1 than other Germanics and several I1 branches are typically Nordic, such as I1-Y11221 (TMRCA 3000 ybp), I1-L22 (4000 ybp) and I1-Z382 (3400 ybp).

    R1a-L664 branches that are of Nordic origin are R1a-S2894 and R1a-S3479.


    West Germanic lineages

    The majority of R1b-U106 clades are found in West Germanic countries. Some of them include Celto-Germanic lineages from central and northern Germany and the Low Countries that only became Germanic after Germanic tribes descended from Scandinavia from 750 BCE onwards. That is the case of large branches like R1b-DF96 (3800 ybp) and R1b-U198 (3400 ybp)and many minor branches (that is to say most branches except DF98, Z18 and L48).

    Other R1b clades than U106 are also unique to West Germanics, such as R1b-DF19 (4500 ybp, found in Germany, the Benelux, France, Britain and Ireland) and R1b-DF99 (4200 ybp, found in West Germany, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland).

    The principal West Germanic branch of I1 is I1-Z138 (4600 ybp). All other branches under Z59 or CTS6364 have a strong presence in Scandinavia, but many are also found in West Germanic countries, especially downstream of L22 and Z382.

    The R1a-S2857 branch of L664 appears to be West Germanic, while the minor YP5527 branch could be Celtic or Celto-Germanic but later assimilated by Germanic tribes.


    East Germanic lineages

    I have been trying to identify the Y-DNA of the Goths and Vandals for a while as these were two unusual Germanic tribes. They were both East Germanic, and therefore more distantly related to West Germanics like the Anglo-Saxons, Franks and Lombards, or to the North Germanics who remained in Scandinavia and later became the Vikings.

    The main I1 lineage of the East Germanics appear to have been the Z63 branch and more specifically I1-BY351 and I1-S2078. These are found in all places along the migration path of the Goths, from Germany and Poland to Ukraine, the Balkans (and Turkey), Hungary, Switzerland, Italy (including Sardinia), Spain and Portugal.

    Interestingly, two other major Germanic haplogroups, I2a2a-L801 and R1a-L664 appear to be mostly absent from Eastern and Southern Europe (except I-L801 in northern Sicily, presumably of Norman origin), which indicates that these lineages were not present among the East Germanic tribes, but principally among North and West Germanics.

    The Goths almost certainly mixed with Slavic tribes in Poland and Ukraine, as R1a-CTS1211 is found in all the places they settled, such as Italy, southern France and Spain (and obviously in the Balkans although it is mixed with later CTS1211 from the South Slavic expansion).
    On the other hand it seems that the Goths possessed a considerable percentage of E-V13, probably acquired in East Germany, Poland and Ukraine. I am increasingly convinced that several large branches of E-V13 were brought to Central Europe during the Corded Ware period and expanded during the Unetice and Tumulus periods. Some in the south would become Hallstatt and Italic lineages, while those in the North would be assimilated by the Germanic tribes who descended from Scandinavia during the Iron Age. The Goths would have spread those E-V13 lineages from the North European Plain to the Balkans, Italy and Spain. The E-V13 phylogeny is still too incomplete to know for sure at the moment, but good candidates include the CTS9320 branch (3000 years old, found in Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia, Albania, Greece, northern Italy, Sardinia but also Norway), L241 (found in Ukraine, Romania and Sardinia) and the S2972 (found among the Chuvash, in Macedonia, Bosnia and Sardinia, but also Ireland). These clades may have originated during the Unetice period and could be shared with Celts too.

    It's hard to estimate the proportion of each haplogroup that the Goths would have carried, mostly because E-V13 is a pan-Indo-European lineage and its deep clades haven't been well studied. In 2015 I hypothesised that a group of Goths from the Carpathians migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed substantial ancestry to the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars based on their considerable percentages of I1-Z63, R1b-U106, R1a-M458 and R1a-CTS1211. Of course a lot of CTS1211 came from Slavic Russians. But if we include only the I1 and R1b-U106, the Mordvins and Chuvash have 7% of it and the Tatars 17%. They also have a bit of I2a2a. I originally assumed it would be the Germanic L801, but it now rather seems to be the East European L701, which makes sense since I2-L801 isn't so rare in places settled by the Goths. However they also have high percentages of E-V13 and I recently found on the FTDNA Project for Mordovia a individual who tested positive for the E-Z17264 (2500 ybp) clade downstream of CTS9320, which is also found in Greece and Sardinia! It's also the one found in Norway. With such a young TMRCA, it can only have been spread by the Goths to places so remote from each others.

