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Thread: Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
    The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.
    Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.
    Last edited by Leka; 19-07-18 at 06:10.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.
    I've answered to you in the thread for the Vlach's origin so to not hijack this thread!

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    Maciamo: I believe I may be the BY6527 on your May 18, 2018 phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup E1b1b. Assuming I am correct, and I don't know whether it makes any difference, but my father's family was actually from Sicily. Until my father's generation (20th Century) they did not even consider themselves to be Italian.
    In any event thought I would just point this out since I think it is possible that Sicily would be different than Italy in the Middle Ages.

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    Middle Bronze Age. Can't figure out how to edit an error. Sorry.

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    The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880.
    This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
    Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
    They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomasV View Post
    This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
    Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
    They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .
    Z16663 = Y35953
    See here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y35953/

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    Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
    So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
    I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomasV View Post
    Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
    So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
    I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?
    I have explained it here.
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    These graphics are interesting. What is your sources ? On what basis have you made these trees ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.
    I would be interested in learning more about this subclade (I just tested via YSEQ and I am E-Z16988*). I wanted to end you a private message as well, but for whatever reason, I am unable to do so (perhaps due to low post count).

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    Quote Originally Posted by makisapoo View Post
    I would be interested in learning more about this subclade (I just tested via YSEQ and I am E-Z16988*). I wanted to end you a private message as well, but for whatever reason, I am unable to do so (perhaps due to low post count).
    I responded through PM.

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    Hi Maciamo, this is an amazing job you're doing!


    I have a question regarding PH1246 - branch of E-V13 that is for some reason not being talked at all on this forum. PH1246 > BY14151 was not included into your tree and that is a branch present only in Serb-Montenegrin clan of Vasojevici, as well as Bobani clan of East Herzegovina (Vasojevici claim Herzegovina origin so these are clearly related). But Vasojevici are not related to any other E-V13 populations living just next to them. For example Bjelopavlici (Serb-Montenegrins) and Kelmendi (Albanians) are E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377 >CTS9320>Z16988 and Kuci (Serb-Montenegrins) are E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183> S2972>Z16661. So Vasojevici, being not a CTS5856 but a PH1246 branch, have a common ancestor with these neighboring clans that is 4,5 thousand years old!


    How is that possible? Any explanation for this?
    Also, doesn't this very distant relation of E-V13 clans living next to each other confirm Balkan origin of E-V13?


    Thanks again!

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    Im at this point E-PH1246 as well, at least until my Big Y results show up next month...

    All I can find about this subclade is this Vasojevici talk and little else.

    Paternal side is from Calabria

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    My Big Y results also show me to be in the PH1246 > BY14151 subclade and my paternal line traces back to northern Andros, Greece. There is a small Arvanite community (Albanians who arrived to Greece in late Middle Ages). My paternal surname however is suspected to originate from Italy--Andros was once Venetian territory.

    PH1246 and its smaller clades (including BY14151) seem to be relatively less tested.

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    have you joined any of the FTDNA groups? My Big Y results are due any day and I am really curious as to where I land

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    My parents are from northwestern macedonia, about 3 miles from Serbia Kacanik border. My roots come from Urosevac and prior to that a village from Strpce municipality called Kostanjevo. I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880. Im rather frustrated because all from that area generally fall within a couple of the same subclades. So im wondering why would i be any different when im literally from the epicenter of E-V13. THOUGHTS comments appreciated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valbogdan View Post
    I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880.
    Isn't it possible that you aren't in a lower-level subclade?

    The subclades are groups of people that have inherited specific yDNA mutations from the parent clade. If your line's yDNA has not changed significantly (and heritably), wouldn't you still be in E-BY3880? Or is that clade too old to have possibly stayed intact?

