Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

[Kaser]

I don't have an explanation, but the situation sounds familiar.

Soon after my Walk-through-the-Y test in 2012 had detected what was at that time my single unique SNP, E-L1019, I had asked a Y37 of unknown origin (33/37 match), a Y31 from Bulgaria, and a Y31 from Greece who both matched me closely to take the E-L1019 single-SNP test. All three tests were E-L1019-, and now 6 years later: 1) the Y37 of unknown origin and the Y31 from Greece are both still E-CTS5856*, 2) the Y31 from Bulgaria remained E-CTS5856* for a time, but eventually tested Z5017+, Z19851+.

Depending on the Y-SNP test you took, an available branch connecting you to the haplotree could be accessible in a test with greater coverage. The coverage of E-Z5017 and its subclades in the Big Y test is extensive, but my main branch E-Z5018 was not covered, but was covered in the Y-Elite test. The 2018 ISOGG tree still shows S2979, L17, A2192, Z17293 and Z16242 as independent subclades of V13 rather than as subclades of Z5018, and Z5018 is not shown anywhere in the haplotree.

hello, I'm trying to PM you, it says your inbox is full. thank you.

[TomasV]

An update.
Y111 put me in E-Z21371 (V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>E-Z16663>E-Z21371) . Big Y in progress .
Origin southern Moravia with paper trail to end 15th century .

[PaschalisB]

I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

cts9320.jpg
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.

[Nik]

I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

cts9320.jpg
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.

You're being sarcastic right?

[PaschalisB]

Why should I be sarcastic?

[Kelmendasi]

I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

cts9320.jpg
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.

I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

[PaschalisB]

I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

True, the origin could be in Bulgaria. But then who helped disperse the haplogroup in Central Europe and Germany?

[Kelmendasi]

True, the origin could be in Bulgaria. But then who helped disperse the haplogroup in Central Europe and Germany?

That would depend on subclade. For example certain clades under Z16988 seem to have possibly been carried by Celtic speakers. There are also other clades under CTS9320 which could possibly be linked to Central European cultures or Italo-Celtic groups. E-Z25461 seems to have an Italo-Celtic association based on Yfull.

[PaschalisB]

I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

And I can't understand why you don't see the resemblance of the distribution of I-M423 and R-M458. As you can see in the map, E-CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans and then in Central-Eastern Europe, both areas with high percentages of the two aforementioned haplogroups.

[PaschalisB]

That would depend on subclade. For example certain clades under Z16988 seem to have possibly been carried by Celtic speakers. There are also other clades under CTS9320 which could possibly be linked to Central European cultures or Italo-Celtic groups. E-Z25461 seems to have an Italo-Celtic association based on Yfull.

And how and where did it become Celtic?

[Kelmendasi]

And I can't understand why you don't see the resemblance of the distribution of I-M423 and R-M458. As you can see in the map, E-CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans and then in Central-Eastern Europe, both areas with high percentages of the two aforementioned haplogroups.

I do kinda see a resemblance with I-M423 considering that M423 also has a high frequency in the Balkans and is also spread across Europe at lower frequencies. Though, R-M458 is heavily concentrated in Eastern Europe, where it reaches its highest percentages.

[Kelmendasi]

And how and where did it become Celtic?

Can't exactly say how it became Celtic. We can assume that, based on current data, CTS9320 had origin somewhere in the Balkans (possibly Eastern-Carpathian area) from where it expanded. Some groups may have then entered Central Europe where they were picked up by the local cultures, such as the Hallstatt. As for where, possibly around the Northern Balkan border with Central Europe, depends.

[PaschalisB]

So there could have been multiple origins for different clades of CTS9320. Dacian, Celtic, Goth and Early Slavic?

[Kelmendasi]

So there could have been multiple origins for different clades of CTS9320. Dacian, Celtic, Goth and Early Slavic?

I do think that there are CTS9320 clades that are of Celtic or Daco-Thracian origin, or were present among them pretty early on and were involved in their expansions. However, I can't really think of any CTS9320 clade that could've arrived with the Slavic migrations.

[PaschalisB]

I do think that there are CTS9320 clades that are of Celtic or Daco-Thracian origin, or were present among them pretty early on and were involved in their expansions. However, I can't really think of any CTS9320 clade that could've arrived with the Slavic migrations.

