Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.
I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.
 
I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.


Yes, that's exactly what I said.
 
I don't want to harm anyone, but I have a question: Are today albanians really descendants of ancient illyrians? I fyes, what does this prove?

I know, the illyrians have come to the West Balkans for 3000 years ago from north. The CTS9320 has broken into 6 main branches for 3000 years ago too. I think some of them move south with the illyrians, but other parts stay at home, or move west and became a part of the Hallstatt culture. 500 years later, with the celtic migration spread across Europe. This could be the second CTS9320 wave on the Balkans. I think the third came with the goths and the fourth with the slavs. It seems in the VII. century came a fifth CTS9320 wave, with the bolgars. And we think, the CTS9320 was also present among the cumans (Aspurg and me). Each wave had the same subclades. We need more accurate samples (BigY or Whole Genom Sequence, or other complete Y chr analysis) to clarify this image. Which subgroup was dominant in which wave.
 
Hi Maleth,

I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) ;) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

Cheers
Elton
 
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.

Actualy there is one Z16663 confirmed found in Croatia recently, and another one highly probable, you can find them in FTDNA Croatia DNA resuls table.

With sublcade Z43289
 
Hi Maleth,

I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) ;) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

Cheers
Elton

Hi Mikulic33 Thank you for your insight. I sent you a pvt msg...hope it gets to you :)
 
Part of the E-V13 tree under the CTS9320:

kVqOYDo.png
 
Can you give me any information about Z16242 (Z5018)? I can't find anything about it.

Also, Z16242 and L17's seem to have this connection in both Portugal/England, how so?
 
Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).
I think you are right about E-Z19851.
I also observed a patern that certain clades under S7461, Y16729 and J-M205 have similar distribution and are found in the British Isles, the Balkans and the Persian gulf.
What is more important is that many of those clades in the Persian gulf(f.e J-Y128487; E-BY5787) , have MRCA around 1600ybp and 1700ybp according YFULL.
That's during the height of the Roman Empire and most probably, the single factor, why those clades are in the Persian gulf.
During the reign of Trajan, 117ad, the Romans conquered Mesopotamia all the way down to the Persian gulf.
Other clades, found in the Balkans, (f.e J-Y22059, the two Bulgarians under E-Z19851), have MRCA around 1000ybp.
That's around the same time when the Vlachs first showed up in history and started migrating and assimilating into other ethnicities.
Most probably, I have MRCA with my match around the same time as shown by the calculators.
Interestingly, these clades are not found among the Albanians apart from J-M205 which is miniscule among them and most probably of Vlach origin.
That goes well with the tribal history of the Albanians and that they were 'givers' rather than receivers (assimilating others).
This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.
 
This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.

Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.
 
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Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.

I've answered to you in the thread for the Vlach's origin so to not hijack this thread!
 
Maciamo: I believe I may be the BY6527 on your May 18, 2018 phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup E1b1b. Assuming I am correct, and I don't know whether it makes any difference, but my father's family was actually from Sicily. Until my father's generation (20th Century) they did not even consider themselves to be Italian.
In any event thought I would just point this out since I think it is possible that Sicily would be different than Italy in the Middle Ages.
 
The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880.

This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .
 
This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .

Z16663 = Y35953
See here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y35953/
 
Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?
 
Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?

I have explained it here.
 
These graphics are interesting. What is your sources ? On what basis have you made these trees ?
I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.
 
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.

I would be interested in learning more about this subclade (I just tested via YSEQ and I am E-Z16988*). I wanted to end you a private message as well, but for whatever reason, I am unable to do so (perhaps due to low post count).
 

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