    Also noteworthy is the presence of very young clades of J2b2-Z628 in the Volga-Ural region. The Mordvins, Tatars and Bashkirs all possess between 4% and 10% of J2b2 and it seems to be exclusively the J-Y12000 formed 2500 years ago and with a TMRCA of 1450 years. But the truly interesting thing is that its parent clade, J-Z8429 (TMRCA 2700 ybp), is found in Norway, Germany, Czechia, Italy and Spain! Once again it could have been spread by the Goths.

    If the frequencies observed in the Volga-Ural region are any indication, the Goths could have possessed more E-V13 (3-14%), J2b2 (4-10%), R1a-M458 (2-5%) and R1a-CTS1211 (? probably more than 7%) than either I1 (3-10%) or R1b-U106 (3-7%). But a strong founder effect could have changed completely the original proportions, so let's remain careful. In any case, if I1-Z63 might be the least ambiguous indicator of Gothic ancestry in southern Europe. In Italy, southern France and Spain, R1a-CTS1211 can also only be Gothic. But the combined percentage should certainly be doubled, if not tripled to account for the E-V13, J2b2 and R1b-U106 that cannot yet distinguished from other historical peoples who brought them to southern Europe. In the Balkans, if we use only I1-Z63 as a proxy for Gothic Y-DNA, the percentage could easily be quadrupled. It wouldn't be surprising to find up to 20% of Gothic paternal lineages (i.e. mixed Slavo-Germanic Y-DNA brought by the Gothic confederacy) in parts of the Balkans like western Bulgaria or Serbia.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-06-18 at 20:09.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In any case, if I1-Z63 might be the least ambiguous indicator of Gothic ancestry in southern Europe. In Italy, southern France and Spain, R1a-CTS1211 can also only be Gothic.
    IIRC, according to what I read a few years ago, there are some medieval texts there indicate the presence (minor though) of Slavic immigrants in the Italian peninsula. I know it mustn't have been a very extensive immigration, but it seems to have existed in some parts of the country and were probably soon assimilated, as they were minor and disperse. That said, I agree most of the CTS1211 in Italy must've come earlier with the Goths (that's especially clear due to its otherwise unexplainable presence in North Spain) and maybe even, with a lesser impact, other invaders that sojourned in Eastern Europe like Huns and Lombards.

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    When do you think did Swedes absorb N1c and from whom?

    We now have 3,500 years old N1c-L1026 from the Kola Peninsula, Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov:

    "Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and BOO004. Haplogroup N1c, to which this haplotype belongs, is the major Y chromosomal lineage in modern North-East Europe and European Russia, especially in Uralic speakers, for example comprising as much as 54% of Eastern Finnish male lineages today. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia. The 3,500-year-old ancient individuals from Bolshoy evidence the earliest presence, as well as the highest proportion of Siberian ancestry in this region."

    They clustered with Mansi, modern Sami are more mixed with Finns, Swedes and Russians:

    I suppose that Y-DNA haplogroup I1-M253 among Sami comes from this recent mixing:

    https://d8v5jhqx5tv4l.cloudfront.net...candia-pca.png



    I think that first N1c in Sweden could come there with Bronze Age Net Ware culture:

    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA13_51.pdf


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Other R1b clades than U106 are also unique to West Germanics, such as R1b-DF19 (4500 ybp, found in Germany, the Benelux, France, Britain and Ireland) and R1b-DF99 (4200 ybp, found in West Germany, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland).
    Ancient DNA evidence shows that DF19 was present among Insular Celts or Romano-Britons:

    Sample 6DRIF-23, Eburacum (modern York), 100-400 CE was R1b-DF19.

    That sample does not show any signs of autosomal Germanic admixture (unlike U106 samples).

    Two R1b-U106 samples, the ones with possible Germanic/continental admixture, were these:

    R1b-U106>S497:

    Sample 3DRIF-16, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 CE.

    R1b-U106>S497>DF98:

    Sample 6DRIF-3, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 CE.

    On the other hand, it is also possible that some deep subclades of U106 are originally Celtic.

    This is possible especially since the discovery of R1b-U106 in ancient Czechia (Unetice culture):

    I7196, Czech Republic, Jinonice, Unetice culture, 2200-1700 BCE, R1b-U106.


    It is a rather advanced stage of demographic development of U106, because this individual is positive for many downstream SNPs (according to Ian McDonland he is U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > Z381 > Z156 > Z305/Z306/Z307/Z8191 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894/S1900).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    When do you think did Swedes absorb N1c and from whom?