I mentioned the Early Slavic migrations because of the relatively strong presence of CTS9320 in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and West Ukraine.

[Aspar]

I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.
cts9320.jpg
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.

I was thinking about the same for a while and I think your thinking is not far from the truth...
This particular subclade(but not only this one) looks like it might have to do a lot of things with the Pontic steppe and the north Black Sea coast.
As such, I am tempted to connect it with the Scythians and also because we have a confirmed E-CTS1273 Scythian from Moldova.
But what is a Scythian?
Looking at all these 'Scythian' samples and how different autosomally they were, it seems that the only Scythian about them was the culture they accepted. So in other words, these Moldavian Scythians were people native to the area and assimilated into the Scythian society.
Probably all of this wouldn't have been so important if it wasn't for the Slavs and most importantly the South Slavs!
Because one striking feature that distinguishes the South Slavs from the other groups of Slavs is the higher incidence of haplogroup E related subclades among the former but not quite. The Ukrainians and the Carpathian Slavs known as Rusyns also have a lot of E related subclades among them, around 10% if I am not mistaken.
Furthermore, the Northern Slavs were never known as Slavs or Sclaveni among their neighbors but were known as 'Wends', 'Veneti' 'Veni' etc.
The term 'Sclaveni' was only used by the Byzantines first and later on in history it became an accepted term for all Slavic speakers.
In this regard, am on the opinion that the term 'Sclaveni' is only valid for the South Slavs as they were the first recorded with that name.
Therefore, we have now two variables that distinguishes the South Slavs from the rest, first is the higher incidence of E related subclades and the second is the name...
Now you probably already know what I am thinking about so here is some food for thought...
Could the name 'Sclaveni' as they were recorded by the Byzantines, be a sum of the names 'S(a)ka' as for Scythians and 'Veni' as for Wends?
We don't know how the Scythians were calling themselves but we do know that many people including the ancient Persians have recorded them as 'Saka'!

For the Achamenids, there were three types of Scythians: the Saka tayai paradraya ("beyond the sea", presumably between the Greeks and the Thracians on the Western side of the Black Sea)...

Even the Albanians and the Romanians are using the term 'Shka' when talking about their Slavic neighbors which could be related to Scythians or S(a)ka!
As for the Wends, the term 'Veneti' or 'Veni' were largely in use by the ancient historians and the Finns are still calling their Slavic neighbors as 'Veni'!

[Kelmendasi]

I was thinking about the same for a while and I think your thinking is not far from the truth...
This particular subclade(but not only this one) looks like it might have to do a lot of things with the Pontic steppe and the north Black Sea coast.
As such, I am tempted to connect it with the Scythians and also because we have a confirmed E-CTS1273 Scythian from Moldova.
But what is a Scythian?
Looking at all these 'Scythian' samples and how different autosomally they were, it seems that the only Scythian about them was the culture they accepted. So in other words, these Moldavian Scythians were people native to the area and assimilated into the Scythian society.
Probably all of this wouldn't have been so important if it wasn't for the Slavs and most importantly the South Slavs!
Because one striking feature that distinguishes the South Slavs from the other groups of Slavs is the higher incidence of haplogroup E related subclades among the former but not quite. The Ukrainians and the Carpathian Slavs known as Rusyns also have a lot of E related subclades among them, around 10% if I am not mistaken.
Furthermore, the Northern Slavs were never known as Slavs or Sclaveni among their neighbors but were known as 'Wends', 'Veneti' 'Veni' etc.
The term 'Sclaveni' was only used by the Byzantines first and later on in history it became an accepted term for all Slavic speakers.
In this regard, am on the opinion that the term 'Sclaveni' is only valid for the South Slavs as they were the first recorded with that name.
Therefore, we have now two variables that distinguishes the South Slavs from the rest, first is the higher incidence of E related subclades and the second is the name...
Now you probably already know what I am thinking about so here is some food for thought...
Could the name 'Sclaveni' as they were recorded by the Byzantines, be a sum of the names 'S(a)ka' as for Scythians and 'Veni' as for Wends?
We don't know how the Scythians were calling themselves but we do know that many people including the ancient Persians have recorded them as 'Saka'!