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    Finding post-V13 branches

    Quote Originally Posted by Valbogdan View Post
    My parents are from northwestern macedonia, about 3 miles from Serbia Kacanik border. My roots come from Urosevac and prior to that a village from Strpce municipality called Kostanjevo. I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880. Im rather frustrated because all from that area generally fall within a couple of the same subclades. So im wondering why would i be any different when im literally from the epicenter of E-V13. THOUGHTS comments appreciated...
    I don't have an explanation, but the situation sounds familiar.

    Soon after my Walk-through-the-Y test in 2012 had detected what was at that time my single unique SNP, E-L1019, I had asked a Y37 of unknown origin (33/37 match), a Y31 from Bulgaria, and a Y31 from Greece who both matched me closely to take the E-L1019 single-SNP test. All three tests were E-L1019-, and now 6 years later: 1) the Y37 of unknown origin and the Y31 from Greece are both still E-CTS5856*, 2) the Y31 from Bulgaria remained E-CTS5856* for a time, but eventually tested Z5017+, Z19851+.

    Depending on the Y-SNP test you took, an available branch connecting you to the haplotree could be accessible in a test with greater coverage. The coverage of E-Z5017 and its subclades in the Big Y test is extensive, but my main branch E-Z5018 was not covered, but was covered in the Y-Elite test. The 2018 ISOGG tree still shows S2979, L17, A2192, Z17293 and Z16242 as independent subclades of V13 rather than as subclades of Z5018, and Z5018 is not shown anywhere in the haplotree.
    Last edited by vxr400; 15-11-18 at 03:31.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Z16242

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaser View Post
    Can you give me any information about Z16242 (Z5018)? I can't find anything about it.

    Also, Z16242 and L17's seem to have this connection in both Portugal/England, how so?
    I am one of the rare E-A160/Z16242+ from England, which is currently confined to a single family that traces its earliest-known-Y-ancestors to Felsham, Suffolk
    (1327-1570 in all 3 lines, producing 4 immigrant Y-descendants: 2 brothers (one Y-descendant of the younger brother is YF05423 in the YFull tree), one of their Y-first-cousins (YF05422), and one of their Y-second-cousins (YF05421), came to what is now the USA in 1635, 1634, 1645; respectively).

    All 3 immigrant lines are E-Z5018+, E-Z16242+, E-L1019+ (Z5018 was covered in my Y-Elite 2.0 test taken in 2015, but was not covered in Big Y test taken in 2013; E-Z5018+ was confirmed by YSEQ).

    The only other E-Z16242+ I am aware of at this time are:
    1) one anonymous 1000 Genomes kit (HG01107) from Puerto Rico with no stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor location, who is E-Z16242+, E-L1019-,
    2) two E-Z16242+, E-L1019- V68 SNP panel kits from Brazil; one of which has a stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor from Portugal.

    I am not aware that E-L17 or E-Z16242 have been found in the Balkans at this point, though other E-Z5018 subclades such as E-A2192, E-Z17293, and especially E-S2979 are found in the Balkans. The E-L17 observation is older; the E-Z16242 discovery and observation came after Lacan et al. published in 2011 their finding of ancient E-V13 on the Iberian Peninsula: "Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination."

    Admittedly even now 6 years into NGS-SNP testing it is too soon to say that E-L17 and E-Z16242 will never be found in the Balkans, but until they are, another possible theory has been that E-L17 and/or E-A160/E-Z16242 were brought to the Roman Province of Hispania by E-Z5018 carriers, possibly at a time after the encroachment of the Roman Empire into the Iberian Peninsula from 220 BCE onward.

    Regarding the latter possibility, I have been studying for the past three years the 833-page Ph.D. dissertation of the late Prof. Margaret Roxan (1924-2003; she was an expert authority on Roman military inscriptions): "The Auxilia of the Roman Army Raised in the Iberian Peninsula," and have seen so far: 1) one cavalry unit, Ala I Hispanorum, that has been attested at a number of sites that parallel contemporary sites where E-L17+ has been found so far in Germany and most notably in (Vlach)-Dacia/Romania, 2) two cavalry units: Ala I Hispanorum Asturum and Ala Hispanorum Vettonum, that were attested in Britannia/England before (A-H-Asturum may have been part of the original invasion in 43 CE), or at the time of (A-H-Vettonum) the destruction of the Roman retirement colony at Camulodunum; now Colchester, Essex (about 20 miles south of Felsham, Suffolk) during the Boudican Iceni Revolt of ~60 AD.

