Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.
.

Because it is relatively young and widespread, more useful for the origin of CTS9320 is to look at it's immediate parent clades:


1. E-CTS6377 includes Bulgarian from Stara Zagora area, also Greek Vlahopoulos with close STR matches and Medieval common ancestry with a Bulgarian. Vlachs are not native to Greece so Vlahopulos (his surname might be an indication of his origins) must have arrived from north relatively recently.
Andalusian cluster of Spanish CTS6377, not yet on Yfull, their distance to Bulgarian is around 2700 ypb, it's on 67 markers so not as reliable like it is on 111 but what is important is that they both share the distinct STR values of dys385=14-18 and GATAH4=10. So these values for CTS6377 are old and it is fully justifiable to look for them in CTS6377 candidates. One of very few such candidates from anonymous studies is an Ukrainian haplotype from Lviv area, it is highly likely he is also CTS6377. Other than him I have not seen any other good CTS6377 candidates.


2. E-S26015 , there is an isolated Ruthenian cluster that is positive S26015 and CTS2001 (who are on CTS9320 level) but actually seems ambiguous on CTS9320 itself.


3. There are some other clades under CTS9320 that seem to be very distant from others, some Ukrainian/Russian Z17107*, Z16988* etc.


It seems the expansion of CTS9320 might have began in Carpathian area, some clades migrating southwards through the middle of Balkan peninsula, some ending up in Greece. Among Asia Minor Greeks, in a study (The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization) where more STR markers are present (43) actually 2/3 of Asia Minor Greek V13's are certain to be CTS9320. These include Z17264 and Z17107>Z38456. In particular Z17264 seems to show a strong connection with Greeks. Other than Asia Minor Greeks, such haplotypes are found in Greek Macedonia, Ionian islands, Cyprus etc.
In addition
Italian clade CTS9320>S19928>BY20073 has a unique STR combination of dys385=17-21 + dys448=19
Cypriot V13 from Kyreneia 13 24 13 10 17-21 12 11 13 11 30 16 14 19 11 15 10 21 10 11 , this is sufficient to say he seems very likely BY20073. V13 is not common on Crete but one of very few available Cretan haplotypes looks similar to this one.


This clade is found among Albanians but that haplotype is very distant (possibly even 3000 years).


Also among Greeks from Cyprus it seems a second clade under S19928 might be found S19928>BY4518 due to some Cypriot V13's having matchup on dys385=17-18 + dys549=11 with Ruthenians.
In general though it seems that CTS9320, while present, is not dominant among Cypriot V13. It seems L241 might be most numerous of the V13 clades there. There is one Cypriot V13 on ftdna who hasn't tested SNP's but on 37 markers he fits as L241 and bunch of haplotypes from anonymous studies of Cyprus are connected to him, 3 % of all Cypriots.


Considering the percentage of V13 among Greeks very few Greeks have been tested for specific clades. But it seems the bulk of Greek CTS9320 came during post-Mycenaean collapse. And the same goes for Greek L241 (TMRCA 3200 ybp).
 
Hello Maciamo (or anyone knowledgeable :) ) I tested positive for A7136 according to yseq. Were would that put me on the pylogenetic tree please? Is it same as A7135?
 
Hello Maciamo (or anyone knowledgeable :) ) I tested positive for A7136 according to yseq. Were would that put me on the pylogenetic tree please? Is it same as A7135?

You are the A7136 from Malta? I think this clade has clearly an older connection to Greece. Quite possibly Minyan or Mycenaean. And actually a second V13 looking haplotype from Crete seems to have crucial STR matches with you. Number of markers is low but those are some specific values for both you and S19928 clade the other Cretan E1b seems to be connected.

Cretan haplotype matches with you on dys385=15-19 + dys19=14. Those values are all untypical for V13. He doesn't match on dys389i, he has 12. You have standard 13. But I'd say because of those unusual values there is a good chance you're related.