Even the Albanians and the Romanians are using the term 'Shka' when talking about their Slavic neighbors which could be related to Scythians or S(a)ka!
As for the Wends, the term 'Veneti' or 'Veni' were largely in use by the ancient historians and the Finns are still calling their Slavic neighbors as 'Veni'!

The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations. The major clades of CTS9320 in the Balkans all seem to have been present there since the Iron Age. The Central European clades under CTS9320 are more linked to Celtic speakers whilst the Eastern ones could be linked to the Dacians considering that there is a link to the Carpathians. As far as I know, the E-V13 in Rusyns is of local Carpathian origin.

Though I'm not sure whether a link between the Saka and South Slavs is accurate or likely, there does seem to have been some Iranic influence in the South Slavs. I have read historians suggest that the Serbs and Croats were originally ruled by an elite which was of Iranic origin, this has been suggested by how both of these words have possible Iranic etymologies. They suggest that over time this elite began speaking Slavic and adopted Slavic culture and traditions. Though this theory links them to the Alans and not Saka. It is still a theory however and there are other possible etymologies of these ethnonyms.

"Shkja/Shkje" has nothing to do with the Saka people. There are 2 theories as to the origin of the word. One theory states that it comes from the Venetian word "Schiavone" which referred to someone who spoke an incomprehensible language, whilst the other states that it comes from the Latin "Sclavus" which was used to denote Slavs but may have originally referred to other foreigners. The fact that this word is used to refer to all foreigners in the Arbereshe dialect of Albanian, suggests that it wasn't originally used only for Slavs. Though, now it is used to refer to Serbs.

[Aspurg]

@PaschalisB Hey, what is your CTS9320 sublade? Most common in Greece is E-PH1173 subcluster of dys439=9.

Regarding CTS9320, to me looking at current evidence it resembles Basarabi culture. Parent clade E-CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria, this culture spread to the North to form much of subsequent Geto-Dacians. Especially looking at current situation it seems to have been common in core Dacian areas.

Second area of diversity is Central Balkan/Shop area also an area of Basarabi culture and subsequently associated with the Triballi.

Another area of diversity is Albania/Western Balkans. This is where maybe second option for CTS9320 might be explored: the Gava culture, which had movement to the South. Also what is interesting is that numerous Basarabi pottery was found in Illyrian Glasinac culture areas, so possibly some of these migrated there and formed part of this culture.

[Aspar]

The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations. The major clades of CTS9320 in the Balkans all seem to have been present there since the Iron Age. The Central European clades under CTS9320 are more linked to Celtic speakers whilst the Eastern ones could be linked to the Dacians considering that there is a link to the Carpathians. As far as I know, the E-V13 in Rusyns is of local Carpathian origin.

Though I'm not sure whether a link between the Saka and South Slavs is accurate or likely, there does seem to have been some Iranic influence in the South Slavs. I have read historians suggest that the Serbs and Croats were originally ruled by an elite which was of Iranic origin, this has been suggested by how both of these words have possible Iranic etymologies. They suggest that over time this elite began speaking Slavic and adopted Slavic culture and traditions. Though this theory links them to the Alans and not Saka. It is still a theory however and there are other possible etymologies of these ethnonyms.

"Shkja/Shkje" has nothing to do with the Saka people. There are 2 theories as to the origin of the word. One theory states that it comes from the Venetian word "Schiavone" which referred to someone who spoke an incomprehensible language, whilst the other states that it comes from the Latin "Sclavus" which was used to denote Slavs but may have originally referred to other foreigners. The fact that this word is used to refer to all foreigners in the Arbereshe dialect of Albanian, suggests that it wasn't originally used only for Slavs. Though, now it is used to refer to Serbs.

Thanks for the information about the word 'shkja'.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations.

Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...
That is an indicator of a migration in that period. Moreover, the brother clades and CTS9320* seem to have a lot of diversity up north from the southern Balkans...
That doesn't mean that some subclades of E weren't present in the South Balkans before the migration period, on contrary, many were as shown by that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.
But many clades also must have arrived with the Slavs as well in the migrations during the Medieval!

As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...

[Ownstyler]

Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...

