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Thread: Lazaridis summary of Europe population genetics

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    Lazaridis summary of Europe population genetics

    It's a short summary of where we stand, clearly written, as is usual for him, and showing an open-mindedness about where the samples will take us. Refreshing in light of the bombastic certainty often springing from an agenda which is a hallmark of the internet pop gen universe.

    See;
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ybnv1qqiow...arXiv.pdf?dl=0


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    Very clear and concise recap of what we know, and the questions being asked.

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    At ~15kya a largely homogeneous set of hunter-gatherers became dominant in most of Europe, but with some admixture from Siberian hunter-gatherers in the eastern part of the continent. These hunter-gatherers were joined by migrants from the Near East beginning at ~8kya: Anatolian farmers settled most of mainland Europe, and migrants from the Caucasus reached e astern Europe, forming steppe populations. After ~5kya there was migration from the steppe into mainland Europe and vice versa. Present-day Europeans (ignoring the long-distance migrations of the modern era) are largely the product of this Bronze Age collision of steppe pastoralists with Neolithic farmers.
    Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.

    Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.
    Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?
    If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?

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    Ok so i do not understand anymore, is Lazaridis clearly implying that R1b came from siberia ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?
    But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?
    Good question. Too early to draw a picture. We need lots of samples for west, central, south (Italy?) in the 4th millennium to have a clear picture.
    If some are correct...then yes, eastern bell beakers, R1b, IE speakers really came west alright didn't they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?
    if so, it were only the Anatolian or older languages, without wheel vocabulary, not Armenian and/or Greek

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    afaik, in the original paper there was not mention of a Belgian sample in the Vestonice cluster
    was this published later? can anyone tell me?

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    ok

    I got it,

    When Neolithic Anatolian farmers and Caucasus hunter gatherers met Eastern hunter gatherers they fall in great love,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if so, it were only the Anatolian or older languages, without wheel vocabulary, not Armenian and/or Greek
    I dont think wheel is a good word for what you want to transmite as word Car would not be aswell.
    But do explain the wheel mantra again. I mean it, its always useful.
    Someone here explained once that wheel come from the word snail because in northwestern Iran ('oh again) there are crude wheel (rods) from 6th mileniium bc. Those things should really be slow to push/pull. Have no idea. Who knows.
    Anyway, i think linguistics is a bit like voodo or Nostradamus writings. Because written form is much later than population contacts over millennium in adjoining spaces.
    So...lots of grains of salt.
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 05-05-18 at 15:02.

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    Lazaridis summary of Europe population genetics

    Both
    Minoans and Mycenaeans[45], and to a much lesser extent Neolithic samples from the
    Peloponnese and Bulgaria also had ancestry related to Caucasus hunter-gatherers, suggesting that
    this ancestry did not come to Europe only via migrations from the steppe, but also independently,
    perhaps reflecting ancestry from different Anatolian source populations......I am wondering who these people were?


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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.

    Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?
    There's a school of thought that the Uralic influences are a later addition to IE languages. What Lazaridis is suggesting is that it is possible that "Proto" IE formed south of the Caucasus, then moved onto the steppe. That would mean that the Uralic influence was added later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ok

    I got it,

    When Neolithic Anatolian farmers and Caucasus hunter gatherers met Eastern hunter gatherers they fall in great love,
    The Neolithic Anatolian farmer portion may have been added in Europe.

    I doubt love was often involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    But this fountain through Anatolia stayed in in the southeast or continued to the west?
    I don't know. We do have J2a etc. in Spain. Old genetic analyses do show "Caucasus" or "West Asian" although I'm skeptical of calculator clusters based on modern samples.

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    Ok so why are we avoid the " admixture related to siberian HG " 15'000 kya ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Neolithic Anatolian farmer portion may have been added in Europe.