I say this with reserve because in this study there are only 12 markers but those specific markers seem to be more important for your clade.
 
You are the A7136 from Malta? I think this clade has clearly an older connection to Greece. Quite possibly Minyan or Mycenaean. And actually a second V13 looking haplotype from Crete seems to have crucial STR matches with you. Number of markers is low but those are some specific values for both you and S19928 clade the other Cretan E1b seems to be connected.

Cretan haplotype matches with you on dys385=15-19 + dys19=14. Those values are all untypical for V13. He doesn't match on dys389i, he has 12. You have standard 13. But I'd say because of those unusual values there is a good chance you're related.

I say this with reserve because in this study there are only 12 markers but those specific markers seem to be more important for your clade.

Many thanks for your reply Aspurg. My family name paper trail goes back as arriving from Sicily soon after the Sicilian Vespers rebellions (which Malta was part of at the time). I have been waiting a long time to see to which geographical areas it might be more familiar with. Maybe discovering deeper clades can give more concrete answers. I have matched on 12 markers two persons from South Germany (Baden baden), but I guess 12 Markers is not much to go by with. On a genetic distance of one it took me to Russia Ukraine Italy and Spain and Cornwall (England). So its a little erratic to say the least. Your insight makes it all the more interesting....thanks :)
 
Many thanks for your reply Aspurg. My family name paper trail goes back as arriving from Sicily soon after the Sicilian Vespers rebellions (which Malta was part of at the time). I have been waiting a long time to see to which geographical areas it might be more familiar with. Maybe discovering deeper clades can give more concrete answers. I have matched on 12 markers two persons from South Germany (Baden baden), but I guess 12 Markers is not much to go by with. On a genetic distance of one it took me to Russia Ukraine Italy and Spain and Cornwall (England). So its a little erratic to say the least. Your insight makes it all the more interesting....thanks :)

You're welcome.:) Well as I see it you are rightly classified as A7136 but you did not do SNP's below V13? It's of course recommended, but I think you most likely belong to the Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136>Y18675>Y18673>BY5423 , all members of this clade share a value dys19=14
with you, so that seems to be a value that separates BY5423 from other clades under Y18673. Closest to you on 67 markers is an Englishman.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18360/

So you see under E-Y18360
- Y18360* Chuvash
- A8458 Irishman, Puerto Rican, and also not on Yfull an Armenian
- BY5423 Bosnia, Macedonia. Not on Yfull also Bunyard from London and de Menezes from Brazil. This one from Bosnia belongs to an old family of Poblaćani-Vojinovići from Pljevlja area, their ancestor was a Christian Sipahi in 1608. Their origin might be from south (750 ypb distance with Macedonian).

Of these 3 clades only BY5423 has dys19=14, so it is an important value to look for when searching for cousins.
TMRCA of you Englishman and Brazilian might be roughly around 1500-1700 ypb. On 67 markers you have 14 differences with Englishman, 17 with Brasilian, but between themselves they only have 12 differences, as you haplotype seems somewhat more "mutated".

There is a Greek from Kastania who is A7136, but haven't seen his markers.
So generally with this anonymous Greek haplotype from Crete (Crete and Southern Aegean as designated in the study) possibly belonging there, this clade seems to have possible/likely connection to Ancient Greece.
 
You're welcome.:) Well as I see it you are rightly classified as A7136 but you did not do SNP's below V13? It's of course recommended, but I think you most likely belong to the Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136>Y18675>Y18673>BY5423 , all members of this clade share a value dys19=14
with you, so that seems to be a value that separates BY5423 from other clades under Y18673. Closest to you on 67 markers is an Englishman.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18360/

So you see under E-Y18360
- Y18360* Chuvash
- A8458 Irishman, Puerto Rican, and also not on Yfull an Armenian
- BY5423 Bosnia, Macedonia. Not on Yfull also Bunyard from London and de Menezes from Brazil. This one from Bosnia belongs to an old family of Poblaćani-Vojinovići from Pljevlja area, their ancestor was a Christian Sipahi in 1608. Their origin might be from south (750 ypb distance with Macedonian).