It could very easily be just a bottleneck.

that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.

Any evidence of this? As far as I know, the person who claimed it to be E-V13 has not provided the SNP calls.

[Kelmendasi]

Thanks for the information about the word 'shkja'.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...
That is an indicator of a migration in that period. Moreover, the brother clades and CTS9320* seem to have a lot of diversity up north from the southern Balkans...
That doesn't mean that some subclades of E weren't present in the South Balkans before the migration period, on contrary, many were as shown by that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.
But many clades also must have arrived with the Slavs as well in the migrations during the Medieval!

As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...

The lower TMRCA of these clades could very well be explained by bottlenecks, as was suggested by Ownstyler. Many Albanian/Balkan clades have TMRCA which would date back to the Early Medieval period, examples are J-PH1751 and R-Z2705. As was stated by Aspurg, CTS9320 itself reaches highest diversity in the Central and Western Balkans as well as CTS6377* being found in Bulgaria. Should also note that most of the Albanian/Balkan clades only share a common ancestor with the other Europeans over 2,000 years ago.

I have yet to see a clade under E-V13 in the Balkans that can be associated with the Slavic migrations. I do believe that they may have brought some, but it seems to have been negligible, at least in the case of Albanians. The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.

[Aspurg]

The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.

It is likely found in few Serbs, they seem to match closely some Czechs or Slovaks from what I remember. Overall it's not apparent that some other clade spread with the Slavs. Though Rusyns have elevated V13 and also "E-M78" reaches 14 % in Ukrainian Zakarpatye from an unpublished study, Rusyn V13 seems local so likely descendant of Dacians, yet these do not have matches in the Balkans.

[PaschalisB]

@PaschalisB Hey, what is your CTS9320 sublade? Most common in Greece is E-PH1173 subcluster of dys439=9.

Regarding CTS9320, to me looking at current evidence it resembles Basarabi culture. Parent clade E-CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria, this culture spread to the North to form much of subsequent Geto-Dacians. Especially looking at current situation it seems to have been common in core Dacian areas.

Second area of diversity is Central Balkan/Shop area also an area of Basarabi culture and subsequently associated with the Triballi.

Another area of diversity is Albania/Western Balkans. This is where maybe second option for CTS9320 might be explored: the Gava culture, which had movement to the South. Also what is interesting is that numerous Basarabi pottery was found in Illyrian Glasinac culture areas, so possibly some of these migrated there and formed part of this culture.

I have tested negative for most sublcades of CTS9320, PH1173 included. I have a DYS439=13.

[Aspar]

It could very easily be just a bottleneck.

So many bottlenecks with a TMRCA in early Medieval? Strange coincidence...

Any evidence of this? As far as I know, the person who claimed it to be E-V13 has not provided the SNP calls.

I was referring to this: http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis...6.01_tree.html

[Aspar]

The lower TMRCA of these clades could very well be explained by bottlenecks, as was suggested by Ownstyler. Many Albanian/Balkan clades have TMRCA which would date back to the Early Medieval period, examples are J-PH1751 and R-Z2705. As was stated by Aspurg, CTS9320 itself reaches highest diversity in the Central and Western Balkans as well as CTS6377* being found in Bulgaria. Should also note that most of the Albanian/Balkan clades only share a common ancestor with the other Europeans over 2,000 years ago.

I have yet to see a clade under E-V13 in the Balkans that can be associated with the Slavic migrations. I do believe that they may have brought some, but it seems to have been negligible, at least in the case of Albanians. The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.

You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.
So, a tribe of Dacians, Illyrians etc. assimilated into Slavs but not necessarily assimilated and arriving with the Slavs in Greece and the Southern Balkans is not out of place.
And this is not just for clades under CTS9320 but other ones as well.
Look at this one for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/
It has three samples, Bosniak at the top of the tree and a Serb and a Bulgarian underneath.
It has a perfect timing with a TMRCA of 1400 ybp.
You want necessarily find northern Slavs in this branch but to me it looks like a clear indication of a migration in that turbulent period into present day Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria.
The Italian guy with a star (*) on a parallel branch is from Lodi in Northern Italy and it may look like this branch has to do with the Celts or the Illyrians living close to Italy!