    I doubt love was often involved.
    Some time is love some time is lust.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    If as we are seeing there was a migration of people in the 5th Millenium bc (and later) from east to west, bringing CHG/iranN from Caucasus to southeastern europe across anatolia (kum6), and if it was from the possible source of PIE (the same that went to steppe) as is now being put forward by these people, then a very similar IE came to europe from at least 2 routes , did it not?
    What I'm hypothesizing is not one, but two sources for PIE, which is the congealing of two (or more) language strains, Proto-Uralic (R1a) and Proto-Caucasian (R1b). The birthplace, and birthperiod, if you will, of PIE and the origin and migratory path of R1b are separate questions. You only need to trace the derivative languages within the language family back to where and when they were shared. Is there any evidence that R1b populations in NW Iran, for instance, spoke a form of PIE?

    The latest studies, it seems to me, have sunk the idea of R1b IE speakers taking "2 routes" to Western Europe. They don't eliminate successive "waves", however ("The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe," 2018):

    Our genetic time transect in Britain also allowed us to track the frequencies of alleles with 273 known phenotypic effects. Derived alleles at rs12913832 (SLC45A2) and rs16891982 (HERC2/OCA2), which contribute to reduced skin and eye pigmentation in Europeans, dramatically increased in frequency during the Beaker and Bronze Age periods (Extended Data 276 Fig. 5). Thus, the arrival of migrants associated with the Beaker Complex significantly altered the pigmentation phenotypes of British populations. However, the lactase persistence allele at SNP rs4988235 remained at very low frequencies in our dataset both in Britain and continental Europe, showing that the major increase in its frequency in Britain, as in mainland Europe, occurred in the last 3,500 years.
    Two waves, the former carrying reduced skin/eye pigmentation into Britain (c.2,000 BCE?), but not lactase-persistence, but the latter carrying both (c.1,500 BCE?). If anything, the latter were better armed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's a school of thought that the Uralic influences are a later addition to IE languages. What Lazaridis is suggesting is that it is possible that "Proto" IE formed south of the Caucasus, then moved onto the steppe. That would mean that the Uralic influence was added later.
    You'd have to assume that PIE was spoken exclusively by an R1b population that carried it into the steppes, where it was adopted by a previously proto-Uralic-speaking R1a population. If both significantly contributed to what became the IE language family, however, which was earlier or later is irrelevant, it seems to me, at least as far as PIE is concerned. The Cucuteni language probably also contributed. Was PIE originally a trading language, a pidgin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    The latest studies, it seems to me, have sunk the idea of R1b IE speakers taking "2 routes" to Western Europe. They don't eliminate successive "waves", however ("The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe," 2018):

    ...
    What are you talking about?
    If anything, the latest studies open the possibility of at least of 2 routes to western Europe for IE, R1b or not. Especially if we see the assumed source of it (CHG/IranN laden people) dispersing at exactly same time from caucasus to Steppe and to Balkans via Anatolia.
    Latest studies say CHG arrived at Khvalynsk and south Balkans via Anatolia at same time. So they spoke the same language.

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    The influences on IE include the CAUCASIAN language family, so obviously there were people in the Caucasus and south of it who didn't speak IE or Proto-IE, so there's no reason that the CHG heavy but also ANF like people who went to Europe from Anatolia need have spoken IE languages, and in fact I highly doubt they did. See Bicicleur's post above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Little question it seems to me that European IE languages came from the steppes. The only question is where/when Proto-Indo-European congealed - I suspect it was the fusing of mainly R1b and R1a steppe tribes into a common culture and language.

    Just speculating, but was PIE formed from a merger of Proto-Uralic and Proto-Caucasian language strains? Not a single, but a double, source?
    Languages rarely mix in that way, so extensive that they can hardly be identified to have one source, diluted though because of profound external influences. That usually happened in situations of colonization involving a lot of people who spoke very different languages, with no language clearly prevailing either in number or in prestige. I think the characteristics of the Neolithic/Bronze Age steppe weren't very adequate for such an appearance of a completely mixed or even creole language.

