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Thread: Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You're welcome. Well as I see it you are rightly classified as A7136 but you did not do SNP's below V13? It's of course recommended, but I think you most likely belong to the Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136>Y18675>Y18673>BY5423 , all members of this clade share a value dys19=14
    with you, so that seems to be a value that separates BY5423 from other clades under Y18673. Closest to you on 67 markers is an Englishman.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18360/

    So you see under E-Y18360
    - Y18360* Chuvash
    - A8458 Irishman, Puerto Rican, and also not on Yfull an Armenian
    - BY5423 Bosnia, Macedonia. Not on Yfull also Bunyard from London and de Menezes from Brazil. This one from Bosnia belongs to an old family of Poblaćani-Vojinovići from Pljevlja area, their ancestor was a Christian Sipahi in 1608. Their origin might be from south (750 ypb distance with Macedonian).

    Of these 3 clades only BY5423 has dys19=14, so it is an important value to look for when searching for cousins.
    TMRCA of you Englishman and Brazilian might be roughly around 1500-1700 ypb. On 67 markers you have 14 differences with Englishman, 17 with Brasilian, but between themselves they only have 12 differences, as you haplotype seems somewhat more "mutated".

    There is a Greek from Kastania who is A7136, but haven't seen his markers.
    So generally with this anonymous Greek haplotype from Crete (Crete and Southern Aegean as designated in the study) possibly belonging there, this clade seems to have possible/likely connection to Ancient Greece.
    Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers

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    Aspurg,

    This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.

    Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!

    Also, thanks, Maciamo for the tree!

    Alan
    Last edited by Teancum; 19-05-18 at 00:21. Reason: Add information

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    <delete double post>
    Last edited by Teancum; 19-05-18 at 00:22. Reason: error

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers

    Glad I could be of help. Hopefully some other A1736's might pop up, especially in areas like Greece where one might expect them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teancum View Post
    Aspurg,


    This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.

    Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania. For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita. About Ghegs or Tosks, I don't think there are many tested Tosks but going by scientific studies where are are larger Tosk samples BY4461 (recognizable by very high dys458=19/20/21) is common in both Ghegs and Tosks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teancum View Post
    Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!

    Yes I had you in mind. You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).
    Last edited by Aspurg; 19-05-18 at 02:51. Reason: addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania.
    At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita.
    Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes I had you in mind. You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).
    Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.


    @Teancum, I'm an admin at Albanian Bloodlines ;)
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.

    You're correct that they might have mutated independently as among many clades of various haplogroups often exists "instability" on certain markers, although considering general stability of this marker they might indeed be defined by it. These Dalmatians are not close to each other (on large number of markers) and they do share this value.




    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.
    True, I thought you had ancestry from Oroshi, Kushneni, Spachi but I see now you're just distantly related to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.

    That's true, I left both options open. I agree that 2000 years looks closer for BY4461, I remember Mirditas have a "modalish" haplotype generally. Well it is widespread among Albanians and diverse. Also there are some in central Serbia, among Macedonians, possibly/probably Bulgaria (they have 458=20 but they have dys447=26, also GATAH4=11), Szekely, one Romanian from both Cluj and Moldova (studies) and as I mentioned those Greeks from Smyrna. It seems absent among Greeks from Macedonia and Cyprus. 2 in Corinthia and 1 on Eubeia and 1 in Athens but these had Arvanites. Also on ftdna one Greek Doukas, related to him is one Turk from Bulgaria (9/67).




    There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


    -there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
    -there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
    -there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
    -there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.
    -Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


    Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


    There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


    If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.

    Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


    -there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
    -there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
    -there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
    -there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.
    -Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


    Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


    There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


    If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.
    Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

    It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.
    Last edited by Leka; 21-05-18 at 02:01.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.


    Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.

    Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
    In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.




    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.


    It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.

    Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


    Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
    In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.







    Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


    Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).
    The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

    My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

    It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.
    The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

    One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


    If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

    I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.
    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 21-05-18 at 09:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

    My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.
    I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

    It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

    What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

    And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

    It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

    What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

    And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.
    Did you mean to quote someone else? I don't see how anything I said contradicts anything you said. I never said there were no Albanians in the South or anywhere else, quite the contrary. Albanian speakers in regions that are not in Albania today have been historically assimilated into other linguistic groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

    One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


    If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

    I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.
    Exactly, even the Matranga from southern Italy are of Arbereshe origin.

    The etymology I proposed was for the Mataruge clan/population, not Matranga - and it might be just a coincidence. I am not a linguist so not able to expand more into it. However, we were speaking of two different unrelated families. Matranga had their territories between Durres and Vlore, while Mataruge trace their origins to Montenegro.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Matranga (Albanian: Matrënga[1]) was an Albanian noble family during 13th and 15th centuries. Members of this family include local rulers, Byzantine officials and writers. After the occupation of Albania by the Ottoman Empire, part of the family emigrated to Italy and settled in the Arbëresh villages of Southern Italy, where they have continued to preserve the Albanian language.
    There are many Arbëresh people in USA, especially in Louisiana with surname Matranga. Probably the surname Matraku used today in Albania is another form of this surname. Most famous, kapedan Shahin Matraku.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

    It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

    What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

    And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.
    I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

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    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.

    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I don't want to harm anyone, but I have a question: Are today albanians really descendants of ancient illyrians? I fyes, what does this prove?

    I know, the illyrians have come to the West Balkans for 3000 years ago from north. The CTS9320 has broken into 6 main branches for 3000 years ago too. I think some of them move south with the illyrians, but other parts stay at home, or move west and became a part of the Hallstatt culture. 500 years later, with the celtic migration spread across Europe. This could be the second CTS9320 wave on the Balkans. I think the third came with the goths and the fourth with the slavs. It seems in the VII. century came a fifth CTS9320 wave, with the bolgars. And we think, the CTS9320 was also present among the cumans (Aspurg and me). Each wave had the same subclades. We need more accurate samples (BigY or Whole Genom Sequence, or other complete Y chr analysis) to clarify this image. Which subgroup was dominant in which wave.

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    Hi Maleth,

    I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

    However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

    Cheers
    Elton

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
    Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.
    Actualy there is one Z16663 confirmed found in Croatia recently, and another one highly probable, you can find them in FTDNA Croatia DNA resuls table.

    With sublcade Z43289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikulic33 View Post
    Hi Maleth,

    I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

    However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

    Cheers
    Elton
    Hi Mikulic33 Thank you for your insight. I sent you a pvt msg...hope it gets to you :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Hi Mikulic33 Thank you for your insight. I sent you a pvt msg...hope it gets to you :)
    Hi Maleth,
    I received your message and replied but I am not sure whether my reply got through.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Part of the E-V13 tree under the CTS9320:


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    Can you give me any information about Z16242 (Z5018)? I can't find anything about it.

    Also, Z16242 and L17's seem to have this connection in both Portugal/England, how so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).
    I think you are right about E-Z19851.
    I also observed a patern that certain clades under S7461, Y16729 and J-M205 have similar distribution and are found in the British Isles, the Balkans and the Persian gulf.
    What is more important is that many of those clades in the Persian gulf(f.e J-Y128487; E-BY5787) , have MRCA around 1600ybp and 1700ybp according YFULL.
    That's during the height of the Roman Empire and most probably, the single factor, why those clades are in the Persian gulf.
    During the reign of Trajan, 117ad, the Romans conquered Mesopotamia all the way down to the Persian gulf.
    Other clades, found in the Balkans, (f.e J-Y22059, the two Bulgarians under E-Z19851), have MRCA around 1000ybp.
    That's around the same time when the Vlachs first showed up in history and started migrating and assimilating into other ethnicities.
    Most probably, I have MRCA with my match around the same time as shown by the calculators.
    Interestingly, these clades are not found among the Albanians apart from J-M205 which is miniscule among them and most probably of Vlach origin.
    That goes well with the tribal history of the Albanians and that they were 'givers' rather than receivers (assimilating others).
    This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
    The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.

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