    (You_Tube video re-enacts the annihilation of the Legio IX Hispana and an attached cavalry unit in the Battle of Camulodunum NW of Colchester, Essex near Great Wratting, Suffolk and Sturmer, Essex):
    "Boudica: The Warrior Queen - Full Documentary" (42:09-44:36).
    Last edited by vxr400; 14-11-18 at 20:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyron View Post
    My Big Y results also show me to be in the PH1246 > BY14151 subclade and my paternal line traces back to northern Andros, Greece. There is a small Arvanite community (Albanians who arrived to Greece in late Middle Ages). My paternal surname however is suspected to originate from Italy--Andros was once Venetian territory.

    PH1246 and its smaller clades (including BY14151) seem to be relatively less tested.
    Im now E-BY14160

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    Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577
    Last edited by Xisco; 28-11-18 at 00:01.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

    E-V13 > E-Z1057 > E-CTS1273 > E-Z5018 > E-S2979 > E-FGC11457 > E-BY4914 > E-Y33577
    Last edited by Xisco; 28-11-18 at 00:02.

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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by vxr400 View Post
    I am one of the rare E-A160/Z16242+ from England, which is currently confined to a single family that traces its earliest-known-Y-ancestors to Felsham, Suffolk
    (1327-1570 in all 3 lines, producing 4 immigrant Y-descendants: 2 brothers (one Y-descendant of the younger brother is YF05423 in the YFull tree), one of their Y-first-cousins (YF05422), and one of their Y-second-cousins (YF05421), came to what is now the USA in 1635, 1634, 1645; respectively).

    All 3 immigrant lines are E-Z5018+, E-Z16242+, E-L1019+ (Z5018 was covered in my Y-Elite 2.0 test taken in 2015, but was not covered in Big Y test taken in 2013; E-Z5018+ was confirmed by YSEQ).

    The only other E-Z16242+ I am aware of at this time are:
    1) one anonymous 1000 Genomes kit (HG01107) from Puerto Rico with no stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor location, who is E-Z16242+, E-L1019-,
    2) two E-Z16242+, E-L1019- V68 SNP panel kits from Brazil; one of which has a stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor from Portugal.

    I am not aware that E-L17 or E-Z16242 have been found in the Balkans at this point, though other E-Z5018 subclades such as E-A2192, E-Z17293, and especially E-S2979 are found in the Balkans. The E-L17 observation is older; the E-Z16242 discovery and observation came after Lacan et al. published in 2011 their finding of ancient E-V13 on the Iberian Peninsula: "Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination."

    Admittedly even now 6 years into NGS-SNP testing it is too soon to say that E-L17 and E-Z16242 will never be found in the Balkans, but until they are, another possible theory has been that E-L17 and/or E-A160/E-Z16242 were brought to the Roman Province of Hispania by E-Z5018 carriers, possibly at a time after the encroachment of the Roman Empire into the Iberian Peninsula from 220 BCE onward.

    Regarding the latter possibility, I have been studying for the past three years the 833-page Ph.D. dissertation of the late Prof. Margaret Roxan (1924-2003; she was an expert authority on Roman military inscriptions): "The Auxilia of the Roman Army Raised in the Iberian Peninsula," and have seen so far: 1) one cavalry unit, Ala I Hispanorum, that has been attested at a number of sites that parallel contemporary sites where E-L17+ has been found so far in Germany and most notably in (Vlach)-Dacia/Romania, 2) two cavalry units: Ala I Hispanorum Asturum and Ala Hispanorum Vettonum, that were attested in Britannia/England before (A-H-Asturum may have been part of the original invasion in 43 CE), or at the time of (A-H-Vettonum) the destruction of the Roman retirement colony at Camulodunum; now Colchester, Essex (about 20 miles south of Felsham, Suffolk) during the Boudican Iceni Revolt of ~60 AD.

