Lazaridis summary of Europe population genetics

Angela

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It's a short summary of where we stand, clearly written, as is usual for him, and showing an open-mindedness about where the samples will take us. Refreshing in light of the bombastic certainty often springing from an agenda which is a hallmark of the internet pop gen universe.

See;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ybnv1qqiowbtfz0/Europe_arXiv.pdf?dl=0
 
At ~15kya a largely homogeneous set of hunter-gatherers became dominant in most of Europe, but with some admixture from Siberian hunter-gatherers in the eastern part of the continent. These hunter-gatherers were joined by migrants from the Near East beginning at ~8kya: Anatolian farmers settled most of mainland Europe, and migrants from the Caucasus reached e astern Europe, forming steppe populations. After ~5kya there was migration from the steppe into mainland Europe and vice versa. Present-day Europeans (ignoring the long-distance migrations of the modern era) are largely the product of this Bronze Age collision of steppe pastoralists with Neolithic farmers.

Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.

Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?
 
Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.
Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?
If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?
 
Ok so i do not understand anymore, is Lazaridis clearly implying that R1b came from siberia ?
 
If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?

But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?
 
But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?
Good question. Too early to draw a picture. We need lots of samples for west, central, south (Italy?) in the 4th millennium to have a clear picture.
If some are correct...then yes, eastern bell beakers, R1b, IE speakers really came west alright didn't they?
 
If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?
if so, it were only the Anatolian or older languages, without wheel vocabulary, not Armenian and/or Greek
 
afaik, in the original paper there was not mention of a Belgian sample in the Vestonice cluster
was this published later? can anyone tell me?
 
ok

I got it,

When Neolithic Anatolian farmers and Caucasus hunter gatherers met Eastern hunter gatherers they fall in great love,
 
if so, it were only the Anatolian or older languages, without wheel vocabulary, not Armenian and/or Greek
I dont think wheel is a good word for what you want to transmite as word Car would not be aswell.
But do explain the wheel mantra again. I mean it, its always useful.
Someone here explained once that wheel come from the word snail because in northwestern Iran ('oh again) there are crude wheel (rods) from 6th mileniium bc. Those things should really be slow to push/pull. Have no idea. Who knows.
Anyway, i think linguistics is a bit like voodo or Nostradamus writings. Because written form is much later than population contacts over millennium in adjoining spaces.
So...lots of grains of salt.
 
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Both
Minoans and Mycenaeans[45], and to a much lesser extent Neolithic samples from the
Peloponnese and Bulgaria also had ancestry related to Caucasus hunter-gatherers, suggesting that
this ancestry did not come to Europe only via migrations from the steppe, but also independently,
perhaps reflecting ancestry from different Anatolian source populations......I am wondering who these people were?


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Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.

Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?

There's a school of thought that the Uralic influences are a later addition to IE languages. What Lazaridis is suggesting is that it is possible that "Proto" IE formed south of the Caucasus, then moved onto the steppe. That would mean that the Uralic influence was added later.
 
ok

I got it,

When Neolithic Anatolian farmers and Caucasus hunter gatherers met Eastern hunter gatherers they fall in great love,

The Neolithic Anatolian farmer portion may have been added in Europe.

I doubt love was often involved.
 
But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?

I don't know. We do have J2a etc. in Spain. Old genetic analyses do show "Caucasus" or "West Asian" although I'm skeptical of calculator clusters based on modern samples.
 
Ok so why are we avoid the " admixture related to siberian HG " 15'000 kya ?
 
The Neolithic Anatolian farmer portion may have been added in Europe.

I doubt love was often involved.

Some time is love [emoji175] some time is lust.....


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If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?

What I'm hypothesizing is not one, but two sources for PIE, which is the congealing of two (or more) language strains, Proto-Uralic (R1a) and Proto-Caucasian (R1b). The birthplace, and birthperiod, if you will, of PIE and the origin and migratory path of R1b are separate questions. You only need to trace the derivative languages within the language family back to where and when they were shared. Is there any evidence that R1b populations in NW Iran, for instance, spoke a form of PIE?

The latest studies, it seems to me, have sunk the idea of R1b IE speakers taking "2 routes" to Western Europe. They don't eliminate successive "waves", however ("The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe," 2018):

Our genetic time transect in Britain also allowed us to track the frequencies of alleles with 273 known phenotypic effects. Derived alleles at rs12913832 (SLC45A2) and rs16891982 (HERC2/OCA2), which contribute to reduced skin and eye pigmentation in Europeans, dramatically increased in frequency during the Beaker and Bronze Age periods (Extended Data 276 Fig. 5). Thus, the arrival of migrants associated with the Beaker Complex significantly altered the pigmentation phenotypes of British populations. However, the lactase persistence allele at SNP rs4988235 remained at very low frequencies in our dataset both in Britain and continental Europe, showing that the major increase in its frequency in Britain, as in mainland Europe, occurred in the last 3,500 years.

Two waves, the former carrying reduced skin/eye pigmentation into Britain (c.2,000 BCE?), but not lactase-persistence, but the latter carrying both (c.1,500 BCE?). If anything, the latter were better armed...
 
There's a school of thought that the Uralic influences are a later addition to IE languages. What Lazaridis is suggesting is that it is possible that "Proto" IE formed south of the Caucasus, then moved onto the steppe. That would mean that the Uralic influence was added later.

You'd have to assume that PIE was spoken exclusively by an R1b population that carried it into the steppes, where it was adopted by a previously proto-Uralic-speaking R1a population. If both significantly contributed to what became the IE language family, however, which was earlier or later is irrelevant, it seems to me, at least as far as PIE is concerned. The Cucuteni language probably also contributed. Was PIE originally a trading language, a pidgin?
 
The latest studies, it seems to me, have sunk the idea of R1b IE speakers taking "2 routes" to Western Europe. They don't eliminate successive "waves", however ("The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe," 2018):

...

What are you talking about?
If anything, the latest studies open the possibility of at least of 2 routes to western Europe for IE, R1b or not. Especially if we see the assumed source of it (CHG/IranN laden people) dispersing at exactly same time from caucasus to Steppe and to Balkans via Anatolia.
Latest studies say CHG arrived at Khvalynsk and south Balkans via Anatolia at same time. So they spoke the same language.
 

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