    What I think is definitely very possible, even probable, considering the huge transformation during the Neolithization and later societal and technological developments in the steppes, is that a much more common phenomenon happened, that is, a substantial introgression of a foreign language's lexicon and even some of its grammar into an indigenous language. The direction could've been from CHG-heavy speakers to EHG-heavy speakers or vice-versa. I'm still not sure where PIE exactly came, but I'd definitely bet that there was substantial intermingling (not just genetic, but also cultural) between CHG and EHG to change the face of PIE in relation to its former pre-PIE stage.

    However, I don't believe this pre-PIE was "Uralic" or a sister (or more specifically aunt) language to Proto-Uralic. The differences are too profound, extremely more profound than the similarities between IE and Uralic, and if we take the example of a heavily transformed language like Modern English you can still see that the basis of the language's vocabulary and especially grammar keeps living in the daughter language despite the extensive borrowing from foreign languages. The core of the language remains. So, any relationship PIE and Proto-Uralic could've had I'd place at least earlier in the Mesolithic era, not as late as the CHG/Iranian-related influx into the steppes by ~4500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if so, it were only the Anatolian or older languages, without wheel vocabulary, not Armenian and/or Greek
    I agree with this observation. Also, Greek and Armenian are too close to Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic to have split apart as early as the 5th milennium BC. That's also, though a little less prominently, true for Celtic, Italic and Germanic, which, especially in their earlier attestations, still share a lot of common vocabulary and grammar that you would expect only if they diverged much later.

    Or then those para-LPIE languages in Southeastern Europe did exist but were replaced by later Steppe IE languages. Hard to say. We can't also be sure that those immigrants to Southeastern Europe managed to not only preserve but spread their language. We can't simply assume that IE or in this case Early PIE or even Pre-PIE speakers got to impose their language onto others and absorb them every time they migrated, and not right the opposite. They actually could've even have shifted to another language or have already spoken another language even in the absence of any huge cultural shift. The case of the latest studies on the Bell Beaker phenomenon should have told us a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The influences on IE include the CAUCASIAN language family, so obviously there were people in the Caucasus and south of it who didn't speak IE or Proto-IE, so there's no reason that the CHG heavy but also ANF like people who went to Europe from Anatolia need have spoken IE languages, and in fact I highly doubt they did. See Bicicleur's post above.
    I always get confused by Caucasian language Argument. there is a line. above and bellow that line. For language too.
    When we say PIE is above the line (4900bc). Not 1000 years later whatever was moving from south, or/and southeastern, that had moved from 6000bc known in part as Ubaid, Ubaid-to-halaf , Ubaid-to-Uruk and Uruk, Leilatepe... ending probably in Maykop, has nothing to do with the PIE people that originated earlier and were overtaken. The small amount of people that remained, and there is always those that flee to safe heavens and remain , still spoke an IE that later translated to Hittite, which in this case came from the east (caucasus armenia) and not west.

    Its the problem of time that always bothers me. Above 4900bc a people and language. bellow that date another ones came.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    I dont think wheel is a good word for what you want to transmite as word Car would not be aswell.
    But do explain the wheel mantra again. I mean it, its always useful.
    Someone here explained once that wheel come from the word snail because in northwestern Iran ('oh again) there are crude wheel (rods) from 6th mileniium bc. Those things should really be slow to push/pull. Have no idea. Who knows.
    Anyway, i think linguistics is a bit like voodo or Nostradamus writings. Because written form is much later than population contacts over millennium in adjoining spaces.
    So...lots of grains of salt.
    It's not just a wild speculation. The thing is that, yes, languages borrow words, especially Wanderworts related to new technological devices (e.g. "computer", "smartphone"). But the difference between a widespread borrowing and a native word is that when it's a later loanword it comes together with all the sound rules expected for that source language where it came from. They borrow the word as it's spoken by foreigners, not as they would pronounce it if that word had already existed in their language since the beginning. Speakers don't borrow it and remember to apply all the sound rules that determined the phonetic evolution of their own language for centuries and even milennia before they adopted that word. So, you almost always can distinguish quite well if a word is a later loanword or a native language that underwent a regualr phonetic evolution during the history of the language. It's not just a baseless assumption.

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