    (You_Tube video re-enacts the annihilation of the Legio IX Hispana and an attached cavalry unit in the Battle of Camulodunum NW of Colchester, Essex near Great Wratting, Suffolk and Sturmer, Essex):
    "Boudica: The Warrior Queen - Full Documentary" (42:09-44:36).
    hello, it's very nice to meet you! I am one of those Z16242+ L1019- and also Z2162- (the Puerto Rican guy's clade), so what you're saying gives me the idea that some iberians went to british isles and not the other way around, a long time ago. I've sent you a private message, and i'm looking forward to do my bigY, so far I bought V13Pack and Y67., My clossest match in Y67 is a guy from puertorico (distance -7 his clade is shown as E-M35, so he hasn't test any snp) and I have some americans in Y37 (distance -4 - not SNP tested either.)

    Edit: I've seen this other brazilian person who's E-Z16242, but I only match him at Y12 level, and nothing else, in other tests Y25/37/67 he's absent.

  24. #74
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-CTS6377
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    C1b-T16311C!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Thumbs up E-cts6377

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Because it is relatively young and widespread, more useful for the origin of CTS9320 is to look at it's immediate parent clades:

    1. E-CTS6377 includes Bulgarian from Stara Zagora area, also Greek Vlahopoulos with close STR matches and Medieval common ancestry with a Bulgarian. Vlachs are not native to Greece so Vlahopulos (his surname might be an indication of his origins) must have arrived from north relatively recently.
    Andalusian cluster of Spanish CTS6377, not yet on Yfull, their distance to Bulgarian is around 2700 ypb, it's on 67 markers so not as reliable like it is on 111 but what is important is that they both share the distinct STR values of dys385=14-18 and GATAH4=10. So these values for CTS6377 are old and it is fully justifiable to look for them in CTS6377 candidates. One of very few such candidates from anonymous studies is an Ukrainian haplotype from Lviv area, it is highly likely he is also CTS6377. Other than him I have not seen any other good CTS6377 candidates.
    I’m CTS6377. I testedNegative for CTS9320 for my Big Y (FTDNA). I see CTS9320 has substantial subgroups within it. I’m wondering if CTS6377 has other subgroupsbesides CTS9320?
    My kit number is 803702 and I’m part of the large M-35 FTDNAgroup they have. Is there one for SK888or lower, basically where we are.
    Anyway, I saw you were looking for terminal CTS6377 and I’mthe only one that I know of.
    Thanks!
    Asapiens

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by asapiens View Post
    I’m CTS6377. I testedNegative for CTS9320 for my Big Y (FTDNA). I see CTS9320 has substantial subgroups within it. I’m wondering if CTS6377 has other subgroupsbesides CTS9320?
    My kit number is 803702 and I’m part of the large M-35 FTDNAgroup they have. Is there one for SK888or lower, basically where we are.
    Anyway, I saw you were looking for terminal CTS6377 and I’mthe only one that I know of.
    Thanks!
    Asapiens
    Hello, I know of you, you are of this closely related Spanish-French cluster (3/67). You're not close to the Balkan cluster of Bulgarian (624175) and Greek (48544): 17/67, and they are 5/37 between themselves so Medieval times, I'd say Greek must have Vlach ancestry (also his surname suggests that).

    Thus far the Bulgarian sample is the lone non-CTS9320 CTS6377 at Yfull, and it would be very useful if you were to order YFull analysis (which is cheap), in order to determine the exact distance between you. Also you will surely form a new clade with YF09951 because you share multiple non-modal STR's such as dys385a=14, GATAH4=10, dys464a=13 despite not being close to each other.

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