    We now have 3,500 years old N1c-L1026 from the Kola Peninsula, Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov:
    Scandinavians N1c falls exclusively under the L550 branch, also found in Finland, which according to Yfull formed 3300 ybp and has a TMRCA of 2900 ybp. L550 descends from VL29 (4000 years old), which is also ancestral to the East Chudes of Karelia and West Chudes of Estonia. So the point of entry is probably Karelia about 4000 ybp, whence L550 spread all over Finland and northern Scandinavia from c. 3000 years ago. So yes, it does correspond to the expansion of the Bronze Age Net Ware culture. That also explains why West and East Germanics lack N1c, as it only mixed with North Germanics in historical times, after other Germanic tribes left southern Scandinavia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Ancient DNA evidence shows that DF19 was present among Insular Celts or Romano-Britons:

    Sample 6DRIF-23, Eburacum (modern York), 100-400 CE was R1b-DF19.

    That sample does not show any signs of autosomal Germanic admixture (unlike U106 samples).

    Two R1b-U106 samples, the ones with possible Germanic/continental admixture, were these:

    R1b-U106>S497:

    Sample 3DRIF-16, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 CE.

    R1b-U106>S497>DF98:

    Sample 6DRIF-3, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 CE.

    On the other hand, it is also possible that some deep subclades of U106 are originally Celtic.

    This is possible especially since the discovery of R1b-U106 in ancient Czechia (Unetice culture):

    I7196, Czech Republic, Jinonice, Unetice culture, 2200-1700 BCE, R1b-U106.


    It is a rather advanced stage of demographic development of U106, because this individual is positive for many downstream SNPs (according to Ian McDonland he is U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > Z381 > Z156 > Z305/Z306/Z307/Z8191 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894/S1900).

    I know, but as I wrote above DF19 is one of the lineages I described as originally "Celto-Germanic" (for lack of a better term), which in fact is neither properly Celtic nor Germanic, but represent related R1b tribes that lived in between the two groups in central Germany and the Low Countries from about 2500 BCE to the time they became absorbed by Germanic tribes between 500 BCE and the early centuries CE. This is why DF19, DF98 and the other lineages that I list as specifically West Germanic are only found among West Germanics! If all had originated in the Germanic core in southern Scandinavia they would be found among all Germanic peoples.

    Human population history is just a long series of migrations, intermingling and assimilations during which new ethnic groups are formed. It could be said that the original Germanics have virtually disappeared in their original Late Bronze to Early Iron Age form. West Germanics mixed with the indigenous tribes of West Germany and the Netherlands before expanding to Britain and France. East Germanics mixed with the tribes that were living in East Germany, Poland and Ukraine. North Germanics later mixed with Saami from the North.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The majority of R1b-U106 clades are found in West Germanic countries. Some of them include Celto-Germanic lineages from central and northern Germany and the Low Countries that only became Germanic after Germanic tribes descended from Scandinavia from 750 BCE onwards. That is the case of large branches like R1b-DF96 (3800 ybp)
    I wonder if R-L1 is an exception to this considering its frequency within Finland, it's also curious that it is the only subclade of Z156 let alone DF96 represented in the nation from what I can find.

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    Good work Maciamo,thank you :)

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    Very interesting and easy to read and to comprehend. Thank you Maciamo.

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    Other R1b clades than U106 are also unique to West Germanics, such as R1b-DF19 (4500 ybp, found in Germany, the Benelux, France, Britain and Ireland) and R1b-DF99(4200 ybp, found in West Germany, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland).

    So do you think R1b-DF19 is west germanic or celtic?

    Kind regards

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    To what extent can this evidence (different Y-DNA makeup in different groups of Germanic language speakers) indicate that Proto-Germanic (as it actually seems like considering its very late period in comparison to other IE branches, most estimates ranging from 500 BC to 1 AD) was actually some kind of Northern European expansive language of the late Iron Age probably absorbing other sister and even unrelated (non-Germanic) IE languages? (was it a widespread trade lingua franca? A new prestige language linked to powerful tribes' conquests and suzerainty?)

    There is still very little investigation on what exactly must've happened between the supposed early split of Proto-Germanic around 3000 BC and the period around 500 BC-1 AD when a huge stretch of Northern Europe came to speak one common language (the fact that it was still undifferentiated until the early Common Era suggests that its expansion was not a very ancient affair, so Proto-Germanic was most definitely not the language of the Nordic Bronze Age... maybe its "mother" language was).

    Just like, much later, Germanic speakers absorbed so many Celtic and even Romance speakers, I wouldn't find it unlikely that only part of those Y-DNA haplogroups were really strongly associated with the first speakers of Pre-Proto-Germanic in the Bronze Age, and the rest were gradually absorbed and Germanized ethnicities that then went on to develop their own slightly distinct Proto-Germanic dialects. That may be especially likely if Germanic really sprang from some cultural mix of CWC and Bell Beaker elements.