Of these 3 clades only BY5423 has dys19=14, so it is an important value to look for when searching for cousins.
TMRCA of you Englishman and Brazilian might be roughly around 1500-1700 ypb. On 67 markers you have 14 differences with Englishman, 17 with Brasilian, but between themselves they only have 12 differences, as you haplotype seems somewhat more "mutated".

There is a Greek from Kastania who is A7136, but haven't seen his markers.
So generally with this anonymous Greek haplotype from Crete (Crete and Southern Aegean as designated in the study) possibly belonging there, this clade seems to have possible/likely connection to Ancient Greece.

Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers
 
Aspurg,

This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.

Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!

Also, thanks, Maciamo for the tree!

Alan
 
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<delete double post>
 
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Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers


Glad I could be of help.:) Hopefully some other A1736's might pop up, especially in areas like Greece where one might expect them.


Aspurg,


This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.


Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania. For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita. :) About Ghegs or Tosks, I don't think there are many tested Tosks but going by scientific studies where are are larger Tosk samples BY4461 (recognizable by very high dys458=19/20/21) is common in both Ghegs and Tosks.


Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!


Yes I had you in mind. :) You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).
 
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Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania.

At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.

For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita. :)

Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.

Yes I had you in mind. :) You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).

Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.


@Teancum, I'm an admin at Albanian Bloodlines ;)
 
At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.


You're correct that they might have mutated independently as among many clades of various haplogroups often exists "instability" on certain markers, although considering general stability of this marker they might indeed be defined by it. These Dalmatians are not close to each other (on large number of markers) and they do share this value.




Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.

True, I thought you had ancestry from Oroshi, Kushneni, Spachi but I see now you're just distantly related to them.

Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.


That's true, I left both options open. I agree that 2000 years looks closer for BY4461, I remember Mirditas have a "modalish" haplotype generally. Well it is widespread among Albanians and diverse. Also there are some in central Serbia, among Macedonians, possibly/probably Bulgaria (they have 458=20 but they have dys447=26, also GATAH4=11), Szekely, one Romanian from both Cluj and Moldova (studies) and as I mentioned those Greeks from Smyrna. It seems absent among Greeks from Macedonia and Cyprus. 2 in Corinthia and 1 on Eubeia and 1 in Athens but these had Arvanites. Also on ftdna one Greek Doukas, related to him is one Turk from Bulgaria (9/67).




There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


-there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
-there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
-there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
-there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.:)
-Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.
 
Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.

Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.
 
There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


-there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
-there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
-there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
-there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.:)
-Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.

Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.
 
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Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.


Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.


Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.




Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.


It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.


Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).
 
Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.







Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).

The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.
 
Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.

The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.
 
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The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.
I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.
 
I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.

Did you mean to quote someone else? I don't see how anything I said contradicts anything you said. I never said there were no Albanians in the South or anywhere else, quite the contrary. Albanian speakers in regions that are not in Albania today have been historically assimilated into other linguistic groups.
 
The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.

Exactly, even the Matranga from southern Italy are of Arbereshe origin.

The etymology I proposed was for the Mataruge clan/population, not Matranga - and it might be just a coincidence. I am not a linguist so not able to expand more into it. However, we were speaking of two different unrelated families. Matranga had their territories between Durres and Vlore, while Mataruge trace their origins to Montenegro.
 
The Matranga (Albanian: Matrënga[1]) was an Albanian noble family during 13th and 15th centuries. Members of this family include local rulers, Byzantine officials and writers. After the occupation of Albania by the Ottoman Empire, part of the family emigrated to Italy and settled in the Arbëresh villages of Southern Italy, where they have continued to preserve the Albanian language.
There are many Arbëresh people in USA, especially in Louisiana with surname Matranga. Probably the surname Matraku used today in Albania is another form of this surname. Most famous, kapedan Shahin Matraku.
 

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