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    There are two subclades of the I-L38 haplogroup that they undoubtly expanded during the age of the migration of the Germanics people. These subclades are the following:


    I-PH1237: This subclade is splited in two more subclades according Yfull both were formed 4.300 years ago. The BY14026 subclade with members from England, Denmark, Greece, Romania, Poland and Tartaristan; and the PH2591subclade with members from United Kingdom, France, Croatia, Denmark, Sweden and Russia.


    I-FGC36959: According to Yfull was formed 3.500 years ago. Its members are from United Kingdom, Ireland, Denmark and Norway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Other R1b clades than U106 are also unique to West Germanics, such as R1b-DF19 (4500 ybp, found in Germany, the Benelux, France, Britain and Ireland) and R1b-DF99 (4200 ybp, found in West Germany, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland).
    DF-99 is also found in Italy. In lower quantities, but Italy is undertested when compared to Germany, Britain and Ireland.

    Isn't possible that it was spread by romans or other italic peoples, maybe even alpine tribes, like raetians?

    Also, the only ancient DF-99 individual found (Colegno) was autossomically closer to iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Other R1b clades than U106 are also unique to West Germanics, such as R1b-DF19 (4500 ybp, found in Germany, the Benelux, France, Britain and Ireland) and R1b-DF99 (4200 ybp, found in West Germany, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland).
    DF-99 is also found in Italy. In lower quantities, but Italy is undertested when compared to Germany, Britain and Ireland.


    Isn't possible that it was spread by romans or other italic peoples, maybe even alpine tribes, like raetians?


    Also, the only ancient DF-99 individual found (Colegno) was autossomically closer to iberians.

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    Fascinating, many thanks for this, Maciamo. Perhaps with more testing in Germany and the Low Countries, we may begin to get a better understanding of specific tribal boundaries and migrations.
    Last edited by Sam Boyer; 16-08-18 at 06:18.

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    "A specific subset of subclades appear to have expanded together during the Iron Age from southern Scandinavia (Denmark and Scania) and are now found in all North and West Germanic populations (East Germanics may have originated in another part of Scandinavia).":

    Maciamo, you do assume Germanics have expanded from Southern Scandinavia.

    This maybe common view (it was however not common before Gustaf Kossinna) seems to me doubtful. If not even not applicable.

    A linguistical approach, examining place and water names, suggests Southern Lower Saxony and the area left of the Elbe river up to Thuringia to be the originating area of Germanic language. This area also has a very fertile soil (Löss) and is capable to feed a population in high numbers, which is advantagous for an event of expansion and domination of other areas.

    Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, 1994, partially free here: XXXhttps://books.google.de/books/about/Namenkundliche_Studien_zum_Germanenprobl.html?id=X eIgAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_but ton&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false (remove XXX at the link. I was not allowed here to post links) exhaustingly examines place and water names on abt. 1000 pages and he comes to the conclusion, the only area, where ALL Germanic name stems in place names are present is within the mentioned area. In this area there are also non-Germanic water names, leading back to an IE name layer.

    This is what we have to expect from the originating area of Germanic language. Especially we can not expect the originating area of Germanic language to show just Germanic water names.

    If we now look at Scandinavian place names and water names, we can determine they are extremely monotonous and poor in forms. Most rivers are named "-älv". Älv in Scandinavian also linguistically means (big) river and is derived from the name of the Elbe river (this is common sense among linguists)! The Elbe river name in turn is not Germanic, but from the IE layer. Well, the rather basic term älv in Scandinavian language will hardly by indigenous to Scandinavia people have been derived from a far away river, where they not yet have been.
    Also, the extremely monotonous Germanic place names in Scandinavia are typical for an area, which was culturalized fast and within a restricted time frame. It´s known in linguistics and it is also logic, the areas of many different dialects regularly are the origin and not the big areas, where there is the same language in vast areals. You can easily recognize the Americas with basically just English, Spanish and Portuguese were colonised from Europe and not vice versa.

    What time period is this about? Udolph did not like to burden his rather clear findings regarding a relative chronology with maybe false statements about absolute times. If he was forced to make a guess he stated he could imagine Germanic language - resp. what later became Germanic by definition (erste Lautverschiebung) - entered Denmark and Scandinavia as late as 500 BCE.

    What all this means in terms of genetics and migrations in numbers is another question. But such expansion will not have happened without any migration.

    Would this scenario be incompatible with your Y DNA considerations?

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